Well, reading through this thread certainly made my decision! Had I got here sooner, it would simply have been a vote for 'what community?' as I'd never (beyond seeing the Oval Junkies in the server list) heard of them.

I even had a blast on their oval last night, and although there wasn't any admins around to enforce the silly passing rules, the constant messages and scripts were more than a little annoying. My advice would be remove quite a few of the automatic messages as they can be very distracting, especially the ones that appear right in the middle of the screen, and to lengthen the time between the rule reminder (Shift-S) message. Many LFS racers may have short atttention spans, but does it have to appear quite so frequently?

Following a link to the FM 'community' forum pretty much sealed the deal. I know the vote means diddly, but the stats might help FM realise they have some room for improvement....

I don't think this allowance/grant should be wasted on silly things like games. LFS, on the other hand, is a serious simulator and should be paid for by whatever means possible, even if it means sponging off the state

Although you seem to be waiting on for the DFP (which is a very solid wheel) I will add that if it's the original Wingman Formula Force then it's a great wheel (not the crappy Wingman Formula Force GP model which was also red).

It has cable driven force feedback (unlike the gear driven momo and DFP) which gives much more subtle (and quiet) control. I have heard stories of the cable breaking, but mine went about 5 years constant use (started with GPL) without a problem. I still have it and it works fine - it was retired year or two ago when I got a DFP.

The steering lock is tiny - claimed to be about 200 degrees, but it is more like 180.

The pedals aree a mixed blessing. They are ultra reliable (non of the problems seen with the Momo and DFP) but they don't have a huge travel, so don't give as much precision as (working) DFP pedals.

It came in two versions, one with just a serial connection (no good for Windows XP if I remember) and one with a serial/USB adapter. Also, I believe the latest wingman drivers dropped support for the WFF, so if you're running WinXP 64bit it probably won't work.

Overall a nice wheel. If you could knock the seller down from 25 quid, it might carry you over until you can assess logi's G25 in October.

Quote from Tailspin :

All the major sancioning bodies. The SCCA rule book, for example says, "The responsibility for the decision to pass another car rests with the overtaking driver."

In Formula Dodge races, for example, if the overtaking driver is not at least alongside at the turn-in point (at the latest) and there is contact as a result of the pass attempt, the overtaking driver is at fault.

Again, like the blocking moves that are allowed, that's specifically about cars racing for position, without blue flags. The ruling on blue flag situations often puts the responsibility onto the car being shown the blue flag to allow the following car to pass.

[Edit] There does seem to be some variation between sactioning bodies and their take on how far a blue flag goes. The SCCA, for example, basically state the blue is used to warn the driver a car is trying to overtake (although not stipulated, it is probably mostly in cases of cars being lapped). It does not seem to indicate the following car should be allowed to pass. The FIA, on the other hand, do state the car being shown the flag should allow the following car to pass, 'at the earliest opportunity'. These sort of differences probably don't help a global racing community come to agreement on what it means in LFS. Throw in those who don't give a shit or just don't handle the situation well, and you'll occasionaly have the odd incident.

Last edited by Rob76, Sat, 22 Jul 2006 13:31.

Quote from sil3ntwar :

You can use GTL tracks in this demo. I've been racing around the 'ring, bathurst and the old hockenheim.

Is this legit, if I own GTL? Probably not if I bothered to read the ToCs I agreed to on install. But if it is, do the tracks from GTR (which I can't use due to Simbin not updating the starforce drivers to x64 compatible) also work?

So far I've had some fun thrashing around in GTR2 demo. The AI may not be too clever, but at least they don't spam! If it's netcode isn't light and day ahead of it's predecessors it won't pose much threat to LFS for my online racing time, but it's still fun to race some real tracks/cars that are made to a professional standard (something the advocats of rF mods seem to forget - most of the mods are a shit quality).

Much as I curse simbin for dumping support of GTR, I may well be fool enough to get GTR2 for some fun offline racing. Why change the habit of a lifetime? It just pains me that I've already given Simbin more than twice what Scavier have asked for, and I'm about to dump almost another $50 in their lap. LFS is way too cheap!

Quote from jspec :

Definetaly get Masterskinners' pro-kits they help you a lot.

open your favorite music, get in the mood lol

and a more useful tip: when you are working, resize the skin 1280x1024 (or if you working on 2048s, resize it 2560x2048), make your skin, then resize it back to 1024x1024 then save as a JPEG file. You may realised that cars on LFS are not "square" they are more stretched. and when you work on a "square" skin, the result will come out stretched in the game. So before all of this crappy stuff you can stretch the blank skin and resize your final stuff back to square to get the most realistic result.

Not a bad tip for those who want to get the ratio right. The only problem with that for me is that I'm constantly checking my skin progress in LFS viewer, and it would be a complete ball ache to constantly be resizing to save, check in viewer, resize back, etc. What I tend to do instead, if I'm applying decals, is to resize (i.e. squash) the items before pasting them.

Quote from XCNuse :

i wonder what tristan would be driving if he was american

My guess is a Mazda Miata

I'm by no means a fan of regulations written by the FIA, but appendix H of the 'International Sporting Code' (which covers F1) has this to say on blue flags:

"d) Light Blue flag:
This should normally be waved, as an indication to a driver that
he is about to be overtaken. It has different meanings during
practice and the race.
At all times :
- A stationary flag should be displayed to a driver leaving the pits if traffic is approaching on the track.
During practice :
- Give way to a faster car which is about to overtake you.
During the race :
- The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity."

For me, it just takes a little common sense. If the car being shown the blue flag isn't quicker, they should minimise the delay to both themselves and the car catching them by selecting a sensible place to allow the car past, with no sudden line changes or speed changes. If they are truely quicker, they'll soon 'shake' the blue flag. If they get shown the blue flag for a full lap in LFS, there's a good chance they're holding someone up. Even if they think they're 'as fast', they will usually be slowing the lapping car. Quick 'backmarkers' should be allowed to wait for the lapping car to get close before being expected to allow them to pass. I disagree with backmarkers racing the leaders or blocking the leaders, although the views on this seem to vary quite a bit between different racing diciplines (oval racing seems to be less strict with backmarkers as F1, for example)

Are the track screenshots on their website of LimeRock Park?

http://www.driversrepublic.net/screenshots.html

My updated personal helmet

Last edited by Rob76, Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:59.

RAC as safety car? So what's deployed when the safety car spins? lol

It's probably me, but if I type:

/key 3 ctrl_f1

I get the message 'unknown key function'. If I type:

/button 3 ctrl_f1

it does correctly assign ctrl+f1 to controller button 3. If I assign shift_up command to key 3 it works fine. Are the ctrl_F# not allowed to be assigned to keys?

Last edited by Rob76, Sat, 8 Jul 2006 23:08.

Quote from Becky Rose :

He turned up at my local outdoor kart track one day and smashed the lap record for rental karts, and I have to say that time was fast. It took the local club drivers 6 months or so to break it whilst on a dedicated lap record hunt. You might think he's crap, but he is the one that beat Michael Schumacher whilst driving a totally inferior Williams...

I can't say I have anything but respect for the man.

I'm actually a huge fan of Hill and think he was better than many gave him credit for, but I'm surprised to hear that he smashed a kart record, as he didn't start his motorsport career in karts. I guess if your'e naturally fast, you're naturally fast.

He's never really been interested in seriously competing in motorsport since F1, only really doing demonstration runs, tests, etc. If he agreed to come back to set a serious Top Gear lap, he'd probably be much quicker, setting a time similar to Mansell (who'd try and win at anything he does!).

Also, during the years he was up against Schumacher, I wouldn't have classed the Williams as 'totally inferior'. The '94 Williams had it's difficulties with a return to passive suspension, and some (including Senna) believe the Benetton wasn't strictly legal, but by the end of '94 they were very even. By '95 Benetton had the Renault, but it was still quite even. If anything, Williams was slightly faster over a lap but was often less reliable.

PS, found this looking for Top gear tracks....

Last edited by Rob76, Sat, 8 Jul 2006 20:01.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Which is a shame and a demonstration of the FIA missing the point again! I feel that out of the existing 20 minute session over 10 minutes are dull - they need to get rid of the fuel tokens and let them run light - then it would work. Taking 5 minutes off isn't going to do everything needed because it'll still have a fuel burn session... It's this that is wrong, I believe.

I quite like this years qualifying system as I find it quite exciting. As a fan of Button, it's currently quite dicey that he even makes it through the first session, lol.

I only think the last session needed rework. Cutting it down by 5 minutes is the right way to go IF they also were running on low fuel. I've never been a fan of qualifying on race fuel.

The difficulty (if you really must have them qualifying on race fuel loads) is that if they don't get a fuel allowance back for each qualifying lap completed, they'd all just sit in the garage and then do one (or possibly 2) fast laps at the end of the session. If (like now) they do get the fuel allowance, they just do fuel burn laps to get the weight down for the last 1 or 2 flyers. Either way, the first 2/3rds of the last session are pointless.

For me session 3 should follow the format of the first 2, and dump the race fuel thing. But I'm a big believer in getting rid of refueling in races anyway....

Quote from ajp71 :

^^ You've overlooked N2003 which still seems to have a ridiculously large number of people who like to turn left a lot in a countless number of leagues.

I initially started to discuss those brought up and being discussed in this thread as the sim racing big boys (GTR and rF). I brought in a few recent sims I also have knowledge of as they may be current or future contenders.

I own NR2003, but have never really used it much. Back in the days of Nascar2, when I lived in a geeky student house with a LAN, we used to have fun with N2. After that, GPL took over, and was the sim I always came back to once the shine of the latest release had worn off. That was before LFS took over.

NR2003 never really grabbed me (partly because I'm not a huge Nascar fan and partly because I didn't feel it had moved on much since the early versions). From what I understand it was big as a standalone sim and a popular mod platform, but it is surely now in decline, especially as it's quite difficult to get a copy now. Anyone want to buy my copy?

Quote from Bruce Saltzman :

I do appreciate the reserve in judgement. That's fair. But they do what they do and we have our own ideas about content. Being new, VM will of course be an evolving process for improvement each month.

As I was the one resonsibile for design and layout in the other magazine, I can certainly see where one would find similarities, although I would like to think it has some different flavor to it. The main goal is to keep it easily visible and readable on screen and to that end I did make some minor changes, albeit subtle. However I would like to think that the design itself is distinctive enough from everything else.

As always, we are always open and appreciative of any and all constructive feedback. Thanks.

Hi Bruce,

Although I haven't read the entire issue yet, I thought I'd give you my initial feedback. The similarity to the layout and style of ASS is as obvious as the reasons, but that's no bad thing.

Although it doesn't mean much to LFS racers yet, the large presence of FILSCA isn't necessarily a bad thing. As someone else mentioned, giving pages of results might be better suited to a website, where the stats and results can be more dynamically presented, but if they are to remain maybe they need to be kept at the back and take up less pages. Having said that, articles on future FILSCA events, explaining what it is, how a sim community can benefit, etc. would be great, especially as LFS (and maybe other sims) and FILSCA have never really embraced each other. It might be nice to break up the articles with info and side stories (e.g If you have an article on a new FILSCA championship, or on the driver of the month, have a text box with some interesting info, an explanation on what FILSCA is, or how a racer might get involved, who the key people in the article are, etc.).

One of my biggest complaints with ASS (along with the lack of LFS coverage or the dubiously great reviews) is that the articles were written and laid out like long essays with only sub headings and screenshots to break it up. For a reader who didn't know the subject or people intimately, they could often be difficult to read.

Another small suggestion I have to the layout of the articles would be a small summary box at the start of articles (again, similar to mainstream gaming magazines) which give some useful info such as: game or mod review/preview, if it's a mod which sim is it for, relevant website, release dates, cost, etc. As stated above, too many times in ASS it wasn't clear what an article was about (even the article titles often seemed to need the reader to be 'in the know') and due to the lack of concise editing or clearly presented info, it often didn't become clear even by the end of the first page!

Another ASS quirk to try to avoid is the cryptic references to RSC (or other forum) fights and sim racing politics without at least giving some basic info to the reader who isn't aware of the topic, didn't read the particular threads in question, or know the community members being discussed. Maybe that is one particular writer at ASS, but it often felt a little unprofessional. The topics may be totally valid for reporting, but need to be balanced and be understandable to the more casual reader.


Anyway, overall I want to thank you and the VM team for putting in the effort to cater for the sim racing community.

Quote from ajp71 :

3 things:

1. LFS has been around since 2001 and the forums at RSC are still posted in.

2. GTR/GTL are sold as mainstream games and a lot of the people who buy them never get into the community, at least they don't find RSC, there are plenty of sites/forums which cover arcade games which have GTR sections.

3. From my understanding rFactor is similar to GTR in the sense that it doesn't have one community.

http://www.rfactor.net/index.php?page=community

I'm not sure how many play each of the sims in question, but LFS users seem to be the most loyal and organised community. It may well have something to do with it not being open to mods. The LFS forum at RSC is (by the standards set before the official forum opened) pretty much dead. The posts total are not increasing particulalry quickly anyway - a post I made over a month ago is still only 2/3rds down the first page!

Forums are not an accurate indication of the number of racers of a particular sim, but do indicate to some degree how active the racers are. I own practically every racing sim ever produced, but I'd put my hand up and be counted as an LFS racer way before GTR, rF, GTL, or nKp. Many of the others get fired up now and again (GTR got sidelined as the devs decided not to patch to the latest x64 compatible starforce drivers. I'll have to be seriously impressed by GTR2 to be willing to give them my money again - I'm no programmer, but really, how long would it have taken simbin/blimey to fix that, especially considering GTL works on x64?). The commercial games can be counted as 'sales', but how many are like mine, sitting on my shelf collecting dust. Forum activity at least indicates the customers are still actively interested in the games and that they are a big part of their sim racing life.

If we were to measure which was the most populated online racing sim, it must be LFS. This is based on the number of racers online and populated servers whenever I connect to any of the sims (US east coast). Again the lack of mods in LFS helps keep the racers from fragmenting, but even so, the total number of online racers in LFS is always much, much higher.

Offline players are harder to judge, and I imagine the number of offline GTR and GTL players actually outweight those using it online. They are far more complete games offline than LFS and rF, in addition to the fact the netcode is no where near as good as LFS, or even rF. The number of online racers in nKpro is probably not a great way to measure it's popularity either, not because it's great offline, but just that it's absolutely awful online.

Last edited by Rob76, Fri, 7 Jul 2006 01:02.

Hi Bruce,
I'll be interested in checking your new magazine (hopefully tomorrow) and hope it satisfies the LFS side of the sim racing community more than Autosimsport does.

The July edition of ASS has some rather bizarre tirade on page 5. Is that anything to do with you leaving? It certainly didn't really shed any light on the matter, but I hope it made the author feel better It was certainly written in the great tradition of ASS, where things ramble on and the average reader (me) feels like they've missed something.

Anyway, good luck.

Quote from yegadoyai :

As an avid cross genre gamer my reaction times are very fast, generally faster than is possible without an amount or error in timing/or good guesswork. This does not mean men have faster reactions. Several tests have showed that professional athletes/racers/gamers etc do not have faster reactions UNLESS they are competing in their chosen sport or have just finished doing so.
I remember a trial for Nigel Mansell to test this theory. They had a large wall covered with lights. The wall was maybe 7' square and the lights were spaced evenly over the surface. The object of the game is to hit the lights as they come on. Due to the size of the board there are lights on your periphery vision. Nigel Mansell tried it and scored a very average reaction time of about .25s However, after a quick blast round the track he tried it again (did something like 2-3 qually laps of Silverstone I think). His reaction times were down to a super human .15s. It has been shown that he simply could not have reacted to the lights and hit them in that time if it was only taking the nerve timing into account. There must have been a certain amount of prediction but the other factor is the 'correct response' part of the brain. If he had to process what he was going to do before doing it, it delays the reaction time a good deal. After his little practice session his body was tuned to responding without the 'awake' brain (conciseness) therefore his reactions were quicker. None of this indicates how there could be a better male/female response time as it well known that males (due to testosterone) are better able to shut off the 'awake' brain and simply rely on reactions (getting into the 'zone' - focusing on a single task to the exclusion of everything else). This is actually why females are better at (or at least are genetically predisposed at being better) sims. In a sim you cannot rely on your reactions as you are not being fed the right information to do so. In a sim it is not about balance and feeling the car, you have to translate the visual and audio stimulus into motion information before reacting. The article detailed that it was due to some left/right brain split that enabled females to do this better. The best drivers are the ones that have enough capacity to allow the reactions to deal with the driving of the car and get the rest of their brain to do the thinking for the race, that is the difference between the Prosts, Sennas, Schumachers of the world and the Coulthards, Trullis and all the others that are quick but not really championship material.

Having said all that the more realistic a sim the easier it is to translate the information into 'feeling' a car. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that they can feel the car slide long before it happens and it feels just like it does on the road. After a couple hours of practice last night I was dizzy when I stopped racing, I'm pretty sure this was down to the lack of movement relative to the perceptual movement of the game.

Anyway, genuinely, I'd be interested in information on reaction times if they have proof that there is a genetic split. Cognitive science was one of the more interesting things at uni.

I showed the same reaction time improvement at the Science museum in Boston. They have a reaction tester. When I tried it 'cold' I was getting 0.22-0.25 secs reaction times, and this was favourable compared to their charts of results. Eventually, with total focus to the task, I had shaved it to 0.13 - 0.15 secs.

I guess most people's reactions when alert but not totally focused (in the 'zone', whatever) are going to be around the 0.2-0.3 seconds. Rather than a driver or athlete having particularly great reflexes, most of the skill is how quickly and completely they focus and how long they can stay there. Obviously there are many other areas that distinguish athletes - there is no use of great reaction times if the reactions you make are wrong....

Quote from Scawen :

....
In fact each car will need a "gearbox type" (sequential or H shifter) and that would allow for old single seaters if one would be added in future.....

Yes please

I'm with Axebreaker on this and maybe there is a different mentality between different racing series, whether it's karting, road cars, or open wheelers.

For me, if a driver attempts to pass on the inside, I think (and I'm talking general road racing), unless they are cleanly past they should keep it tight and not force the other guy to take avoiding action. If the defending driver sticks it out on the outside they should be given the room and not driven off the track. Likewise, I don't think the outside defending driver should cut up someone who's alongside.

Things are not always as clearcut as the standard inside overtaking manouver, and incidents will happen, but many are avoidable. I see a lot of 'it was my line' attitude by people overtaking or defending in online racing, where if a little consideration was taken they'd have got further without damage and wouldn't spend most of their time arguing. You can put some of it down to poor visibility in online racing an some of it down to very aggresive tactics.

In LFS there is no danger or cost to a collision. Maybe karting is the real life closest equivalent, where the karts are robust, cheap (by motorsport standards), and the speeds and dangers are low (again, by motorsport standards).

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Doesn't it look really obvious from those onboard stills that Montoya wasn't close enough? I know LFS isn't F1, but I would've backed out of that before the corner.

Those onboard shots seriously distort (lengthen) distances. Montoya was closer than it looks in the stills.

I think Montoya's having a nightmare of a season, and it's a big shame. He's definitely the marmite of F1 drivers. People love him or hate him, but even as a fan, I'm really disapointed how it's turned out at McLaren.

Quote from joen :

what exactly have you been doing in front of your PC?

Not just me with a mind in the gutter then

Quote from fujiwara :

it's true, and my eyes are watering...i'm finaly S2.

Thank you Fluid.Takahashi.
LUV U S2.

I was wondering where that thread title was going !

Anyway, welcome

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

If I was forced to drive a RHD car I would probably have to give up LFS, and I've NEVER said that before. That's the worst idea ever conceived my friend!

If I was born & raised in a RHD country, I'd say the same thing about LHD. It's just a preference that I don't ever want to have to change, it would be nonsense to be forced to drive one or the other.

I realize you weren't adamant on this suggestion being the way to fix things, I just shudder at the mere mention of it.

I've never really looked at it closely enough to notice a performance difference or advantage due to weight distribution or balance. To be honest, I have bigger problems to worry about! There may be a visibility advantage too (if the windscreen pillar obscures the view more on one side than the other for circuits that are clockwise or anticlockwise), but again I've not really made the comparison.

I'm currently living and driving in the US, so I find sitting on the left in my virtual car more comfortable that the right. For me it's just natural at the moment. If I was back in the UK, I'd probably switch back to the right in LFS. It's just what I'm used to at the moment, but it doesn't take too long to adjust (like in real life). At least there isn't the problem of virtually walking around to or climbing into the wrong side of the car in LFS

As to making it a 'forced' option, I don't think it's vitally important (even if there is a slight performance advantage to one or the other) and would certainly piss a lot of people off. I think I'd choose having server a option for turning off auto lift on gearchange before an option forcing which side the driver sits.