Quote from axus :

If you don't heal-toe, it's difficult to get all your braking done, be in 2nd, and with the clutch released when you go into the corner. So you can go through most of the corner with the clutch pressed and do the rev-matching as you start applying power to leave the corner. Then you can release the clutch. It has obvious disadvantages performance-wise, but it's safe and easy. That's how I was taught by my dad anyway and it's never gotten him into a slide... and he used to drive a RWD Lada while we were in Bulgaria, on icy roads there.

I find this hilarious. You just spent a whole post trashing me because i'm not backing up my knowledge or regurgitating what someone has told me. Now when its your turn to explain, you simply say "my dad taught it to me and he's never slid so he must be right." I find that funny don't you? I've had first hand experience taking corners with the clutch in and sliding through them. I know for a fact that being in gear during a turn is the safest way to take it because i've EXPERIENCED both ways.

Second of all sgt.flippy is right. (I gather that you agree with me about not keeping the clutch in through a corner?) You get your braking and shifting done BEFORE the corner, and then turn and continue on. It is not hard at all to get all of that done before turning. Sometimes i heel/toe, sometimes i don't, i've never had a problem braking before a turn. You should always be in gear in a turn which goes back to my original argument. There is no reason for having the clutch in during a turn.

Last edited by ans7812, Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:00.

Quote from AndroidXP :

The thing is, there are people out there who eat them as a whole, or even much much hotter things than that. What the point of that is? No idea, it's not like you taste anything but "hot" anyway - probably has to do with compensating for something or so...

However, I can share the best methods to get rid of the hotness, which are
1) Milk, and/or
2) Chocolate

Don't ever try water, it will just spread the hot stuff in your mouth and not make anything better.

I like spicy foods and eat hot peppers and such raw. My mouth doesn't go numb so i actually taste the pepper. I love the tingly feeling you get when you eat a spicy food. Thats my reason for liking them

Quote from ajp71 :

Oh dear... what theory have you come up with as to why the car will magically spin? I'd love to hear it, unless your right on the limit and the loss of power results in a shift of weight distribution to the front or the change in locking in the diff causes an issue. In any case declutching will have far less of an effect on stability than lifting off the throttle. There are reasons for not declutching round a corner such as the fact it's a bad mechanical practice to needlessly declutch, putting a level of stress on the clutch and drivetrain for no reason and it's needless effort. The real reason though is if some idiot lets the car come to idle with the engine declutched then suddenly clutches again locking the rear wheels, giving him an extreme case of guess what, lift off oversteer!

I already gave the explanation as to why depressing the clutch in a turn on wet/slippery roads. I also gave you first hand experience as to what happened when i did the wrong thing. I am surprised that someone like you, who races in real life does not know this common bit of info.

-1 until a damage model is implemented. A working damage model is more important
+1 after a damage model is implemented

Quote from tristancliffe :

Um, no. It doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Have you got Skip Barber's book? May I suggest a read is in order?


Again, no. Whilst driving normally on the road, you can do what you damn well like with the clutch. Coast through any corner with absolutely no chance of anything untoward happening (other than being in the wrong gear later, and holding up learners). Pressing the clutch whilst driving normally (or lifting off the throttle) won't do anything bad.

I hate to rain on your parade but no, you are the one that is wrong. And yes, what i said is the reason for not depressing the clutch in turns. Granted on any normal day where the roads are free of debris and water, depressing the clutch will most likely cause nothing bad. Given a wet, slippery road surface, what you said is wrong, and there WILL be issues if you depress the clutch during the turn. Why am i arguing with you when it is clear that you are the one in need of a read?

Quote from ajp71 :

Yes and the wheels will choose to spin at the road speed, meaning they are going to slip a lot less than if you just lift off the throttle. If you declutch you will be decelerating slowly, the deccelerative force will be made up of the rolling resistance and drag, which is considerably less than if you include the engine braking force of releasing the throttle, the result being a little bit of weight transfer to the front and no tire slip rather than a huge weight transfer to the and massive tire slip. What you want is weight transfer to the rear and little wheel slip so witch action gives you the best result? Of course the answer to this question may change depending on the situation but it usually involves holding or adding a bit of throttle and never involves leaving the pedals alone. This is a really silly myth that will never seem to go away even if you've gone past the point of being able to hold a slide you can still do something to minimize the results of the spin, be they simply putting the clutch in so you can get the car out of danger when you've regained control or applying a bit of brake to stop the car shooting backwards into the path of another car or wall or even to just accepting it's going to be a biggie and turning it off. This whole attitude of just trying to teach what is 'safe' to tell someone really pisses me off, as did the driving theory about car control, if you're going to tell someone not to put the clutch in you then have to tell them what to do, else they'd be safer just putting the clutch in

I think the conflict arises in your misunderstanding my posts. I'm not talking about clutching in during a slide or a spin or anything like that. Read my last post. My point is, in general, while driving normally, be it on a track or not, going through a turn with the clutch in is not a sensible thing to do.

Maybe you're right about depressing it during a slide, maybe you're wrong. Thats not the point. I'm not talking about doing anything with the clutch during a slide. Thats a whole other story that you are confusing with my scenario.

Lol. and give up fighting for the truth? AndriodXP said the most sensible thing so far. He stated that it entirely depends on the circumstance and he is entirely correct. It's not right to say you should ALWAYS do this or ALWAYS do that. We are all wrong. Lets drop that argument and continue with the next stupid one.

I will say one thing. Depressing the clutch in a turn is NOT the right thing to do. Anyone who knows anything about driving a standard knows this. And ajp, before you start talking about your Porsche friend, I am not talking about emergency situations. When you drive around town or even on the track, any racer/driver knows that turning with the clutch in is not a good idea.

Quote from ajp71 :

Well if your spinning from disengaging drive then you clearly already need that throttle to keep the car balanced and if you're not on the limit of adhesion you shouldn't have an issue.

No. I slid because by depressing the clutch, essentially you are disengaging the transmission from the engine and allowing the drive wheels to spin freely with no resistance (engine). Because of the wet surface and the ability for the rear tires to spin freely, the rear got loose and i started to slide. That is why depressing the clutch in a turn is bad because it lets the drive wheels spin free.

Quote from ajp71 :

No if you read it all that was caused by lifting his foot off the throttle, and not declutching, exactly what you reckon you should do. Had he declutched it would probably have been catchable.

What are you talking about? I was not referring to your situation at all. I was referring to the first part of you post, not your experience.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I agree with the clutch comment - can help stabilse a sliding car.

If you car starting sliding because you pressed the clutch whilst driving at a sensible speed might I suggest you look at your wheel alignment!

You misunderstood. I was already IN the turn and made the mistake of pushing in the clutch during the turn.


@last post. Yes, obviously you wouldn't want to release the clutch like that because it will throw the balance of the car off. Thats not what i'm talking about. I'm saying, you should have no reason to put the clutch in during a turn anyway, you should already be in gear and braking/have braked already. Pushing the clutch in during a turn at any significant speed especially on a wet road surface like i experienced, is recipe for disaster

Quote from sgt.flippy :

No, you hit the clutch while in the corner, but when you're starting to slide they told me it's best to dump the clutch. Because it will indeed regain grip more easily than loaded wheels.

Dumping the clutch means letting it out quickly and rapidly. (taking your foot off the clutch)

Quote from sinbad :

No, just lifting is worse. At least whilst declutched you have a neutrally balanced car and driven wheels which will more quickly attempt to match the speed of travel. Rather than effectively braked driven wheels and a front heavy car.

No, having the clutch in during a turn is the first thing you are told NOT to do when driving a standard. THAT is something i HAVE experienced.

Again rainy day. Only had my permit, was driving a standard on public roads for the first time. I wanted to make a left turn, not speeding or going too slow, normal turning speeds. Made the mistake of depressing the clutch just after i turned in and PHEWWWWWW the ass slides out, countersteered, the car straightened out no problem and we kept going.

Quote from AJS :

All i can say is when you will face such a situation you will not think about theory you will just do what your guts tell you

Not so long ago i experienced some sudden unexpected oversteer with my BMW 318is.

I drove onto the Autobahn and it just started to rain. The tarmac was very slippery and different layers which had been repaired ... so old and new tarmac there. A bit downhill as well.

I was driving through the turn and suddenly lost the rear ... i was doing 80 kmh already.

I think i had almost a nice 45 degree slip angle and a vision of my car kissing the armco. Then my arms magically did rotate by themselves and i modulated the throttel a bit (i think first a bit off the gas then stepped on it just a tad).

End of story : car straight and safe ... nothing happend

You're right. Why don't we stop arguing, continue to do what we've been doing, and then share our experiences of what happened. I'm sure we will all be fine. You do what you have been doing, I'll do what I've been doing. It has seemed to work for me all this time so i see no problem in continuing to do so. Nothing serious has happened to me and I have never been in an accident. I'm sure your methods work for you. I hope none of us find ourselves in a life or death situation on the road. Safe driving.

Quote from sinbad :

The best way to make a sliding or spinning tyre regain traction is to match its rotational speed to the speed of travel as closely as possible. Simple lifting off everything and steering the car straight doesn't do this, and it makes the car so unstable, when grip does come back it will come back with a bang. A large number of times, when you see people overcorrecting or fishtailing from side to side it's because they just let go of the throttle. It's even better to declutch and steer it straight than just lift off everything, but I wouldn't do that either myself.

Pushing in the clutch is the worst thing you can do.

Quote from ajp71 :

Oh god... how many times do we have to go through this? Even if the oversteer isn't caused by removing the throttle adding some can still help because when you apply power weight is still shifted to the rear of the car.

If your going to ignore Tristan and I then fine but at least listen to Axus because not only does he have a good understanding of what's going on but can explain it in terms of simple physics.

By adding throttle while sliding in the snow, sure it will shift weight to the back but it will also spin the tires faster and therefore make it unlikely to gain traction, especially in snow! Take your car out when it snows for gods sake. Slide it. Now while in the slide, add a little bit of throttle! or however much you think you need! You will notice that if there is any significant snow cover, your tires will spin! I understand the physics, you need to understand reality.

Quote from ajp71 :

Well if the engine is already idling how do you suppose it's going to have an engine braking effect?

My point exactly. If you are turning a corner on snow covered ground, and start to slide as a result of LOSS OF TRACTION because of the snow (turning too sharply etc.) not THROTTLE LIFT OVERSTEER, applying more throttle won't do anything because the car is ALREADY in the SLIDE. There is no SEVERE weight shift to begin with so adding throttle will only SPIN the tires even MORE.


As an aside (has nothing to do with this topic). Was driving in town today, pretty heavy rain. Waiting at a light, light turns green, about to make a left, some guy in a little crap car comes flying down the street i want to turn on, realizes the light is red, slams the breaks and tries to turn right to get out of the way. Wheels cocked hard right, slamming on the brakes only made him slide perfectly straight. Almost hit me, as soon as he let off the brakes the car turned right. Perfect example of how braking at 100% and turning at 100% is not a good mix.

Last edited by ans7812, Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:18.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Yes it can. Both are fine. I can lift off in any car at 150mph or 30mph and know I will be okay. The difference is in turning whilst doing it, and the same would apply if you are near the limit, either at 150 or 30. Of course, you have less time to react, but the effect of engine braking whilst on the limit will be the same.

@Your previous post. I thought you were a mature adult but now I am questioning myself after reading that response. I, in no way was trying to sound "better" than anyone. My point was that i've had experience, and know what i need to do in a situation. It was a really childish way to respond.

@Your last post. Get going at 20mph. Put your Miata in 5th gear. Now let go of the gas.

Now get going at 20mph again. Leave your car in 1st gear. Now let go of the gas. If you tell me that the braking is the same in both situations, there is a problem here...

Quote from Shotglass :

no it does not because during a donut there barely any fonrt/back weight shifting going on and the bit that is going on does have no effect on car handling whereas at speed the situation is completely different

The front/back weight shifting is so minimal in every day driving that it probably equates to that of doing a donut. Obviously under racing conditions there is a lot of engine braking because of its high rotating speed. Driving at 35 mph in 4th gear and lifting off the throttle can in no way be compared to lifting off at high speeds before a turn.

Quote from ajp71 :

Yes and you were saying you had been taught/it's best to lift in any situation, when in the vast majority of times the best thing to do is to either add power, hold power steady or gradually back off. I'm still struggling to find a circumstance where lifting your foot off the throttle isn't about as appropriate as retracting your undercarriage if your coming into land a bit fast

I'm not sure if it is correct to think about it this way but try this. You're doing a donut. Spinning around la dee da da. Now you want to stop doing a donut. Do you add more power? No. You take your foot off the throttle. Whoa the car stopped spinning. It works the same way under less extreme circumstances. (Yes i know this is a very extreme way of thinking about it)

Quote from ajp71 :

Your still talking as though you are absolutely certain you are going to hit something and nothing you can do will either let you avoid it or choose to go into something slightly less hard. Admitably if you are heading towards a 12 foot high concrete wall and have a little bit of oversteer you probably don't want to try and pull the car straight, in the circumstance your talking about you want to do anything you can to remove energy from the car so spinning will actually help you to slow down, of course we're assuming there's nothing we can do to change the angle or way we hit this wall. Then you should probably consider killing the engine and sitting back and relaxing.

If you've got any chance of not hitting something, hitting a less hard object or even if your destined to hit something but can change how hard you're going to hit it, which in reality is 99% of the time then it would probably be wise to attempt to keep control of the vehicle. If by applying throttle you can gain control of the vehicle you can then have a far greater chance of steering round your problem or if that isn't possible you'll then be able to brake effectively and be likely to loose a lot more energy in the long run than if you had just let it spin for fear of adding power, haven't thought this through have you?

Unfortunately what you were told was the 'safe' method, in that otherwise some unintelligent idiot will end up crashing because either they stand on the throttle or decide to speed up when they think the car is sliding. It's like the advice on what to do when a trailer starts to sway, the old advice was to gradually speed up pulling the trailer straight, which makes sense, to gentle braking, which sounds pretty suicidal to me, no doubt this was changed on the basis that it's better to give incompetent drivers advice that results in a smaller accident rather than try to trust them to use common sense to prevent a crash. Unfortunately law suits are a plenty in the US, so no doubt that makes them careful what they tell you. Likewise the standard of driving in the US is very different, having recently been there I found drivers to generally be much more courteous and sensible than drivers in the UK, granted you have less traffic and bigger roads but generally the driving was much less aggressive, things like 4 way crossroads just wouldn't work in the UK because no one would ever be polite and fair on them, likewise your pedestrian crossing system and general respect for pedestrians is excellent.

However you can't park to save your lives and worst of all your general standards of car control and spacial awareness seem to be pretty non-existent, and driving around in overly power assisted automatics removes a lot of room for driver control of the vehicle, and for this reason you've obviously been taught to do something that will not help you to gain control of your vehicle, quite the opposite, but something that will remove the risk of you ending up doing something far more stupid.

Thanks for writing the long response but i got to paragraph 2 until i just had to stop. Of course everything you said is true assuming what you said, "If by applying throttle you can gain control of the vehicle you can then have a far greater chance of steering round your problem or if that isn't possible you'll then be able to brake effectively and be likely to loose a lot more energy in the long run than if you had just let it spin for fear of adding power, haven't thought this through have you?"

Yea sure, thats assuming that adding power corrects the skid =].

And before you make ridiculous assumptions that you can in no way prove correct, i will help you out. I've been driving go karts, tractors, trucks and other machines since the age of 5 and am fully capable of controlling a vehicle. I don't drive an "overly powerful automatic." I drive a 5 speed Jeep Wrangler Rubicon and know fully well what it is, and is not capable of. My father built a 1966 427 AC Cobra replica and if you want to learn about car control and correcting skids, that is the car to learn in (in a safe environment) because it is incredibly easy to spin. Plus, the fact that there is no power brakes and no power steering makes it even more difficult to correct. There is no point in me arguing in this thread anymore. I've been in slides, i've recovered them. I know how to control cars on both ends of the spectrum and i don't need you to tell me i'm doing something wrong when my methods have been working fine.

Last edited by ans7812, Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:21.

Quote from Nathan_French_14 :

Well i did'nt say i know everything because i race so i dont know where you got that from, but i was talking about FWD oversteer. Putting on power WILL help to correct the oversteer on a FWD car, providing you apply the right ammount of steering to go with it. Putting throttle on oversteer from a RWD car helps to, whenever im in my dads car (RWD cossy) and he gets the back end out, he always applys throttle whenever he wants to keep the slide going or if he wants to straighten it out. Applying throttle to RWD or FWD can help, depending on the circumstances.

Edit: I just thought, are you sure your not talking about understeer? Because when you get understeer, letting off the throttle abit or completely does help then.

Exactly...depending on the circumstance, if you're in an emergency why would you want to power on and total w/e it is that you were heading for?

and btw, that comment about racing in real life was not directed at you.

Also i should be more clear about what the instructor was doing. If the lift throttle over steer did NOT produce a slide, THEN he would pull the handbrake for a second.

Quote from Nathan_French_14 :

if you lift off completely, does'nt that like cause the wait to transfer, thus making you spin or something? If im wrong, forgive me. The only RWD car i have drove was an old 318i and an old sierra and i was only pottering them around a car park

But if you're already skidding it doesn't make a difference! Thas what no one is understanding. I don't care if you think you know what you're talking about because you race in real life. If you're caught in the middle of a skid, and need to correct it, get your feet off everything and countersteer. Why the hell would you want to add power if you're sliding 90 degrees towards a parked car on the other side of the street?

Quote from wheel4hummer :

So you're suggesting that if I begin to oversteer I take all of a sudden get my foot off the gas and turn the steering wheel the opposite direction?

Usually your tires will be sliding before you realize "i am going to oversteer soon". So yes, if you realize that your ass is hanging out, countersteer and you'll save it.

I do this in the snow all the time. Find a deserted street with a 90 degree turn onto another one. Make sure the street is wide enough so if you screw up, you don't kill yourself. Go straight until you've built up a little speed (not much or you will really kill yourself), turn into the turn and a second after you start to turn, take your feet off everything, your ass will slide out as a result of trail-throttle oversteer, give it a little countersteer, you'll straighten out, back on throttle. works every time.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

That's good to know, i know it works with XFG for example, but i was trying to say that how many of us would actualy do it when it does happen in some bad situation in traffic, you avoid something, etc, car gets loose, you think that your scared brain would thought about doing it?...
It's different when you try it in a sim or empty parking lot..

the fact is that in a situation such as one you described (sliding in traffic, avoiding something) the worst thing you can do is add power, its faster and safer to get your feet off everything and counter-steer. only brake when you aren't sliding anymore.

Quote from ajp71 :

Driving what exactly? Lifting off the throttle in a slide is like accepting a spin is inevitable and you may as well sit it out, unless of course you're talking about power endued oversteer when it's obviously a very different situation.

We were driving mazda RX-8s around a small oval with sprinklers on each bend. As you round the bend, the instructor says "LIFT!" (meaning lift off the throttle). You life, he pulls handbrake for half a second, you start to slide, you counter-steer correcting the slide, and apply power again. Rinse and repeat. We had a total of about 30-40 "slides." I was unable to correct the slide twice. Really, in that situation, adding power would have done absolutely nothing except make it worse.

Yes, it was trailing-throttle oversteer.

Last edited by ans7812, Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:43.

Quote from ajp71 :

No tapping the throttle is something you should never do except maybe if you want to deliberately loose traction on the driven wheel, and power understeer isn't quite as fun as a good powerslide. By being gentle on the throttle smoothly but quickly adding a bit in one movement.

By tapping i didn't mean blipping the throttle as you would in a downshift. (if thats what you were thinking) What i meant was more "stroking" the throttle if that makes any sense.


double post.