Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after watching the replay, but I thought gaps were calcuated to the respective class leader e.g. GT1 having nothing to do with GT2. But this works too.

Me, fast? I ain't the one winning iRacing championships

Can someone explain to me how #low GT2 managed to be a lap down when the results on the server showed them as the only team not lapped in GT2? I even congradulated maxy on not being lapped.. they finished 40.36 seconds behind us (check LFSW race details) even though they're a lap down on the GT1 leader.

P.S. If some penalties were applied I apologize (although results don't show -1 lap or anything).

Not to rain on anyone's "look-I-got-a-new-car" thread.. but Jay has had the Scirocco since that german event where he won it.. by driving the LFS Scirocco.

Quote from Fuse5 :

Yes, since every driver in MoE is there to exploit the loopholes in the rules to gain everything they can in the start, jeopardizing the outcome of the rest of the race.

Quote from scipy :

I mean even in my screenshots, there are whole rows of cars who respected the old (unwritten) rules about grid spacing.

Fuse, can you please stop being a dick just for the sake of being one? I've wrote SPECIFICALLY that it's not everyone and that 95 % of the grid followed the rule even if it was unwritten. But there was someone trying to gain everything they can at the start, jeopardizing the outcome of the rest of the race.. mostly for themselves, but it could've ended differently. Stop using the "the only elephant I ever saw was pink, therefor all elephants are pink" logic. Vote was done, admins already said the rules will be formalised and you are just using argument fallacies to try and one-up someone.

Last edited by scipy, Tue 10 Nov 2009, 14:15.

Oh, changing the tuner now, are we? In our conversation it wasnt "accidental" or "because of the inside line".. in fact it was pretty clear what your opinion was. Don't go taking it all back just because someone showed your true side. There wasn't even a HINT of remorse in our whole conversation, and it's pretty 2-faced to even try and explain your way out of this one.

As far as deko's comments go..

Quote :

I see no reason to write a rule about it...the rules are fine enough regarding this...unless someone can give me a damn good reason why no overlap is better, then I'll listen. But to be perfectly honest, I see currently no reason.

How about this for a reason: YOU GOT OUTQUALIFIED. There MUST be some sort of an advatange in having pole position, or any other position in front of someone and the fact that you say "0.05 difference" at start just proves you have no clue about relationshiop of TIME and VELOCITY. What 2 meters of difference is at 80 km/h doesn't mean it's 2 m at 200 km/h, on the contrary.. @ 200 km/h the distance will be 5.5 m.

Just because the cars look very close to each other on a regular grid at a standing start, doesn't mean the time difference is 0.05 s.

This whole discussion is becoming pointless, you are entitled to your opinions, whatever they may be. But 84 % of the drivers who voted WANT the rules (that they already obide by) to be formalised. End of discussion.

Last edited by scipy, Tue 10 Nov 2009, 09:58.

lol no.. had dinner with a friend from college who plays LFS on and off and told him about the story :P

This whole thing wasn't supposed to get this "heated".. I mean even in my screenshots, there are whole rows of cars who respected the old (unwritten) rules about grid spacing. But I guess you're always gonna have some NIKI-type there to exploit. Guess it's even true for me to some extent That's why I'm not asking for any kind of post-race penalty or whatnot.. just fix the rules so it can be avoided next time.

Last edited by scipy, Mon 9 Nov 2009, 20:51.

There was an "incident" that took place at the GT2 start of this round. MoE admins told me I was wrong. I think that's bullshit and this is the story.

NIKI started lining up to our car with more and more overlap coming from last turn onto the straight, at one point he even hit Norbi when going past the right side "apex" before the pitlane entry (and there was more than enough room to avoid contact). Following screenshots (going down) show the 2nd and the 3rd row of cars PROPERLY lined up as a grid, while NIKI keeps getting closer and closer:

http://www.team-sirius.com/downloads/lfs/O_RLY.jpg

Norbi's only possible reaction to this was to back off the throttle slightly so he would let NIKI know he's getting too close - at which point NIKI was even in front of our car. All of these actions taken by NIKI had a single purpose of messing with the grid at the start and distracting other driver/s at the start - he even confirms this during our MSN chat (log file below).

Quote :

scipy says (17:21):
all other cars are arranged nicely, except yours
so shadap and take responsibility
N I K I says (17:21):
well blah
it's cause they don't know the dirty tricks
scipy says (17:22):
wow
really?
that comment is going into the protest.
N I K I says (17:24):
i was back in on the normal line
when the flag went green
N I K I says (17:24):
and that's the end of the story
scipy says (17:24):
no.. it's not
scipy says (17:25):
becuase u manipulated the grid with ur "tricks"
which is forbidden in the IMSA/ACO rules
N I K I says (17:25):
so what
scipy says (17:25):
on which ALMS is based
which is MoE is based
so now we're gonna add some rules
N I K I says (17:25):
pff which ACO rules
scipy says (17:25):
and next time you'll be getting a stop&go
scipy says (17:25):
you even hit norbi while passing the pitlane entry
scipy says (17:26):
and u had almost a full car width to the right
N I K I says (17:26):
pff pff
i touched him a bit
scipy says (17:26):
look, at the start when you're waiting for a green flag
the last thing u need is someone hitting your car
because it breaks ur concentration
which you knew full well.. that's why u did it
scipy says (17:27):
as far as i can see, you still think u've done nothing wrong
N I K I says (17:27):
well.. they can add the rules for the next race, but in this one i was within the rules and that's all i need to know.. as far as me breaking someone's concenetration or not - that's another story and it's completley unimportant to me
scipy says (17:27):
but good thing is that's not a pre-requisite for u getting a penalty
N I K I says (17:27):
that even proves how much more i pwned him (norbi)
scipy says (17:27):
ur so wise. great job..
N I K I says (17:27):
he should never lose concentration
but when i pwn someone it's all bla bla
scipy says (17:27):
basically u've just said "rules had a loop hole which i've exploited, i pwnt norbi, well done me"
scipy says (17:27):
so we're gonna do whatever we can to disable u from doing it ever again.

After seeing the replay of the start (after 8-9 laps) I pm'd DWB to tell him we'll be filing a protest against NIKI's behaviour during the start, to which DWB replied with:


So, we didn't file a protest because the rules were vague and innacurate. There is however an interesting quote from P. Lehto:


After the whole argument with the admins, I took it upon myself to ask all of the MoE 2006/2007 season drivers about the starting procedure and get replays. All of them confirm the same thing: double file just ment you change from single file tire warming to what the grid looks like on a standing start. Also, most of them were in disbeliefe when I told them admins consider it "perfectly fine" if the car in 2nd place has 100 % overlap with the polesitter. I don't want to take up any more space but same was confirmed by Jay, n1lyn, prophet, Sracer, Norbi and the list goes on. For all of you who were "not around" before season 2007/2008 when the administration changed and rules started getting lost in translation here are some screenshot of the grid-arrangment tool and proper spacing: (order of the screenshots is left -> right in rows)

http://www.team-sirius.com/downloads/lfs/2006_KY2_Start.jpg

Also, DWB mentions several times in the 2008/9 season threads that MoE is supposed to be modeled after ALMS and follow the ACO/IMSA rules. So, here is the rulebook for ALMS (2009 version):

http://www.team-sirius.com/dow ... LES%202nd%20ED%20V2.0.pdf

And some of the quotes on rolling starts:

Quote :

6.11 STANDARD ROLLING START

6.11.3 Drivers will keep their original formation behind the pace car during the pace lap(s). On the final
pace lap, at a point designated in the SR or by the Race Director, in normal conditions, the cars
will pair up in their assigned GRID positions. In exceptional conditions, the Race Director may
require a single file start.

6.11.4 After the pace car has left the circuit, Drivers will maintain their positions on the pace lap and
must remain in line (columns) until the display of the green flag by the Official Starter. Once the
green flag has been displayed, racing may begin and passing may occur. It is imperative that the
field be packed up and in proper order approaching the Starter’s Stand. Any car which pulls out of
line or manipulates the pace prior to the display of the green flag pace may be penalized.

And the video of an ALMS rolling start where it's clearly visable that the front end of the 2nd car is lined up with the rear axle/tires of the car in front:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpYmZUpTSJc

Also, I've read a rule in FIA GT rulebook or somewhere yesterday (can't find it to save my life now) which also states that during a rolling start no overtaking can take place until you cross the start/finish line.

To conclude this novel.. Fix your wrong beliefes about "double-file" starts where it's ok to have 100 % overlap with the polesitter because I believe it's in the interest of all teams to keep their good (or bad) qualifying positions. Easiest thing to do probably is to put this up to a vote, do you (as the drivers) want to keep the current "double-file" rule and let the 2nd placed car have the option to equal your starting position.. or do you want there to be PROPER GRIDDING so everyone can keep their deserved positions.

PLUS ****ING ONE

+1

If the driver behind is in a position where he can even remotely "divebomb" a car in front which is under a WAVED BLUE FLAG and not some inter-class-move-when-u-can-or-not-at-all blue flag - that means the driver in front didn't move in a timely manner.

- Lap 6
- #41 and #39
- Lap 6, exit of last turn
- #41 has the outside line and some overlap, #39 turns right (into 41) and makes unnecesarry contact putting both cars in a wall.

- Lap 7
- #41 and #39
- Lap 7, approach to T1
- #39 changes his line on approach to T1, turning into #41 causing damage and loss of time. Clearley visable on the live-stream and from aerial view of the replay.

http://www.team-sirius.com/downloads/protest.mpr

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Pearcy, it's easy as pie. You create a new driver profile for MoE. Set your proper name, set your license plate, delete your binds, have your skin selected ahead of time. Easy peasy. No penalties, no stress. It just takes 5 minutes of preparation, and if you can't be arsed to do that, it's not my problem.

+11111 DWB UR SO HAWT!!

/leave britney alone

41 Team Sirius
GT2 FZR
Jay, Marco Schade, Germany
Ladinho, Lado Gluscevic, Serbia
Norbi, Norbi Kiss, Hungary
scipy, Sasa Pasic, Croatia
Sracer, Petri Purhonen, Finland

My combo still runs above 30 fps on a 32 car grid in 1920x1200 resolution with 4xFSAA and 16xAF:

Asus P5B Deluxe mbo
Intel E6600 Core2Duo
GeForce 8800 GTS 640 mb
2 gb of DDR2

I've put together a pc for a cousin of mine recently, and prices on everything have dropped drastically.. as long as u get some decent 9 series GeForce (or an equivalent ATi card) with around 1 gb of ram on it, a decent CPU and 4 gb of ram.. ur set for the next 5 years of LFSing.

George Norcaro, can I be called boothywoofy too?

Dashboard lights look decent in xfg/xrg.. but in GTR cars they just look like a stream of water brought them in. You could at least separate the left and right indicator lights and make everyhting not-so-huge and out-of-place.

You could get the names of the drivers right, too. For next time I mean.

It's Gluscevic, not Glusevic.

Give me back my jacket!!!

Even if you say the sample isn't representative because I've excluded crash laps/pitlaps - it's still the same standard for all teams. I didn't include it for one and exclude for another. I just don't see a point in having an average lap 2 sec slower and not anywhere near race-pace just for the sake of leaving in pitlaps, everyone should have roughly the same pitstops anyway. As for loss in traffic, this is all included (if your fastest lap was a 2:22.00 then 105 % of that is 2:29.10) so only laptimes above that are ignored, most of the traffic laps in gt2 were around 1-2 sec off pace.

As far as damage is concerned, let's say for example in real life your mechanic doesnt change a tire properly and u have to pit again so you lose another 30 sec, as soon as you get out on track you're faster than anyone else.. is it really fair to look at average lap including those 30 seconds? It's not an accurate representation of what the driver did.

I've taken statistics and probability as a part of Mathematics 3B in college, I understand all of your points and arguments - but this data selection shows what I think is the most realistic representation of what a driver does on the track during a race.

Quote from v1rg0 :

The bulk of that data is irrelevant. I took best part of 1s off my pace often in the last 3 stints by taking it easy. Damage for all teams increased throughout. I know Roque's stats are going to be skewed by the fact he drove a heavily damaged car etc. The "real gaps" don't really represent anything meaningful either as a result.

WHY U HURT ME JACK???!!! Okai, I'll never try to do anything useful again.

Here are the average laps for the top 3 teams from each class (average lap calculation excludes any lap over 105 % of the fastest lap, meaning: inlaps, outlaps, crash laps, damage fixing laps etc) in order from fastest to slowest + overall:

GT1 Top 3:

My3Id Gaming:

Hugo Luis - 2:15.420
Dave Williams - 2:15.461
Jack Basford - 2:15.652
OVERALL - 2:15.526

F1RST Racing:

Chesse Nussitaanko - 2:15.564
Andre Roque - 2:15.696
Vince Staal - 2:15.979
OVERALL - 2:15.671

spdo Racing:

Pedo Hawk - 2:15.843
Marc Gassner - 2:15.850
Teemu Hirvonen - 2:16.067
OVERALL - 2:15.919

GT2 Top 3:

Team Sirius:

Marco Schade - 2:22.699
Sissy Pasific - 2:22.796
Norbi Kiss - 2:22.797 (hah suckaa)
Lado Gluscevic - 2:23.006
Hungover Purhonen - 2:23.663
OVERALL - 2:22.894

My3Id Gaming:

Niki Djakovic - 2:23.289
Karolis Klitoris - 2:23.329
Laszlo Kotrocz - 2:23.406
OVERALL - 2:23.333

SonikRealism Racing:

Mark Bambi - 2:23.307
Chris Ford - 2:24.087
Kim Andre Gjerde - 2:24.854
OVERALL - 2:23.802

Real gaps after finishing:

GT1

3id - 720:03.064
1ST - 720:45.896 (42.832 sec)
spdo - 721:32.448 (89.384 sec)

GT2

Sirius - 721:06.576
3id - +1 lap
SR - +1 lap

Quote from Scawen :

I'm not sure it would be very artistic, being able to see through the ground. That is the problem with allowing the camera to go to zero height. The bottom half of the image is underground, you can see edge of the clipping plane plus distant objects through the "ground" and it's one of those things we try to avoid as game developers. There's no cars or world there at all, just a load of textured triangles but we try to avoid showing that.

Just thought I'd add that to the discussion...

Actually, the 2nd picture you attached would be exactly what I'm looking for. I don't really need the bottom half of the screen, it doesn't even need to be 0.0 m. Any value that would enable to see almost parallel to the car's underbody (I guess even 0.1 m would work a lot better than the current 0.4). But it's not anything of critical importance, just something I'd like to have for very detailed setup-making.

Quote from Scawen :

Because it's not just a simple option which keeps the camera level to the ground (imagine that when the car goes upside down or up a steep hill).

While we're on the view settings and cameras, would it be possible to have a camera height in Shift+U mode level with the ground (0.0 m height instead of minimum of 0.4 m that it is now)? Since telemetry export of "ride height left" is based on suspension and not body height from the ground, it would be usefull to have a camera on the ground level to check for body bottoming out.

We've had problems when body sustained frontal damage and weren't sure if it's actually going to scrape the ground (the sound wasn't there during full throttle), but on braking it would scrape and unload the front tires - which would then lead to huge flatspots and tire blowing 10 laps early.

Look, you are taking things way too personally. The way in which I've "bashed" your effort is only against your idea and the time spent on developing something utterly useless. I don't know you as an individual, I don't know your background or anything else - but this is exactly why every argument I've made was based on sound logic and only aimed against this specific thing that you've made. I didn't start bashing your family or saying you should be banned or your whole thread deleted.

You've just done something stupid and useless, as everyone will at some point in their life, I know I have. But instead of actually reading what I wrote (and it prolly is the best suggestion for a "telemetry application" for now), you've just skipped over the whole thing and continued to hold to your own story like a drunk person holds a handrail. You cannot call this application "telemetry", it has nothing to do with telemetry. You say to boothy "if u agree with scipy - ok, but we should remove all his posts and his access to this thread". Why? Just because you feel ur effort is threatened by my "radical" ideas of maybe having something actually usefull?

Stop using double standards. You cant say criticism is welcome and then pick in which format you're gonna get it. My first post was a heat of the moment reaction because I literally COULD NOT BELIEVE someone would spend time making this sort of an application _AGAIN_. There's loads of virtual dashboards and server side trackers/lappers, so for anyone to spend time making something 97 % the same with other 3 % being again completley useless features, was completley beyond me. As for the stupidity comment, other than making you feel bad, what's wrong with it? I did not say anything untrue, this was a stupid thing to do, you did it - deal with it.

When jasonmatthews asked what I think would be good additions and his F9-F12 idea - I posted a solution for both. U've obviously skipped over that too, at least I've read your whole posts before passing any kind of comment.

Instead of going on and on how this is only a "early version" of your "telemetry" application and how you're gonna remove some silly features and add some questionable ones, why don't you opt for a different approach and abanndon this whole project. You could actually help the community and all the endurance teams if you made an actual telemetry application. My programming skills are limited to highschool C++ and that only enables me to make MSDOS based applications, like the one for calculating average laps over a stint while ignoring in/outlaps. Your whole argument "why don't you do a better job instead" is an argument fallacy, if you have the skillset necessary - why don't YOU do a better job than you did.

And as for the "me being a forum troll and hanging around too much" argument, I don't think 250 posts in more than 3 years supports your argument (neither does 240k km driven online). So, please stop trying to argue your point simply because it's only YOUR point and generally wrong, and instead try and make something useful.

This post reaches the limit of the time I'm willing to spend trying to re-educate you, so I guess only thing left to say is.. good luck.

hahhahahahahahahah, u just shot ur failed argument in the leg. you're gonna scream at me for saying something which most of the community (that actually DRIVES and doesn't just hang out in the forum and download useless applications) is thinking and you haven't even tested it or even know how insim works? great job. darwin award for u.

Quote from jasonmatthews :

Scipy, is there something that YOU would think is useful information that an application like this could display? I am sure the devs of this app would listen.

I would think that maybe something like tyre temps, damage and clutch temp, i.e. display the f10 f11 and f12 menus, would be pretty useful? Saves having to press keys when racing.

You can have the F9 through F12 menu on a single button on the wheel/shifter - check out http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Script_Guide

The telemetry application that I'd like to have would look something like this: http://www.team-sirius.com/dow ... /lfs/telemetry-proggy.png

I've used the LRA background as an example, but this is not an application that would display anything to the driver in real time (via insim). We take a team for example, 4 drivers, each of them just enables LFS Outgage (or runs a client-side program of this application which would enable outgage and connect to the "server") which then sends all the relevant information that outgage can send (rpm, speed, pedal position, laptimes etc) to the "server" side of the application which would run online and draw stuff in the same way LFS Remote draws cars on track in "real time".

This part would have to run online so the rest of the drivers can access the information and view the telemetry, and also so that the racing engineer or someone in that position can follow progress and tell drivers for example.. if they are downshifting into over-the-rpm-limiter revs and damaging the engine, or if they're losing speed in a particular corner so that they can do something differently there etc.

It'd basically be a "telemetry tracker" for real time data acquisition. Outgage is already there, it can perform the functions necessary to get the data from the driver's pc to the "server". The problem is that no one seems to be interested in programming the rest of the application because it'd require some serious work. But on the other hand, it wouldn't be a useless insim application like so many of the already available insim-dashboards which can display rpm and whaeva on your second screen.

So if anyone wants to make this, they'll get the scipy-thumb-of-approval (instead of the neverending list of insults that make me so popular with the forum idiots).

/out