It may have robbed us of a battle between the two main championship contenders, but I don't have the bad taste in my mouth anymore

Will he ever learn? Probably a little too late to teach an old dog new tricks, or in this case, a cheat how to play fair....

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Commentary is much better than ITV's feed. Do any UK channels broadcast Speed Channel's F1 coverage?

I doubt it - I think Bernie controls F1 broadcast too closely.

Unfortunately this race will not be shown live by Speed (a cable channel), due to 4 races per year being chosen by CBS to show on Broadcast/Network TV (essentially terrestrial). So far CBS have screwed up coverage of Imola and Spain, and still have the Monaco and British GPs to go.

CBS are terrible (commentary by the hapless Derek Daily and Ralf Sheehan) and they show it tape delayed rather than live. To add insult to injury, they cram the whole pre-race buildup and race into a 2 hour slot, so even though it's tape delayed due to the short time slot and frequent adverts, you miss more of the race than with live commercial broadcasts, like ITV and Speed. You'd also think that, as it's not live, CBS would pick suitably unimportant parts of the race to show adverts, but you'd be wrong. It's almost like they call it while the race is live, and stick with it no matter what they miss.

CBS (in a final twist to their incompetence) have chosen to show a tape delayed Monaco GP at exactly the same time as the live Indy500 coverage (on ABC). If the aim is to make F1 more accessible to a wider audience, it doesn't make sense to compete with the biggest open wheel race in North America. I'll probably either record the Monaco race or wait until Speed show it next Friday. At least when Speed shows a tape delayed race, they don't miss a second (effectively pausing the race to go for adverts).

Last edited by Rob76, Sat 27 May 2006, 19:56.

Quote from traxxion :

Of course it was on purpose and of course he will never admit. This exactly is the reason why I admire the guy, it's straight genious if you ask me.
You could see clearly he blew his fast laptime in the chicane after the tunnel by bouncing over the kerbs too hard. On the little straight after that he was repositioning himself in the cockpit in a "ok-that-was-it, my-last-chance" style. That was visible in the second split time as well, as he had lost over 2/10's of a second.
He might even have heard over the radio that Alonso was on a quick pace behind him and did the only thing that could save his pole position; acting like he made a mistake.
I said straight away, people are gonna hate him for this, but you are gonna hate me for this: he's a genious in many ways.

One person's 'genious' is another person's 'cheating bastard'

Alonso has been quite quiet, but his last comment in the press conference showed he wasn't convinced it was a mistake and was a subtle dig at Schumacher "so hopefully we can do a good race with no more accidents."

Quote from Yaamboo :

Another place where my vid is hotlinked
No problem with that though, there's a lot of free bandwith at Sonera.

Watching that video, I become more and more convinced Schumacher parked on purpose. The line is all wrong (you can see the rubber on the track further to the left) and the second 'correction' where he straightens the wheel is for no other reason than to take the car to the wall.

Quote from Blackout :

I mean those comments on the site under the vid, where the comments by the people are. But the commentators are great, and yes, in english

Yeah, that was from Speed channel in USA. Two of the commetators are Engilsh: Steve Matchett, ex-Benetton mechanic from when Schumacher was there and David Hobbs, an ex-racing driver from the 1960's. Both are excellent, with Steve having an eye for the technical aspects and David Hobbs offering up funny and often politically incorrect comments. The lone American commentator is Bob Varsia, and he's also very good, especially at keeping the commentary going when Steve and David are pissing themselves laughing (usually after David's hilarious comments). All of them pretty much thought Schumacher's 'mistake' was done delibrately, or at best was highly suspicious.

EDIT: Steve Matchett "How much of an accident was this?" lol. " David Hobbs "He drove off the line...arrrg...that don't look right"
Steve Matchett, unconvinced Schumacher couldn't have made it around was saying (when the video cut short) that he'd seen these drivers "do amazing things with an F1 car". This was clearly amazing for the wrong reasons.....

Last edited by Rob76, Sat 27 May 2006, 19:14.

Quote from tristancliffe :

ALL the drivers jump on the throttle and brake alternately. JPM, one of the worst drivers on the grid in my opinion, should have known the Schumi was going to brake. 1. He was doing it all through the lap and 2. The pace car wasn't far in front, so at some point he HAD to brake. For me it cemented JPM as a great big pillock, and the biggest waste of space (though Ide took that crown for a couple of races) in F1 for many years.

And I'd like to add I'm not a schumi fan as such, so I'm not blindly defending him, I just think that so many people make judgements without thinking.

The Monaco tunnel incident was a bit odd in that it wasn't just a straight forward case of Schumacher braking and being hit from behind. He locked up and went wide to the left and then cut right back to inside where JPM had gone to take avoiding action. Although, as he was a lap down, JPM got involved in a silly incident with the race leader, I also couldn't help thinking Schumacher had been a bit stupid too. But that incident didn't have any wiff of dodgy intentions - just a silly mistake by MS, and JPM being JPM, probably keeping close, looking to jump schumacher to unlap himself.

Last edited by Rob76, Sat 27 May 2006, 19:15.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I don't think it was. If it was on purpose he did it very badly, risking damage and a flat spot. But as everyone loves to hate a winner I can understand why people thought it was on purpose.

It's a slow corner (by F1 standards) so I think the risk of a flat spot was minimal, and the risk of damage was going to be limited to the wing or suspension. As parc ferme rules allow those to be replaced (if damaged), the plan would still work even if he'd tweaked the car against the barrier.

Quote from Ryanry64 :

Looks like it could have been avoided, but if anyone else did this no one would care.

But no other drivers pulls this kind of shit, for us to care.

Quote :

All I know is as an F1 fan I'd much rather see him up there battling with Alonso than being docked 10 places and seeing Alonso run away with it

Me too, if the battle was fair. As it stands, it looks like MS starts from the benefit of pole by unfair means.

Quote from al heeley :

i downloaded NKpro tonight and really liked what i saw, so I paid/registered- it reminds me of gpl, it feels tricky and light, it (and I know this will cause a lot of grief, sorry) makes LFS feel arcade-like to me. I still reckon the finest race sim ever has to be GPL, I've always been in that camp, and NK has some of that feel, it's hard and the graphics are nice, and the ff feels good. I would recommend people persevere with the demo version, its good work for any serious race simmer although it doesn't have the door-to-door race fun of uf1's around south city, it's a very different sim, and it's good.

nKP has some very strong points, and after extended play, coming back to LFS can take some getting used to, especially on the graphics front. Although LFS is far from 'Arcade-like' I know what you mean, when switching back from playing nKp.

Although not an exhaustive list or in any particular order, if nKp sort out the following, It'll probably grab some more of my time:
i) Too easy to flat spot tyres with excessive FFB
ii) FPS optimisation, especially in online play
iii) Sound - although a 2nd sound engine was added, it was (I hope) a stop gap
iv) Multiple (well documented) online issues.

I've also recently been giving rF another dusting off. I come back to it every few months to try out new mods, see whats going on online (not much, as it turned out) and to try to get into it. Unfortunately, after a week of seeing if things clicked, yet again this one really fails to grab me in the same way LFS (and to some extent nKp) does. The grahics engine is pretty good, and some of the mods now look very good, but it's on the gameplay front I'm left feeling detached. The Megane mod was the last one I tried, and it reminded me greatly of GTR, especially in the sudden and unrecoverable oversteer! A positive point about the Megane mod is that it was less like driving a hovercraft than most tintops in rF. Many people say rF and especially the default FFB needs lots of tweaking, but to be honest, if the devs couldn't be bothered to optimise the settings, I'm not sure I can be, especially when I have LFS and nKp (even in it's current buggy state) where, after the minimum of setting up, feel right from the word go.

I think whether a sim feels right is down to the individual, and can be influenced by what sims they've played the most, and for me that may be true, so for me LFS and nKp both feel right in the same way Papyrus sims (GPL and Nascar) felt right. I just haven't had that feeling with rF, but in a few months I'll probably take it for a test drive again...

It's a stupid rule mainly for the reason mentioned earlier: Any engine manufacturer that has an advantage at the start of 2008 keeps it for 3 years. I find it hard to imagine the likes of Honda and Toyota continuing to invest the kind of money they are doing if they find themselves 50hp+ down in 2008 with no way of fighting back until 2011. If Moseley's aim is to force some big names out of F1, he's going to suceed.

It would be far better to introduce rules where the engine manufacturers have to be willing to supply up to 2 teams with engines at the latest spec, at a fixed affordable price. It protects the independent/smaller teams from going without an engine or having to sink too much of their budgets into engines.

Also, if the FIA want to limit the speed of development of engines and the increase in power, then start to restrict revs and air intake (like they have with this years V10 entry). Looking at limiting fuel consumption was also quite interesting, and may have real life benefits.

To restrict engines for 3 years is fine for spec series where every team has the same engine anyway, but for F1 which should be the pinnacle of motorsport, it's crazy.

Typical of Mad Max though....and he's probably feeling quite smug at the moment. He basically forces the teams/manufacturers to sign up for F1 from 2008 and onwards, by setting an early entry deadline after which he opens up the entry to everyone who can fill in the relevant form. Of course they all have to sign up (or run the huge risk of being locked out of F1) which means they've all effectively agreed to the tech regulations as laid out by Max, including the engine freeze.

Quote from MAGGOT :

Yet another pointless lawsuit.... If someone wants a hack, they'll type it in themselves anyways.

Man I hate people.

I can see why they are pissed off - someone goes to search for their software and google prompts them if they want to look for an illegal crack. Yes, if that's someone's intention it won't make any difference, but it's still only going to cause more people to hit sites with cracks than if it didn't suggest 'crack' or 'key gen'.

I don't buy Google's claim that they can't modify the 'Google suggest' algorithm, as it rather obviously has been modified to never suggest 'nude', (or other similar searches) after you type the name of any good looking movie actress, which I imagine is one of the most frequently searched terms .......not that I'd know, of course

Quote from wE1l :

Monaco 96
Monaco 97

Monaco '96 was going well until the guy with a 30+ sec lead had his engine blow Doesn't stand out as a great 'race' though....in fact the only three things I remember are Schumacher hitting the armco, Hill blowing up and Panis' lucky win....

Quote from BWX232 :

Then again, here are some custom shots form ][ Hudson high res textures from rF.. but people from LFS are always saying rF GFX suck and look like crap/ cartoony so I think some people are just hard to please and won't ever be happy. (looking at the tarmac textures here)

I agree, and can't understand how some people can take such a drastic critical stance against rF graphics and hold up LFS as great (I saw it in the rF info thread too). The only part of rF's graphics I find 'cartoony' are the original cars and cockpit graphics. The tracks weren't bad and have a lot of highly detailed parts but some of the stock textures around the track (such as adverts) were quite low res.

One thing with rF (and I find the same with GTR and GTL) is that cars sometimes don't 'move around' quite right. It's not really the graphics or the 3D models and is hard to explain, but I'm never as convinced the cars are 'there' as much as in LFS, despite the graphics often being 'better' in many ways. It's hard to define and isn't really shown in still shots but could be somehow related to some people's comments to the cars looking a little 'stuck on'. Still, it's more a feeling than something I can fully put my finger on...

You've got (paid?) hi res textures which look very nice indeed. I prefer performance over graphical loveliness so I turn rF down to 1280x800 (preserves 16:10 ratio), so I'm not sure they'd buy me much, but your screenshots are not particulaly high res and look pretty damn good. One effect that is quite nice (but usually only slightly overdone in rF and GTL) is the light shining off the track.

Whenever I spend any extended periods in rF or nKp, and then switch back to LFS, the graphics take a little getting used to, as they definitely do suffer from not using any modern effects. LFS could probably gain the most from drastically improved driver arms, and some of the cars dashboards could do with being a little higher res (they are the biggest things in my view). I like having the arms/hands modelled (even if low res) and sort of miss them in rF and nKp.

As it stands, I can run LFS at 1920x1200 with every setting set to max, with only minor drop off in fps at 'busy' moments. Even busy start grids don't drop the fps enough to have an effect on playability. rF is a little more demanding, and at 1920x1200 (even with some settings dropped to medium), I get enough impact on fps to occasionaly affect gameplay, hence I run at 1280x800 (and set video settings back to high). In both games I only really notice low res texture issues in replays. Scenery pop-up (or dramatic LOD changes) piss me off way more than texture resolution. Theres a few times in LFS and rF I wish I could force the game to keep details/scenery textures for a greater distance. Having said that, pop-up isn't bad in either (except the Lienz mod, which had terrible pop-up problems).


OT: Which rF mods are in the pics? The most recent mod I've tried was the Megane, which has been the best rF mod I've tried, but the porsche and GP2 mods look like they might be worth a try.

Quote from danowat :

LFS's netcode is the best netcode I have ever used PERIOD, that alone makes it a sim that everyone should own.

Dan,

Totally agree that the netcode is where LFS stands above the other sims. rF isn't far off and is certainly way ahead of other ISI sims. People also say good things for N2003, although I have no personal experience with that online.

I guess some people may have better experience with rF than LFS, but as LFS is lighter on the PC resources and works well even with dial-up, it would be rare.

I've never had huge problems with rF's netcode (although I've never been on a server as full as some LFS servers) but it didn't handle the F1 style car too well with problems such as floating cars, sudden braking (where the prediction failed), etc. all of which is not seen to any extent in LFS with the FO8 or BF1.

Quote from Alan_Bernardo :

Actually, the numbers online are pretty similar between LFS and rFactor. If you run version 1.070 and have the proper mod installed, you're in good shape. The PCC mod is very good.

I agree with much of what you said, and that most things about the top sims are down to taste, especially the physics and graphics. (Incidentally, for me, I'm not a fan of the stock rF graphics (caricature cars) and also I find the other sims based on the ISI engines have a 'washed out feel', but they are just my feelings. The fact that the ISI games require a more powerful PC than LFS doesn't bother me as my PC is capable).

So, assuming the choice between rF and LFS is made on a subjective level, the one area that rF suffers greatly from LFS, no matter which I prefer, is the number of online racers in public servers that I can join at any time without spending at least some time getting my sim updated.

As mentioned earlier, when I fire up rF after any length of time, I'll probably have to close it down again and hunt for a new mod or mod update if I wish to find a decent race. My experience with rF is that more often than not I'll find a server with a few drivers, enter and then find they're just practicing, messing around or just sat in the pits. I saw far more racers and had far more enjoyable races in the days of the rF multiplayer demo, and in the very early days of the F3 mod. As more mods have been released, rF has been updated, and mods have been updated, the number of potential combinations has increased way more than the number of racers on rF has increased, resulting in a very fragmented online experience. The clunkiness of the server lobby, mod and car swapping and the time it takes to actually get into a server all compare very poorly to LFS.

LFS will always offer a selection of reasonably populated servers (even here in a US time zone, which isn't ideal with the Euro-dominated LFS) and I have always managed to find a race, even if it's not with a track or car combo I wanted, without having to exit the game and download a thing (presuming I stay on top of the rare LFS patches). At most it requires me to take a quick look into 2 or 3 servers before I find one with some decent racing going on. As you start to see 'familiar faces' in LFS, you get a good idea who'll give you some good clean racing.

I get the feeling that to enjoy rF online I'd need to join a league, despite it being a more US-based sim. I don't really want to commit to a league and much prefer if I can delve in at any time, like I do with the much more heavily populated FPS games I play.

Last edited by Rob76, Tue 16 May 2006, 03:24.

Quote from xapexcivicx :

40 GBP is $94.81 US

I think you need to find another bank!

40 GBP is about 75 USD at the moment (obviously depends if you're buying or selling).

I think the demo content is a fine line that the devs have got about right. If the content were to be further limited, I think there would still need to be a solid multiplayer element.

The netcode in LFS is one of its strongest elements where it is clearly ahead of all of its sim racing rivals. People argue (ad nauseum) about physics, but in the end, as most of us are not racing drivers (and those that do race probably only race a very limited range of cars), the physics debate is often down to what we think feels right. The netcode is a little more clear-cut in which sim has done the best job.

Online play clearly works well in LFS, even for those still suffering 56k dial-up. If this was removed or severely limited from LFS (like nKP) many demo racers would be unaware of how strong LFS is in this area. Compare how quickly you can get down to racing in LFS, switch cars, tracks and servers and compare that to rFactor, which also has a multiplayer demo.

nKP has abysmal netcode (many fans report great online racing, but I'm yet to find it) and an even clunkier race entry process than rF. nKp's decision not to have multiplayer in the demo is probably wise considering how bad it is, but (partly due to the content activation not being robust) they made the decision to allow demo users full access to the rest of the content.

For independently developed and distributed games, it is probably wise to have a strong demo that demonstrates the strongest features. If the demo was more severely limited they may run the risk of not attracting so many people to buy licenses. If so many dedicated racers are happy with the demo (and they must be aware of the extra content if they buy S2) then it is likely they wouldn't buy anyway or are not currently in a position to buy. If they were 'forced' to buy S2 to continue racing online you will gain a few more license sales, but you might run the risk of more potential customers not being won over by a demo that doesn't do LFS justice.

As it stands, it is a generous demo. Any cut backs in content would have to be well considered. Maybe a time based limitation would be the best, if it could be securely implemented. Maybe nag screens showing S2 content or, even better, the ability to play S2 content replays. What better way to try to convince a demo user of what they are missing than to allow them to play the replays of some great S2 races within their unlocked LFS? (it may already be possible though - I've not tried it)

The important bits:

Live for Speed
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ (shame LFS doesn't take advantage of dual core)
2Gb Corsair XMS4000
2x EVGA 7800GTX Sli running at 1920x1200
ASUS A8N-SLI Premium
Logitech DFP
Acer AL2416Wd (claims to be 6ms but has very slight ghosting where my 8ms Samsung 915N doesn't)
TrackIR (Don't use often as it makes me slower)

EDIT: Caution - the pictures are large filesize

I've always bought a fully built PC and then upgraded it as the price of the highest end components that fit come down in price. Once I can't go any further with upgrades without a motherboard change (which usually means new CPU, RAM and possibly video card anyway) I buy another ready built PC and donate my latest reject to my Dad.

I never buy a 'brand' PC, but rather use a company that build with components I specify. I've never managed to source all the components cheaper to build it myself - the closest I got, the OS would have tipped the balance. So to have it built and get it all warrantied for a year has always (so far) made sense. As I work with electronic equipment and PCs during the week, it's nice just to get stuck in with a fully built PC rather than have the ball ache of building one. Or maybe I'm just lazy

Quote from BWX232 :

This is the beer that falls from the sky at MY house though..

http://www.yuengling.com/

A little off the thread topic, but hey, it's beer!

I used to be an uneducated snob towards US beers until I actually started travelling to the US.

Yuengling is great (It was my favourite beer when I lived in NJ), but I never see it here in MA

Up here Sam Adams is everywhere, but there's many more (little known) micro breweries in the North East US that I prefer. My current favourite is Wachusett http://www.wachusettbrew.com

Cheers!

Quote from JJ72 :

one race that should go down the history book.

totally stunned me for 20 laps.

From what I actually got to see (thanks to CBS - tape delayed and we still miss a quarter of the race to adverts:arge the race wasn't anything special. Certainly the only history books it's going in are those focusing on boring statistics.

The Alonso/Schumacher battle would have seemed more entertaining if there had been even the slightest chance Alonso getting past without Schumacher screwing up. If there's one driver who's unlikely to make a mistake in that situation, it's Schumacher.

Was there any ontrack overtaking, except the first few corners of the first lap?

Deserved podium results for Schuey, Alonso and Montoya. Kimi seemed a little distant this weekend, leaving JPM to lead the McLaren side of things. Massa's general lack of pace (team orders?) and Button's two pit mishaps pretty much took care of the other two capable of challenging for the podium. Fissichella and Barrichello continue to lack the pace of their teammates, although Rubens was also delayed in the pits (from what I gather - CBS missed it).

For me the thing I will remember the most from Imola 2006 is how abysmal the coverage was. CBS truly sucked, with two terrible commentators. Derek Daly is the (very) poor man's Martin Brundle/Steve Matchett without the technical insight or keen eye, but Ralf Sheheen is just about everything I hate about US sports coverage. He's so bad he makes James Allen's overexcited drivel seem great. Sheheen seems to have written down a few key sentences aimed at making himself appear knowledgable on F1, but unfortunately tends to use them at the wrong time. He also had a habit of repeating what Daily had just said 10 seconds before, which wasn't exactly worth hearing the first time. At times he reminded me of Dodgeball, and 'The Ocho' commentators, without the laughs.

Welcome - it's a great community and a great sim that only really shows all it's strengths online against real opponents anyway.:drink:

The response here to anyone mentioning the dreaded 'c' work is understadable considering how supportive of LFS most people are, even if some of the comments regarding not using illegal software when it's a small developer rather than Micro$oft is a little hypocritical.

How many people are producing nice 3D renders in software well past it's trial period?

Quote from deggis :

And the cars have so advanced wings that they actually fly 10 cm in the air.

So rFactor has more advanced physics than we realised

Quote from danowat :

I dont need much of an excuse to show my wheel

http://i9.photobucket.com/albu ... danowat/frex/Dsc01888.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albu ... danowat/frex/Dsc01887.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albu ... danowat/frex/Dsc01886.jpg

That wheel is nice. I've been tempted a few times to order one of the kits, but I'm afraid I couldn't stop myself at just the basic wheel conversion, and before I know it I'm close to $1000 poorer.....