Quote from chanoman315 :

but remember you dont like to share sets

hey, for a hundred quid i'll share my butthole with the comunity.

k. i win this. no one else needs to participate cause i am the bestest and u dont stand a chance.

It is your problem and your personal opinion. It does not have any hold over me or anyone else. In LFS sets might matter even more because, apart from the driver, they are the only thing that separate one car from the other (all drivers in same cars ofcourse). Again, people's ability to produce good setups depend on their driving and objectivity - so your sets (and many other people's) dont have a chance in hell of being anywhere near good enough.

So if I give my set to bawbag and he takes down a WR I should forbid him to upload it? That's just silly. On the other hand, I can't really count on people being fair - can I? I think this is a good time to quote Mark Donohue. The book is "The Unfair Advantage", page 85, chapter about LOLA T70. Setup is as follows: at the first race at Elkhart Lake, Dan Gurney's car was pretty slow and had some suspension problems, but when Dan showed up for the next race the car was heaps faster. So now the actual passage by Mark Donohue:

"When Dan showed up at the next race he had a different rear suspension and the car was lots faster. He had moved the control arm brackets around and fabricated new wishbones, probably based on his experiences with the Ford factory team efforts. I didn't understand why, and I was really curious about it. Even though I still didn't know him, he seemed like such a likeable guy that I asked him. "Please, would you mind telling me what you've done here?" Dan sat down and said, "Look, we all work really hard in racing to be a little bit better than the next guy. Roger (Penske) has a lot of ins that I don't have, like getting pieces from Chevrolet and cars from Lola. Now maybe I understand suspensions a little bit better than other people, and that may give me some small advantage. I would be stupid to tell that to anyone." I thought that was a really good answer. He could have said, "Go shove it!" but instead he calmly and sensibly said what I always say now when asked a similar question. After that I never asked a competitor a question, and I seldom offered any solutions. Whenever I did, I'm sorry to say, I usually lost somehow because of it."

So, to sum up. Bawbag is probably the most naturally talented driver in LFS, it took him the shortest amount of time to go from nob to consistant WR holder and race winner. His sets, I'm sorry to say, usually suck (for normal people) becuase they are too edgy (oversteery) because he can balance the car on a much finer line than me. On the other hand, I lack talent, but I make up for it by reading countless books on driving and car mechanics and suspensions. So if this setup (or any other setup) is the tool which allows me to come to a same level (or at least really close) to Bawbag or any other "alien" for that matter - it is only because I've put in the work and made a set that is very driveable with the correct technique (trading off braking for cornering forces smoothly). So who are you, or even who is Victor, to say that it's "fair game" to just take it?

P.S. People who don't know basics about how springs and antiroll bars work wont benefit from seeing "oh look it's a harder suspension for this track". They will just copy without any understanding and still not be able to drive it because it is not tailored to their style or level of skill. So please just quit trying to justify "stealing". Or even if you do steal or take what is not yours - give credit where credit is due. And credit for most good FZR setups that float around your folders goes to Sracer - because it was his Aston GP set from almost 2 years ago that is STILL the base for many of the sets out there (including the as3 set in question).

k, patience then. tnx for the speedy reply.

Didn't know if I should post this here, but it's a problem in Y19 too so.. I'm gonna bring it up here. During a race, if you pull up the F12 menu and request some setup changes (like more negative camber in the pitstop - because you might have 1 of the suspension arms damaged and the middle layer of the tire is heating up the most) - as soon as you stop it fixes all the damage (even though the damage repair is set to NO!). Please fix this as BF1 races are almost impossible with losses of up to 20 seconds on fixing damage (and damage is picked up even on the straights, and obviously on realistic curbs).

So, if the damage repair is set to NO and we request some setup changes like pressure or camber, even wings - make it not fix everything and then do the setup adjustments. Please.

Me not giving people a set is not a challange for you to go and steal it from a spr. I've had the sub-wr time on aston national for the past 3 months almost and never felt the need to upload it just cause of people like you (and others whom I have occasionally asked for a set and got "SRY TEAM SET" excuses). So it is _NOT_ bawbag's set (in fact he can't even drive it cause it's just heaps of understeer - because of his lausy driving technique :nod so he changed some of the things you cant see from a raf. In any case, the set first came from Biernot (SKA69) in the previous patch even, and then I worked on it and now it's credited to Bawbag. And you wonder why people wont give away sets easily (at least people who actually put in the work on the set).

Call me whatever you want but I was not and am not ever gonna be one of the people who are affraid to give a set to someone because that someone might "beat me". Hell, I gave the set to bawbag and still he got pwnt online. EPIC FAIL.

Don't go around stealing sets. Learn. Make your own. When you are able to build decent sets we might exchange some - me just giving away setups and still having to build them for every new combo just doesn't make any sense.

1 suggestion though: for some of the people who would like to see the "traction circle of things".. can you make the little black balls in the G-meters leave a thin trace line that would stay there for like 1 second? So it keeps drawing it, but old parts of the line get deleted as the car drives on. And maybe this too, depeding on the car's ability to pull a G amount, draw a circle with that G value that would remain permanent. So for regular cars it can be at 1.05 or 1.10 G, and for FZR or BF1 it can be 3/4.. basically read the maximum value of the lateral G from the raf and draw a circle with that radius. Can this be done?

Gtr2? Traitor.

Imo, it doesnt fail even then.. We had some phantom "caster" damage in Aston GP with FZR and the front left tire was locking under braking, and one patch (of 16) got to the temp around 400+ °C but the tire didnt pop, I just moved all the brake bias to the rear and drove it until the pitstop where we fixed damage. Only times when I got the tire to blow was if the layer was just flatspotted over and over in the same place and just wore too thin.. in LFS there are no hotspots, blistering etc etc.. wish there was.

Ok. Conclusion. Pressure set in the pits is "cold" pressure, and when the tire warms up 20-30°C the pressure obviously rises but not by a lot - is there any way to actually know the value of the pressure at a certain tire temp? I mean other than guestimating or "ideal case" thermodynamics. I would like to know how LFS handles pressure changes - anything other than that is an exercise in futility.

oh crap. I just took a look at the "advanced setup guide" and yea - it's the temperature inside the tire and not the pressure. Which is quite pointless On the other hand, you say that the tire pressure that we chose in the pits/garage is the one that we end up with when the tire is at optimal temps - but how can this be? The logical thing would be that it's the pressure in the tire @ the temp you leave the pits with.. can someone prove this or the opposite?

Hokay, rare occasion when I ask for help - but it was bound to happen

Without questioning the infinite wisdom of the LFS tire physics model - can someone please answer the following questions (with proof hopefully).

LFS tires are "preheated" already when we exit the pits to let's say 15°C below their "optimum" operating temperature. The color of everything in that stage is dark blue (surface, tire walls, pressure inside the tire). As we go out and do a lap or two the temperatures of the thread ofcourse go up and over the tire's life span they can go to the red zone and then slowly go back to brownish and green and in the end back to blue - when they usually pop. Now, the inside of the tire (the area where the air is) also changes color - goes to blue-ish/green or green during a normal race, but can go to brown/red if you just do a burnout - my understanding is that this color represents the pressure inside the tire (and not the air temperature inside the tire - cause that would be pretty useless).

Question number 1: (by Jonesy) "like, say I put 200kPa in a tire, warm it up to 120degs would give me the same amount of psi in a tire as if I put 180kPa and warm it to 120degs?"

With my limited knowledge of thermodynamics I kinda used a simplified politropic equation to calculate the following example: We have a tire with 200 kPa @ 25°C, we warm it up to 90°C and get 240 kPa in it (these kinda numbers are usually correct in "other sims", I cannot say for real life because I never actually measured a pressure after the tire has been driven/races - but it's safe to say the pressure goes up - the problems come up when we ask by "how much"). We have a second tire with the cold pressure of 220 kPa @ 25°C and we warm it up also to 90°C - how much will the pressure rise? The method I used for this (not taking into consideration how the tire actually produces heat and ignoring the volume etc) is a simple politropic function that states

T2/T1 = (p2/p1)^(n-1/n)

T's - are temperatures in Kelvins
p's - pressures in kPa
n - politropic exponent (not sure about the proper english term)

From the first case (200 kPa @ 25°C -> 240 kPa @ 90°C) I got the n being 12.238 (which is wierd because n is usually from 1-1.4, 1.4 being kappa). But let's go forward anyway, that n was used for the second case to get the p2 or the hot pressure of the tire. The resulting p2 equaled 272 kPa (from 220 kPa @ 25°C to 272 kPa @ 90°C). So the answer to Jonesy's question was: you would get a higher resulting pressure in the first case (the higher cold pressure).

Now back to the LFS realm. One thing I've noticed in LFS is (if the inside colouring is actually the pressure) the lower cold pressure you put into a tire - the higher resulting hot pressure you will get. This is kind of opposite to the example I calculated above - but I think it is correct (and my whole calculation was an EPIC FAIL) because it takes into consideration of how the tire actually produces heat.

Tristan (as you are probably going to be the first one to reply cause ur such a forum fanboy ) - correct me if I'm wrong: as I understand it, the tires' ability to produce heat depends on it's ability to deform - no deformation no heat. Ofcourse the actual friction and sliding (slip angles) of the thread help this quite a bit - but in LFS not as much. Why not as much? The example I can provide is if you take a MRT out on any track, put 150 kPa cold pressure in all the tires (cold in this case is already preheated but who cares) - drive some laps and notice that the color inside the tire (pressure area) remains blue or even goes darker towards black - surface temperature also remains blue or barely greenish. Now cut the cold pressure in half say 70-80 kPa and do some laps. Resulting temperatures and pressures are both higher, inside of the tire is green, sidewalls are green, surface temps are green.

So if my understanding was correct.. When a tire has a lot of cold pressure and is just rock hard, it cannot deform and produce temperature. But then again - if you put in lower cold pressures and you get a higher hot pressure because of it. On the other hand, the overinflated tire should be prone to sliding much more and the surface temperatures should actually be higher, shouldn't they? Just to get back to MRT example for a sec - the cold pressure that you leave the pits with actually drops even more as you are driving and the air is cooling the tire - I would expect it to at least remain constant, but I guess the rate of cooling is higher than the rate with which it can produce temps? That's kinda the question number 2

Finally, question number 3/suggestion: (maybe move this post into Improvement suggestions section - I've only put it here because it will get more views ) Can we please get a pressure reading added into the F9 menu - so just a number inside the color of the "air" that will tell us the exact value of the pressure as the tire goes through it's temperature/life cycle? I don't think this would be such a huge deal to add, especially if we consider real life where we could test this very easily - just inflate a tire - drive - connect the pressure gauge after 2 laps. There are even pressure sensors in newer cars that monitor pressures in real time and report to the driver (for all the people who were about to say "Can u see tire pressures in real cars while driving?" - yes you can.)

P.S. One more thing. The F9 menu inside a FZR looks normal (tire load above tire temp in numbers above the thread temps in color) but in FO8 and BF1 the temperatures in numbers are overlayed on the thread temps in color making the colours and the numbers hard to read - this might just be due to the fact that tire profiles in openwheelers are larger than in GTR's but maybe it can be fixed somehow? If it's too much hassle then forget about it.

Last edited by scipy, Mon 28 Apr 2008, 18:22.

Quote from Jonesy_ :

well, shouldn't you know? bitch.

I know nobody remembered it's your birthday today, but that doesn't mean you should deny yourself some buttseckz tonight.. U be nice to me or I'll be closed for buisness.

Quote from Jonesy_ :

You are doing it wrong.

That's what his gf tells him too.. prolly

XRR is the harderst to drive fast. It's easily flippable on curbs, the turbo lag makes it impossible to catch NA cars out of corners, also the 627 Nm of torque just liquifies the tires at standing starts, the larger front to rear tire sizes make it quite a bit more oversteery, the weight distribution makes the braking difficult (even though it has wider front tires) and slow.

sign me up to scotty.

Quote from Scawen :

Not relevant to what?

It is unprofessional to leave two pixelated and ugly things sticking out when everything else is antialiased.

I'm trying to finish S2 and these are unfinished things. Please, don't complain when I spend a couple of hours making the interface look better. A couple of hours here and there do not delay the "important things" you are waiting for like parts breaking off which will take weeks. It's silly to grumble about small improvements that I just do as I come across them while cleaning up the code and fixing bugs in a compatible patch.

Understandably, in order for S2 to be finished, all this has to be taken care of. But please answer me this: with parts breaking off the car, like front wings etc - is it going to affect downforce? Is the deformation of the front in GTR cars gonna affect downforce or handling? The parts that fall off, are they gonna be able to puncture tires? If yes - great - happy coding. On the other hand, if it's gonna be there just to look pretty and to satisfy people who are into having acidents and crashing most of the time - then it is "unrelevant". The more urgent things should be stuff that actually affect the race like engine temperatures, brake temperatures, traction chaning off the ideal line, maybe wet conditions/dynamic weather and other things that lesser games like "GTR2" have for years now.

I appreciate that you don't want to code something if it's not going to be perfect, cause objectivley - most of the things in LFS are many levels better than in other games - but just to let you know: old LFS drivers, who have been with it from the start are quiting, losing motivation and the will to believe that "next patch is gonna bring something meaningfull". Y patch did bring many improvements, but most of the things basically stayed the same. Furthermore, I am aware that when a game is this far into development, it takes more coding to make small improvements than it took in the past to make huge leaps forward. But try to keep it in prospective with the upcoming patches. Everyone who's driving left me at "aw" when I was starting out - have quit now. Community has always been loyal to you, maybe even to the extent that there are too many "yes man" around who drool at every patch, but think about the old guys - if it weren't for them and their driving, LFS wouldn't be what it is today and I (many others too I guess) wouldn't have aspired to get better at it.

Last edited by scipy, Wed 9 Apr 2008, 22:31.

Saved SP Replay - Bawbag_SK1_SS_(insert_track_record).spr

hm, dont know if this is supposed to be so but: in XRR, clutcless upshifts with ignition cut work like a dream, but on downshift there is no clutch - and imo it should be, at least that's how a racing sequential works (cut on upshift, but downshifts are straight forward heel and toe). I checked the driver settings and auto clutch was on (for XRR) but on braking and downshifting the clutch wasnt coming on.. and it's really hard to blip without the clutch, i.e. if u blip a milisecond too early it doesnt even let u downshift cause ur "on throttle".

plz tell me if i'm just wrong or should the clutch be working on downshifts.

and since BMW owns the nurburgring... scawwwennnn get it into LFS or i'm gonna cut my wrist.

imo, it's actually a good idea, i'd love to see some huge LFS stickers on buildings but, can that in any form bring problems to LFS devs? cause people sue the crap out of each other for near to nothing these days.. and someone can get the idea that LFS devs are incouraging this kind of behaviour and then hold them responsible.

Quote from wsinda :

I've been thinking along the same lines. There should be a 'playback' toolbar where you can start, pause, fast-forward etc. While the playback runs you can see cursors moving in the graphs and in the 'driving line' pane. You should also get the choice to have either time or distance along the X axis of the graphs.

I can't say when it'll be ready, though. There are many worthwhile features on the list, and I haven't made plans for the next version yet.

tnx for the reply, i'm happy just knowing it'll be in there one day, no hurry

is there any way to make the raf file "playable", like.. in analyze for speed u can watch the "cars" move and u see pedals and steering etc - that's all fine but after that u are left with no real graphs or values.. what i'd like is u open a new graph let's say "throttle over time" and "brakes over time" it shows them as it is now, but just put a play button somewhere and when u click play it starts to draw the graph at real time speed of the raf. maybe get a feature to slow it down like AFS and pause etc.. maybe even have that little dot move around on the driving line view. that would be very usefull (imho).

my attitude is totally pwnage (imo - and mo is the only one that mathers to me). i should just try to do what i've been doing since i bought S2.. just stay away from forums. someone said it perfectly: the more posts u have, the worse ur driving is.

i've been applying the same policy in real life, when i come across an ignorant person with the "i am right because i've been doing it so for xy years", i just have no reason to share any knowlege with them, and knowlege is power and i like power. i also like the looks on their faces after getting beaten by their vehicle of choice. i absolutley LOVE the wide variety of excuses that follow that look.

p.s. i dont know everything, and i'm inteligent enough to recognize that. why other people can't even consider the posibilty of beeing wrong is beyond me, and there it will stay cause i don't want a bleading ulsar in my stomach from dealing with those sorts of people.

kiss to tristan, i'm outta here.