Quote from 510N3D :

They are doing their thing and sharing it for a small amount of money.

Oooohhhh... DON'T say this. It depends a lot on how you look at it, and therefore it's probably also a neglected aspect in the debate if everything with the development is alright.

Example:

YOU joined in the very beginning, probably paid for S1 and enjoyed a physics engine that was superior to all other games for a while. Then you paid for S2 and had some more content. The superior "gameplay" was reason enough to overlook the things other games were better at (i.e. graphics, sound). It was an ok price at that time.
From then on your LFS was updated a bit now and then which was an added bonus considering the fact that a few years back the original S2 probably was almost up to date.
Bottom line, YOU've had a lot of product for the price YOU paid.

For the ones who bought S2 just a couple of weeks ago the reality looks a bit different. They paid the same price as you did years ago for a product that is only a tiny bit better than its predecessor... it actually IS its patched up predecessor. For them it's probably not an ok price anymore if things stay as they are. Sure, some don't think about this because it's only 24£ and it's under there "think before you buy"- or "thoughts on price/performance"-threshold.

An analogy: Buying S2 now is like buying a 2004 PC that has been modded to 2006 specs for the price of 2006... and then you wait for some free updates the salesman implied.

Or you buy Microsoft Flightsimulator 2002 heavily 'patched' to be something like FS2004 for the price of FS2004 a couple of months after its release, NOW. Great deal, hu?


Wow, I didn't want this to get so long.

Quote from Bandit77 :

*Just look at the part about updates*

Well actually, I think that the main reason people buy Live For Speed is for its awesome physics engine. And I actually like the fact that as Scawen said "LFS is meant to be a racing simulator, not a screenshot generator".
I am running on a computer (only 1 year old though), that is completely outdated to nowadays graphics in game, and I like the fact that LFS provides an reasonably fast graphic experience.

However, I tend to agree about the update ratio/price, which is favorable to the "oldtimers".
As some one posted above, some releases every now and then would be greatly appreciated.

I wish to say even once more that more communication is what we need between the LFS developpers and us. This will prevent this kind of threads to appear, and demotivation to grow up.
Someone should think about an interview, shouldn't they ?

Quote from Zen321 :

Someone should think about an interview, shouldn't they ?

An interview after that we wouldn't know anything more than we do now.

If the devs don't want to say anything about progress, they won't. They will if they consider it the right time and they won't let others force them to do so. It has always been like that and that is the right way.

I don't get about what bigger communication you are speaking. The bigger communication alwys started with the release of the first test patch where the users could find bugs etc. Before the release of a test patch Scawen was always very quiet.

Quote from zeugnimod :

An interview after that we wouldn't know anything more than we do now.

If the devs don't want to say anything about progress, they won't. They will if they consider it the right time and they won't let others force them to do so. It has always been like that and that is the right way.

I don't get about what bigger communication you are speaking. The bigger communication alwys started with the release of the first test patch where the users could find bugs etc. Before the release of a test patch Scawen was always very quiet.

I mean by that at least tell us a list of precise things they are working on. Scawen once posted a "to-do list" with a lot of features. We do not know what will be in the next patch. And zeug, for me, a test patch is the patch itself. There are some bugs that will be removed, but not the future content itself. So basically, once he tells us what is in the testpatch, he tells what will be in the patch (with a test period of around 2 weeks, but since we have the same content, then it is the same in my mind).

A post/announcement every now and then saying : "Hey what's up guys ? We have finished the Scirocco model, and halfway through a better collision system, thanks for being patient ! " would be greatly appreciated.
We have no communication, so even this little post (which takes 4 mins maximum to write/read/edit/reread/press post), would make a big difference, instead of saying "Hey, there will be a new car soon! in LFS", and then keep being silent for more than three monthes. At least, for the FBM, they announced it a couple of weeks before its release, as long as with the CMX viewer tool. We could expect the same for the Scirocco, but I suspect the dev team being held hostages by a group of crazy penguin terrorist somewhere in Antartica to give no news at all.

Quote from Zen321 :

...

Did you read my post?

It's fine that you want progress reports but it won't happen. No amount of begging posts is going to change that.

Quote from Zen321 :

A post/announcement every now and then saying : "Hey what's up guys ? We have finished the Scirocco model, and halfway through a better collision system, thanks for being patient ! " would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, I can see what will happen then. Most users will ask (demand) to release the new stuff shortly after the news...!

Scirocco is finished..? "Release it now, it´s done!"

Tweaked collision-physics..? "Release it now, it´s better!"

Some other minor incompatible features ready for release or done..? "Release it now, I like to do all my wr´s again...!"

No, thanks..

Quote from Zen321 :

Well actually, I think that the main reason people buy Live For Speed is for its awesome physics engine. And I actually like the fact that as Scawen said "LFS is meant to be a racing simulator, not a screenshot generator".

I totally agree. And, honestly, I even like LFS graphics for some reason (I totally hated NFSU(2) graphics. Overkill. Sensory overload).
It's just the price/content thing. But you totally got me there.

Quote from Zen321 :

A post/announcement every now and then saying : "Hey what's up guys ? We have finished the Scirocco model, and halfway through a better collision system, thanks for being patient ! " would be greatly appreciated.

Absolutely. But I have some ugly suspicion why it's not done...

Quote from VoiD :

Oh, I can see what will happen then. Most users will ask (demand) to release the new stuff shortly after the news...!

If that's the only downside...

Quote from Bandit77 :

If that's the only downside...

That is a VERY big downside.

Would you be happy if you say something and people lay words into your mouth to put you under pressure? It already happened in the past (it's even happening now, some people are talking about a delayed release of the Scirocco when the devs actually very clearly said that it will take some time until it is released) and is probably the reason why we don't get these progress reports.

That is a downside that would probably make the devs stop working on LFS, IMO.

Quote from Zen321 :

... instead of saying "Hey, there will be a new car soon! in LFS", and then keep being silent for more than three monthes.

Uhm, Scawen specifically said that the Sirocco would not be released anytime soon and that we would do best to just forget about it for the time being

You see, this is a perfect example of why the devs prefer not to say anything. No matter what they say or how precise they try to be in their statements, people will always twist and turn their words around.

what i feel is, the devs are working under an isolated environment, unaware of the competitions that are going to come up ahead, and somehow failed to keep their product competitive, either the speed or the way they are doing it.

i bet nobody here wanna see LFS die off, including the devs, everyone here and myself, but i really want to say is "LFS will eventually die off" what we are going to see if the development process keeps on like now. Nobody here kills LFS, it is the market that doing the job. LFS is an unfinished and underdevelopent product for sure, but that doesnt immunized itself from all types of competition, LFS is one of the product in the game market. competition doesnt just come from another good/great racing sim, instead all games and other alternatives that we can spend our spare time on are competition forces. u cant ignore the competition by just self lying and giving excuses like "oh, this is the way we do things", "we are happy with what we are doing now". i believe the devs dont want to see their own son dying, so i hope smthing will be done.

Replace 2006 with 2007/2008 and you have progress reports for as long as you can think of:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=13882

Quote from Kancel :

whole post

Wow.

Beautifully put. Couldn't agree more.

Oh, I don't think Scavier give a crap if their product is competitive or not. Even if everybody left and they had to do something else to live, they would probably want to keep working on it part-time or something. Eventually, I believe a final version of LFS will exist. The question is when, and what other stuff will be on the market at that point.

Currently, LFS 'survives' because there's nothing quite the same. Although iRacing has probably taken quite a lot of racers from LFS, the price of it and its 'this ain't a game folks' philosophy that's much harder than LFS's are drawbacks that make a lot of people want to stick to LFS. Besides, there are just people that love LFS and won't let it go (fanboiz :shy.

So you could say that the sole reason why LFS is still profitable is because it's a racing simulator, and that there's not a lot of competition out there. Again, I've said this a lot, but if a well known game maker decide to do a racing sim with the goal of beating LFS, it would be incredibly easy to do so.

Simple fact is, as long as they keep selling enough S2 licenses to be "content" with the revenue that provides, they are not going to be in ANY hurry to release S3 (which, let's face it, is the only way we'll get any significant volume of new content).

Unless we see a sudden rush of activity or communication or hype of a forthcoming patch/update/S3 alpha plan or similar, then we can assume they are still happy with the revenue from S2, and fair play to them.
If I were them I'd probably be doing exactly the same thing for a couple of reasons (just off the top of my head):
- S2 is a more attractive initial purchase price than S3 will be for a newcomer.
which has the additional benefit -
- The more people that buy S2, the more will be likely to buy S3.
- I could then just work at my leisure with zero stress except that which I put myself under, and let money roll in. Prepare things for when sales begin to drop off and then re-ignite interest when they do.

Quote from Dj-Aeri :

I need one of this many years ago...



And engine/brakes temperature...

Both of which are already in the suggested improvements log

Quote from sinbad :

...

You probably hit the nail on its head. And that's one of the reasons I sometimes feel a bit (really only a bit) short-changed... and I almost get sick of comments along the lines of "we have to be thankful to the holy trinity for what we've got" (exaggeration... but it's not that easy to hit the right degree in a foreign language )

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Both of which are already in the suggested improvements log

yeah, but for how many years already?

Much as I think LFS is rewarding to play and I don't begrudge a single penny I paid for it, I still feel that eventually it will just fade away and die.

Why? well most products do ultimately of course, but also because I don't feel it's being suficiently marketed to keep the influx of new users required to really make it become a solid final product. It's all well and good the devs saying they are happy with the pace of development but ultimately it's just too slow getting to final product status IMO. If it remains like this, eventually it's current user base will just get bored and move on, (new sims are being released all the time), and the devs will loose their revenue stream and development will ultimately grind to a halt.

That said, IF the devs manage to pull off a release of a final product in the near future that gets great reviews, they may well finally hit the jackpot and see sales rocket.

But, all products have their day and then fade away and even if LFS does manage to be a commercial success, ultimately that will happen to LFS too.

Quote from gezmoor :

because I don't feel it's being suficiently marketed to keep the influx of new users required to really make it become a solid final product.

The devs said that they don't want to actively market LFS before it is finished, IIRC.

Quote from gezmoor :

Much as I think LFS is rewarding to play and I don't begrudge a single penny I paid for it, I still feel that eventually it will just fade away and die.

Why? well most products do ultimately of course, but also because I don't feel it's being suficiently marketed to keep the influx of new users required to really make it become a solid final product. It's all well and good the devs saying they are happy with the pace of development but ultimately it's just too slow getting to final product status IMO. If it remains like this, eventually it's current user base will just get bored and move on, (new sims are being released all the time), and the devs will loose their revenue stream and development will ultimately grind to a halt.

That said, IF the devs manage to pull off a release of a final product in the near future that gets great reviews, they may well finally hit the jackpot and see sales rocket.

But, all products have their day and then fade away and even if LFS does manage to be a commercial success, ultimately that will happen to LFS too.

I seriously doubt that the devs would just stop working, release a patch which only changes the name from Alpha to Final so nobody can complain and say "no more LFS coming".
There's a cash cow waiting to be milked. They could forget physics and code stuff and "just" release 3 or 4 new track environments, 5 or so new cars and boom, big payday, even it were just 10% of S2 license holders upgrading, but I imagine the real figure could be a lot higher. They would be absolutely crazy, having come this far, to not get what they can from it.

I don't fear for the future of LFS, but I'm pretty damn tired of waiting for updates, so I don't any more. It's blatantly obvious they're not in a hurry to provide me with nice shiny new things
We're already basically at an environments per year ratio of 1:1, productivity on a scale which leaves me on tenterhooks. Stuff flying thick and fast, you never know what's coming and when. It's a rush.

It should be common knowledge now that the dev's DO NOT RUSH anything, and have said manyatimes that they're in no rush to get <feature> out.

Just don't mention us cows... :hide:

Anyway! Back on topic, they're probbably working on some new features to compliment the Scirroco, but who is to say? Either way, all these people waiting around are going to be dissapointed because no-one can rush the Devs' work.

Quote from zeugnimod :

The devs said that they don't want to actively market LFS before it is finished, IIRC.

Well then it's a catch 22 situation. Without new people becoming aware of its existence LFS will not continue to bring in enough money to continue its development. Without development, ulitmately it won't attract enough new people who want to pay for it as it slowly becomes more and more dated compared with modern games on the market.

Without development, (eventually), you get no revenue stream, without revenue you get no development.

Point being, even what few competitors LFS has are catching up in the areas that LFS always had the advantage, (ie the physics). Once other sims surpass LFS in terms of physics, there is only so far that being "cheap" will attract people to the game as it continues to get dated compared to the competition. Put it this way, would you pay for LFS if it had CGA graphics even if it did have a perfect physics model? I would suggest only a very small minority of people would, (even of those interested in driving sims), let alone the general game playing public.

Quote from gezmoor :

Part about graphics.

As I said before, the graphics-addicted are not the market LFS aims for. Live For Speed aims for racing enthusiasts. That is why if Live For Speed improved drastically its graphics engine, it would not change much the increase in subscribers nor would it make the racers happy, because it is a "formal" upgrade, not a "fondamental" upgrade.

It is true that when you change the packaging of a product, it creates some enthusiams, but when people realize that they are not that happier with the package (everywhere in the world but the US ), they come back in the same state they were in.

The fondamental upgrades Live For Speed needs are physics and content. The physics are pretty decent now, but adding new content would definetely buy the devs some more time to work on the physics. For instance, an original venue (narrow, twisty track/kart track/etc), with the car that is the best for it (LMP or WRC or go-kart), would make racers focus on it, and not on the lack of development.

Quote from some guy in the previous page :

LFs is not gonna change because it has never changed

Maybe it has never changed, but why shouldn't it ? If you read carefully my post about the lifespan of a firm/product, you'll see that change isn't only beneficial, it is mandatory for the healthy life of a firm/product. LFS gets changes pretty often and this results with a boost of subscriptions that day. However, if the change was made about the team (like an increase in number), this would work as an investment : Scavier might sacrifice a bit of its quality of work environment, but on the other hand, LFS would develop faster and Scavier will acheive faster their goals and their dream to make LFS the best racing simulator ever.

Scavier have a goal. That means not rushing to get piss poor releases out early, which is what would happen if they got extra 'help'. It would become rFactor and that is a big no no.

Quote from Bandit77 :

Oooohhhh... DON'T say this. It depends a lot on how you look at it, and therefore it's probably also a neglected aspect in the debate if everything with the development is alright.

Example:

YOU joined in the very beginning, probably paid for S1 and enjoyed a physics engine that was superior to all other games for a while. Then you paid for S2 and had some more content. The superior "gameplay" was reason enough to overlook the things other games were better at (i.e. graphics, sound). It was an ok price at that time.
From then on your LFS was updated a bit now and then which was an added bonus considering the fact that a few years back the original S2 probably was almost up to date.
Bottom line, YOU've had a lot of product for the price YOU paid.

For the ones who bought S2 just a couple of weeks ago the reality looks a bit different. They paid the same price as you did years ago for a product that is only a tiny bit better than its predecessor... it actually IS its patched up predecessor. For them it's probably not an ok price anymore if things stay as they are. Sure, some don't think about this because it's only 24£ and it's under there "think before you buy"- or "thoughts on price/performance"-threshold.

An analogy: Buying S2 now is like buying a 2004 PC that has been modded to 2006 specs for the price of 2006... and then you wait for some free updates the salesman implied.

Or you buy Microsoft Flightsimulator 2002 heavily 'patched' to be something like FS2004 for the price of FS2004 a couple of months after its release, NOW. Great deal, hu?


Wow, I didn't want this to get so long.

He has a point except its 2008 and the content is still 2004 for the most part