Hi Well,
You seem to really believe in your system (saw you unleash it on Atlas F1 until bira closed you down
) but I think it would be a little too complicated to keep the viewers informed of the ongoing points situation during the race. FOM sometimes struggles with just timing graphics, so god knows how they'd manage to present the points live during the race. And those actually at the trackside would be completely lost.I like the idea that a driver is encouraged to make up places and drivers get something even if they hit reliability problems, but I fear it would be just too complicated for most viewers.
Maybe a point system that gives points for all classified finishing positions, rather than just the first 8, and maybe even points for position at certain stages of the race, can help battle the apparent unfairness of being struck by unreliability. Having said that, it's motorsport, where the machinery and team have always been as much an influence on a drivers championship success as their talent.
I enjoy races as singular events anyway, and I'm not really bothered about the championship as such. Maybe that's because the point system usually only allows for 1 or 2 people to really have a chance, and a points system shake up might help, but I think it has to be simple enough for the average fan to know how the points are looking while watching the race.
Where as some people were hoping Alonso would suffer some bad luck late last season, to drag out the championship and keep Kimi in the fight, I was hoping he'd hurry up and win the bloody thing. Once it was out of the way, you knew they were all racing for themselves without helping teammates, playing it safe for points, or anything else that generally gets in the way of good old racing.
Seems low, but that was the quote from the Steward.
I think he must be refering to the point at which Schumacher counter steered the second time, rather than the initial steering correction and lockup.
Not really on the original topic (but what I originally thought the thread title meant :P ), but is there a modified steering wheel graphic without the BMW logo, for when we choose not to drive with a BMW skin?
Did a quick forum search, and didn't find one.
Did a quick forum search, and didn't find one.
Last edited by Rob76, .
Sounds like you need bottomless pockets and a disregard for your own life, to race with you guys!
And I just thought the insane racing in LFS was down to it being a game, where nobody is hurt and hardware isn't damaged.
And I just thought the insane racing in LFS was down to it being a game, where nobody is hurt and hardware isn't damaged.
One of the Stewards, Joaquin Verdegay of the Spanish motorsport federation, has spoken about the decision to give Schumacher the penalty.
"It was a painful decision because we could not make a mistake and put the reputation of a driver at risk,
"We don't know if the entire manoeuvre was deliberate, but in that spot he had certainly not done anything like it throughout the weekend: he braked over 50% more heavily than on the other laps.
"Then he performed some absolutely unnecessary and pathetic counter-steering, and that lasted five metres, until there was no more chances of going through the turn normally.
"He lost control of the car while travelling at 16km/h! That's something completely unjustifiable. And the engine shut off because he wanted it to, by losing enough time before hitting the clutch. And the excuse that he did not engage reverse because there was traffic doesn't make sense."
Make of it what you will....
"It was a painful decision because we could not make a mistake and put the reputation of a driver at risk,
"We don't know if the entire manoeuvre was deliberate, but in that spot he had certainly not done anything like it throughout the weekend: he braked over 50% more heavily than on the other laps.
"Then he performed some absolutely unnecessary and pathetic counter-steering, and that lasted five metres, until there was no more chances of going through the turn normally.
"He lost control of the car while travelling at 16km/h! That's something completely unjustifiable. And the engine shut off because he wanted it to, by losing enough time before hitting the clutch. And the excuse that he did not engage reverse because there was traffic doesn't make sense."
Make of it what you will....
Me too. Seemed to have an fps hit too.
It was nice to have situational awareness, but as you can't feel the car's movement (beyond the steering wheels FFB) you rely heavily on the visual feedback. I found I either reacted too slowly or over corrected with the Track IR. Nice idea, but I think the ideal solution is a fixed but much larger surrounding view to help situational awareness. Can't fit the Mugar Omni theatre in my apartment though...
If we give Schumacher the benefit of the doubt and assume that he didn't approach Rascasse with the intention of parking the car and we assume there was an initial innocent mistake (very strange entry line, for one, and the initial corrections and lockup), was it beyond an experienced F1 driver to get the car around the corner?
If Schumacher had been leading the race and made those initial mistakes, would he have got through the corner without stopping against the barrier? I'd put money on it that he could.
We know Schumacher's been known to make split second decisions of a dubious nature before, so I'm more inclined to believe that once he'd screwed the lap his instantaneous reaction was that a yellow flag would be good, rather than it being more premeditated. The only thing that points towards it being more 'planned' was the stupid line into Rascasse, which looking at the onboard footage approaching Rascasse, didn't seem to be through running wide, but rather through an early turn in. Prior to turning in there were only small steering inputs, and although he wasn't hugging the barrier on the left, he was still mostly on the 'rubbered' racing line.
The FIA stewards had access to far more data than we do and have stated the entry speed was no higher than normal and that he braked considerably harder than normal. They also interviewed Schumacher and team members (lets hope Schumacher managed to act less guilty than in the PC). I really doubt the FIA would choose the verdict for popularity (it's not something they've done before), and given the time they took to reach their conclusion probably discussed every possible scenario.
For me, of the three basic scenarios:
1) mistake(s)
2) initial mistake and then instantaneous reaction to park and bring out yellows
3) Not a mistake and fully planned earlier in the lap
It's a shame there wasn't evidence to show 1) because it's become another black mark (or as Schumacher calls them, black dots on his white Jacket) on an amazing career record. I really don't want to believe it was 3) and my gut reaction (based on our limited evidence, the FIA’s verdict, and dare I say it, past misdemeanors) is that it was a case of 2).
But it's just my opinion and the one that counted was that of the FIA. In the end Schumacher produced yet another fantastic drive in the race, with not a single mistake at Rascasse
If Schumacher had been leading the race and made those initial mistakes, would he have got through the corner without stopping against the barrier? I'd put money on it that he could.
We know Schumacher's been known to make split second decisions of a dubious nature before, so I'm more inclined to believe that once he'd screwed the lap his instantaneous reaction was that a yellow flag would be good, rather than it being more premeditated. The only thing that points towards it being more 'planned' was the stupid line into Rascasse, which looking at the onboard footage approaching Rascasse, didn't seem to be through running wide, but rather through an early turn in. Prior to turning in there were only small steering inputs, and although he wasn't hugging the barrier on the left, he was still mostly on the 'rubbered' racing line.
The FIA stewards had access to far more data than we do and have stated the entry speed was no higher than normal and that he braked considerably harder than normal. They also interviewed Schumacher and team members (lets hope Schumacher managed to act less guilty than in the PC). I really doubt the FIA would choose the verdict for popularity (it's not something they've done before), and given the time they took to reach their conclusion probably discussed every possible scenario.
For me, of the three basic scenarios:
1) mistake(s)
2) initial mistake and then instantaneous reaction to park and bring out yellows
3) Not a mistake and fully planned earlier in the lap
It's a shame there wasn't evidence to show 1) because it's become another black mark (or as Schumacher calls them, black dots on his white Jacket) on an amazing career record. I really don't want to believe it was 3) and my gut reaction (based on our limited evidence, the FIA’s verdict, and dare I say it, past misdemeanors) is that it was a case of 2).
But it's just my opinion and the one that counted was that of the FIA. In the end Schumacher produced yet another fantastic drive in the race, with not a single mistake at Rascasse
The CBS coverage was a little better than for their previous attempts, mainly because they ditched Derek 'fierce kerb' Daily and put Danny 'B-M-Dubya' Sullivan in the hot seat. It took a litte while getting used to Sullivan butcher European names in a Southern American accent, but it was far preferable to Daily.
I think the fact I could fast forward through the adverts helped too.
I think the fact I could fast forward through the adverts helped too.
It was a bit of a dive bomb move relying on DC to back out of his turn in. Both did well (GF for pulling it off, and DC for realising his one stop strategy needed no heroics) Looking from the front TV angle, DC was very close to having the front wing ripped off - it certainly took a huge knock on Fisi's rear wheel.
It was a good race, with quite a few drivers with a shout at the win. I think Marco proved to be sporting in not moving across on Hornish. Maybe if he'd moved low straight after exiting turn 4 he could have made Hornish's job harder, but the Penske had far more speed.
Bad timing of the last yellow for a few drivers (including Danica), but certainly helped Hornish and almost created an Andretti fairytale ending. AGR have seen their Honda engine advantage wiped out this season, so it made Michael's Indy500 comeback a longshot, but with a little luck he almost pulled it off. I wouldn't be surprised if he tries again next year.
I'm glad I watched this one and taped Monaco.
yep, you're right. I realised after I posted, but as I was wanting to avoid the result of Monaco until I watched my tape, so I stayed off the forum.
The video is fun, although quite old now, as there are quite a few dirty deeds that could be added. But I will agree with the previous poster that not all are Schumacher's fault....
1) Obvious team orders to allow Schumacher past Rubens 'for the championship'. Not sure if this was before team orders were 'banned' but, to be honest, this is one area which I think nearly every team do to some extent, it's just Ferrari don't choose to hide it.
2) Fully agree on this one - shame it wasn't dealt with in the same way as Jerez '97. It's also a shame Damon wasn't close enough to see MS had hit the wall (he only saw MS wide on the grass) as he may have held back. Look at how skinny the suspension parts are - nowadays with modern suspension I think Hill probably could have continued (see MS/DC in 12). Anyway, Hill's moved on in life, so I guess it can be put to rest...
3) Actually Schumacher is in the Ferrari on this one! It's Wurz in the Benetton, and to be honest I thought it was good racing, neither wanting to give up the place.
4) Schumacher drifts wide when DC was on the outside at the hairpin in the French GP. Schumacher wasn't overtaking, but defending, and the yellows weren't local to them. DC famously gives Schumacher the finger but a lap or so later makes it past at the same place. One of DC's stronger race victories.
5) The Spa incident and aftermath - DC has since admitted it was his mistake to let off the throttle on the racing line in poor visibility. MS just expected DC to keep his foot down, and although criticised for being so close to a car he was lapping when he had a huge lead, he wasn't that close until DC slowed and it wasn't really Schumacher's fault. His furious march through the pitlane to find DC was embarrassing, and a little rich, though. I was thankful for DC's poorly chosen place to let MS past, as it allowed for Jordan's first (and Hill's last) victory.
6) I was at the trackside at Spa right in front of this one. On the long straight from eau rouge to les combes Mika had a run at Schumacher and went to the outside. Despite the huge speed differential, Schumacher still chose to take Mika to the edge of the track at close to 200mph where the grass was very wet. It was the one and only time I remember Mika being angry, and had a word with MS afterwards. Anyway, Mika had revenge the very next lap at the same place when he and Schumacher caught Zonta's lapped BAR. MS when left and Mika went right, and into les combes Mika got past.
7) MS exits the pits and drives Frentzen's Williams straight off the track. Not sure if it was dirty or just incompetent, but definitely Schumacher's fault. He did cross the pit exit lines, but I'm not sure that was against the regulations back then.
8) Jerez, the one he was actually punished for. Not much to say that hasn't been, but had MS played cleanly he should have let JV through and tucked in behind. JV was carrying a little too much speed and probably would have run wide allowing MS back past.
9) Is there something we should know about Michael?
10) Spa again, on the run to la Source hairpin. Fisichella has a run on the outside, and right in the braking zone Schumacher cuts across on him. Totally Schumacher's fault - not sure if he was focusing more on a battle ahead or was trying to block Fisichella, but he has a habit of blocking too late when another car has higher speed and is just about to pass. He did it to JPM in Brazil too.
[EDIT - Not Spa but Germany....]
11) Schumacher gets a little shirty with Damon Hill after their clash at Monza '95. This one was more Damon's fault. Schumacher and Damon were racing into the distance nose to tail, and came across Taki Inoue (incompetent backmarker from the '90s, but not quite as bad as Ide). Inoue let MS past on one side and then (maybe not seeing Hill) Inoue moved across. Damon went to the other side and in an attempt to ensure he got past Inoue he released his brake slightly to show Taki his nose and ran in to the back of Schumacher. It was pretty much a mistake by Damon dealing with Inoue rather than an attempt to pass MS, Hill got a 1 race suspended ban. Got to love those stewards....
12) This one wasn't really Schumacher playing dirty - DC ran wide and although mostly ahead tried to retake the racing line with Schumacher partly alongside. A racing incident, where DC came off worse.
There's a similar montage of JPM's most entertaining moments, but I can't find it at the moment. It shows why people hate to love him sometimes - some great racing and overtaking, and some big cock-ups. One thing you can say about JPM, it's never done in a dirty way - he's just a racer. The montage didn't have so much from his McLaren days though, which would be more cock-ups than great racing. It's a shame he hasn't made the most out of his time at McLaren - DC had proved to be a stronger partner to Kimi.
Last edited by Rob76, .
That's quite a good way of putting it. I frequently found myself shouting at the TV when suffering James Allen, Tony Jardine or Jim Rosenthal on ITV. With Speed I find myself laughing along with the commentators - can make the most boring races more fun.
Unfortunately, as this race is shown first by CBS, I'll be back to shouting at the TV
I still think Martin Brundle is a class act, but I think what Steve Matchett gives away in first hand driving knowledge, he more than makes up for with technical knowledge. Despite having retired from F1 he keeps very much on top of the technology and has a lot of contacts in the sport.
David Hobbs is the funny guy, but he's most prone to making mistakes out of the three. Bob Varsha knows his stuff and keeps things in check, but can also be quite amusing. Overall I like the Speed commentators and none of them are as annoying as ITV's James Allen, who's a complete tool. Of the few races I usually still catch in the UK, he's still as annoying as ever and seems to drag Martin down a little.
Where Speed falls down compared to ITV is the below par pre-race section (Peter Windsor is OK as the reporter in the paddock, but his new-for-2006 grid walk isn't a patch on Brundle's), and the need to show adverts for other Speed channel shows during the live race (but that's US TV for you).
Until we get the option of commercial-free PPV F1 coverage again, I'm quite happy with Speed. It was a nice surprise to have coverage that compared favourably to ITV, with the added bonus of not having James Allen.
Last edited by Rob76, .
No Mr.Todt, it rules against delibrately stopping. The Stewards concluded it wasn't a driver error, and is not a penalty against genuine driving errors.
Well, from the ITV website it looks like Schumacher is at the back, rather than 8th:
REVISED MONACO GP GRID
Monaco Grand Prix provisional starting grid
1. ALONSO Renault
2. WEBBER Williams
3. RAIKKONEN McLaren
4. MONTOYA McLaren
5. BARRICHELLO Honda
6. TRULLI Toyota
7. COULTHARD Red Bull
8. ROSBERG Williams
9. FISICHELLA Renault*
10. R.SCHUMACHER Toyota
11. KLIEN Red Bull
12. LIUZZI Toro Rosso
13. BUTTON Honda
14. VILLENEUVE BMW
15. HEIDFELD BMW
16. ALBERS Midland
17. MONTEIRO Midland
18. SPEED Toro Rosso
19. SATO Super Aguri
20. MONTAGNY Super Aguri
21. MASSA Ferrari
22. M.SCHUMACHER Ferrari**
* docked three fastest laps for impeding Coulthard
** sent to back of grid for deliberately causing yellow flags
Normally I would agree that any GP is preferable to an IRL race, but that depends if you have to suffer the CBS tape-delayed coverage of Monaco or not. As it's taped delayed, I may as well watch the Indy500 live and then watch the Monaco GP afterwards.
The Indy500 did initially suffer when CART split, but nowadays you have some great drivers in very even cars.
From the F1 sporting regs:
116b) If, in the opinion of the stewards, a driver deliberately stops on the circuit or impedes another driver in any way during the qualifying practice session his times will be cancelled.
So, deliberately stopping on the track during qualifying is cheating. As we're talking about an F1 qualifying session, I'm not sure what the relevance of stopping when grocery shopping has
Last edited by Rob76, .
That highlights one of the biggest problems with the current Qualifying -the time they are on low fuel and potentially showing how fast they really can go, the aim is to make the cut, not necessarily set the fastest lap. You can imagine those that run the risk of being cut are pushing as fast as possible, but those who, given a clean lap, will easily advance to Q3 are probably less likely to push the limit and risk the car.
In the last session, where being fastest is the aim, it's all clowded by fuel strategy.
Having said that, I think given Kimi's qualifying and JPM's practice times, McLaren are in better shape to give Alonso a race than they've been recently. Throw in Williams on the Bridgestone's, and it could still be interesting despite the loss of Michael from the battle.
From the FIA Stewards report:
"having set a fast time in sector one, the driver lost time in sector two, arrived at Turn 18 at a speed little, if any, different from his previous fastest lap, and braked with such force that his front wheels locked up, requiring the driver to regain control of the car.
"The driver ultimately did so without hitting the barrier on the outside of Turn 18. The engine of the car subsequently stalled, with the result of the car partially blocked the track.
"Having compared all relevant data, the stewards can find no justifiable reason for the driver to have braked with such undue, excessive and unusual pressure at this part of the circuit, and are therefore left with no alternatives but to conclude that the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit in the last few minutes of qualifying, at a time at which he had thus far set the fastest laptime."
"having set a fast time in sector one, the driver lost time in sector two, arrived at Turn 18 at a speed little, if any, different from his previous fastest lap, and braked with such force that his front wheels locked up, requiring the driver to regain control of the car.
"The driver ultimately did so without hitting the barrier on the outside of Turn 18. The engine of the car subsequently stalled, with the result of the car partially blocked the track.
"Having compared all relevant data, the stewards can find no justifiable reason for the driver to have braked with such undue, excessive and unusual pressure at this part of the circuit, and are therefore left with no alternatives but to conclude that the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit in the last few minutes of qualifying, at a time at which he had thus far set the fastest laptime."
Massa's accident was at a much quicker right hand corner and looked like real oversteer which he over corrected, speering him straight on into the wall. Very LFS actually
Michael's was at a slow corner, where he took a weird line. It was almost like he wanted to create understeer, and his straightening of the wheel (the 2nd time) looked like it was to ensure he reached the wall, as the briefly locked wheel and understeer weren't doing the job.
I think the problem is that he did turn left/straight (towards the outer wall) rather than turning right.
I guess Ferrari couldn't produce any telemetry that showed MS had a real problem that required the straightening of the wheel, taking him to the wall.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG