or what about:

Do you like LFS's exclusivity?

* No, LFS should be accessible for everyone
* Yes, because I am a crap driver and don't want extra competition
* I am way too stupid to care

Quote from Blowtus :

If nothing else, this is an excellent study demonstrating how easily influenced people are by the method of framing a question

So you mean if it was worded:

Do you like LFS's Accessibility ?

* Yes, I like its level of accessibility
* No, I wish fewer people would play it
* It doesn't matter to me

the results might be different ?
surely not !

Quote from Bob Smith :

LFS isn't exclusive, it's just not that well known (compared to racing sims sold in shops and promoted).

I would say the general strength of the community seems a bit weaker than it used to be, when it's small you become a big bunch of mates, sadly that feeling can only go when there's thousands of members chatting away. Us regular old timers will still remember one another though. Just keep coming to the regional meets, or if they don't exist in your country, make them happen.

I agree completely.

LFS is inclusive not exclusive.

If it cost £5000.00...
or required a motion simulator seat...
or you needed at least one world record before you could play online...
or a supercomputer was required as minimum spec to run it...
or you had to be at least 15th in line to the throne...

That would make it exclusive...

As it is, all you need is a basic PC and a basic internet connection...
The community is somewhat exclusive (you need to shell out £24 for an S2 licence... WOW)... so its about as exclusive as any downloadable game ?

I like that level of exclusivity

blue sky thinking?

more like purple polkadot....

I guess the big question is not 'would it be cool?', but 'can it be done?'

three main resources to consider

time, money, expertise

If there is enough expertise in the community, do those experts have the time to at least do some detailed resource analysis?

work out:
how many man hours (engineer, mechanic, designer etc...) will be required (multiply by 3)...
how much money will be needed (multiply by 3)...

at least then we will know how crazy an idea this is

I guess folks who don't live in the 'base' country could go on a 'Build a LFS race car'' holiday... so with a couple of dedicated skilled permanent project leaders and a steady trickle of willing workers...

of course then there's travel expenses etc. to deal with...
If it worked, it would surely get some media coverage...

complete madness though

fix the Diff
proper race starts, jump starts etc.
tyre temps
realistic engine & gearbox damage
better aero
better wind/weather that stays on except in hotlap mode !

(and shove a potato up the fxo exhaust)

Quote from mrodgers :

What surprises me is how many people state that they found LFS and had to buy a wheel. I've had a wheel for the PC since my first in 1996. Hard to believe that there are that many people that LFS has introduced into the sim racing world.

Thats probably why LFS gets the cold shoulder from the other sim racing communities - for introducing the unwashed masses and their FPS attitude to the refined and delicate world of sim racing

Quote from Electrik Kar :

...I'm not a physicist/engineer so I cannot comment any further, it's just that I wonder about this purist approach- the idea that if you've the correct data, in theory it should all just work the way it's supposed to. At some point, if you want your simulation to be believable, to feel right, to behave realistically, you're going to have to fudge some variables here and there because no matter how good the data is, it's not representative of the full spectrum of forces which are operating within the real world...

What you say is partly true, but you have to understand that there is more than one way to use the data.

If your simulation works by storing loads of data for all normal contitions, then reading from that data as those conditions arise, any time an unusual contition arises that you don't have accurate detailed data for, you will have to fudge it, and it will seem awkward and unrealistic to the user....
The more data you have, the better it gets, but you will never have enough data for every eventuality..

The other approach is to use the data as a development tool... you look at the data, then design a mathematical model... you then run the model using the same conditions that generated the data... you look at the output of the model and compare it to the original data... you tweak the model... and repeat the process each time bringing the output of your model closer to the real data.
The beauty of this approach is that if your model workd for situations that are 'known' it is very likely that it will also work for situations for which you have no detailed accurate data.
Any time more data becomes available that highlights flaws in your model, you can repeat the iterative tweaking and testing of your model in order to bring its output closer to the 'output' from reality.

This second way is more difficult and requires a deeper more creative use of maths and physics, but ultimately it will produce a more natural feel because the simulated environment is always true to itself.

I'll leave it to you to work out which sim uses which approach

Not addicted - the last time I remember being addicted was in the few months following the release of the MRT5... but the whole development project is compelling - even during the long stretches when I don't play, I always read the forum and keep up with the news... So I suppose I'm addicted the the LFS project rather than the LFS game

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

The first quote is a backwards argument. If you really believe in something you should never vocalize it? If someone comes to me and says "Guess what? The sky is yellow!" I should just accept their view as "their personal view" and forget about it? Personally, if I wasn't sure... then that's when I would keep my mouth shut.... Not the other way around

First of all, it wasn't an argument, it was a suggestion followed by a related observation. Secondly, please don't try putting words in my mouth - it's pretty obvious what I meant... but just in case you really didn't understand, and were really not trying to twist my words in order to more easily attack me:
I said that folks should be confident and relaxed about others with different opinions - implying that they SHOULD express their own opinions but in a relaxed and confident way rather than an extreme, sarcastic and/or agressive manner (which seems to be more and more common around here).

Quote :

All this bleeding heart leftwing liberal relativism is becomming extremely annoying and all it does is promote mediocrity and some people actually care about excellence.

I'm not sure how you can assume to know my political or philosophical beliefs from that post ? For what it's worth nothing I have said supports the promotion of mediocrity, and I do care about excellence... that why I got involved here, I believe LFS has the potential for excellence and that there are a number of people around here with attitude problems who are a threat to it's success

Quote :

When something is clearly, definitively, absolutely and objectively incorrect (such as the shape of a slip curve for example) there is no productivity whatsoever in trying to promote it as something it's not.

Yes, so what relevant point are you trying to make? maybe you should go back and re-read my posts in this thread...

Quote :

As someone who has a passion for cars, it's terribly frustrating to see something being marketed as "The Ultimate Driving Simulator", when it's very very clearly NOT what it makes itself out to be. What about the "mob mentality" that reads that tagline and then one million people purchase it under the presumption that it is in fact the pinnacle of physical simulation and then argue incessantly that "it is the best because it says it's the best", all the while THAT mob cannot seem to discern any (dreadfully blantant) problems in said sim. It's simply called passion, which to those who don't have it for anything simply looks fanatical. You have just as much right to ignore Tristan's opinion if you don't think it's valid as he does to post it in whatever fashion he sees fit (well, within the forum rules obviously).

I can't argue with any of this...
Tristan and anyone else can indeed post whatever they like within the forum rules. If they like they can attack every new visitor, potential licence purchaser, or potential influential supporter... that is their right. What I'm saying is that if they do chose to attack people in this manner, it reflects badly on the LFS community, and by association on the LFS brand.

Last edited by col, Tue 6 Feb 2007, 21:20.

First of all, My post wasn't directed only at you Tristan - sorry if it seamed that way - I just used part of your post as an example.

Quote from tristancliffe :

...
The second point is the one about untamed praise. Do you see my saying LFS is perfect? No, although I often say it's likely to get better (thus implying it NEEDS to get better). But some (though not ALL) ASS articles are so complimentary about a product to be a bit of a joke, and it was this I was referring to.

You have misunderstood my post - I'm not defending non-critical reviews and I'm not saying that you shouldn't criticise them. The problem is the way you (and you're no where near the worst) do it. It is possible to express dislike or disinterest in somthing without being rude or sarcastic! You seem to have good enough grasp of english that you don't have much of an excuse ?

Quote :

If I don't like, say, GTR2 that doesn't make me a bad person, just like someone who likes it isn't a bad person. They can say they like it, and I can say I despise it. I don't troll on the GTR2 forums saying how rubbish it is, and I generally keep my thoughts to myself on this here forum too.

Heh, a case in point - why, instead of saying you don't like it and explaining why in a level headed way, would you feel the urge to say you despise it... probably closely followed by exaggerated negativity and sarcasm ?
Come to think of it why would anyone 'despise' a sim ?

Quote :

And I write all of this, yet people still want unbiased articles on the sim racing scene? Yeah, right.

Hmm, your main criticism of ASS articles seems to be that none of them are critical enough - if thats the case that would make them reasonably unbiased

Quote from tristancliffe :

....
However, that doesn't change the fact, for me, that any ISI/Gmotor simulation is only worth using as a frisbee, and has next to zero good points. And therefore I choke when I see ANYONE (including in ASS, or an LFS ezine) mount untamed praise on one of those sims' shoulders, because it quite patently isn't THAT good.

I was trying to keep out of this thread, but... oh well...

I read through your post Tristan, and was thinking that it seemed intelligent and reasonable until that last paragraph.. which is just another example of an immature and negative mentality that is spreading here like a bad dose of H2N1

I just don't get it - why are so many of the vocal LFS supporters so aggressive and unreasonable?
If they truly believe (like I do) that LFS is head and shoulders above the rest, then they should be confident and relaxed about others folks having slightly different opinions... so maybe they're not so sure ?!

It seems obvious to me that most of the current sims that are are in competition with LFS are very good - they have loyal fans, large user bases, accurate physics, excellent content etc. The ASS folks would not be positive about them if they were not of a high quality. (These guys are not stupid, they are experienced simmers, and are intelligent and dedicated. And, at least in this 'discussion', have proved themselves to be a cut above the average LFS eejit)
It's a sad reflection on LFS when the LFS 'pack' start throwing schoolboy style vitriol around. The most sickening thing though is when they get pally and back up each others petty and aggressive behaviour..

I want LFS to succeed and grow - when representatives of other parts of the wider sim community 'visit' we should be polite and helpful and try to build relationships with them - this would be good for them, good for LFS and good for us as a community. But time and again, the same thing happens - they come here to see what the all fuss is about LFS, and they are attacked mercilessly until they leave with a very bad taste in their mouths.

LFS forum is like the Royston Vasey of the sim world - and they 'aren't local'.

You guys with the pack mentality are damaging LFS !

Quote from Victor :

I don't agree with this assumption that's been mentioned before at all. In fact, this is what I think makes a magazine weak and uninteresting. Why not say the truth instead, rather than being polite all the time? Who's gonna learn from reading 'this is great' while in fact it is not? Even a developer must realise that if some feature or functionality of their game is being slaughtered in a review, then there just must be something wrong there and they need to work on that! If a developer would be breaking contact with a magazine for telling the truth about something related to their product, then excuse me, but that developer is just not worth being reviewed anymore.

Why be weak and please the developers? Who are 'you' (generic term) writing for? The public or the developers?

Yep, better to be critical but fair, tell it like it is and gain respect and popularity from the community - then devs will still be knocking on your door for exposure, but instead of you being worried about what they will(or won't) say, they will be worried about what you might say !!

Quote from mrodgers :

Yup, what Dajmin said there. When we first aquired the ability to disallow mid-race join, everyone was setting the servers up that way. And what happened is, people would log onto the server, try to join the track with the current race underway, not be able to join, and leave for another server. Eventually as those on the server logged off to go to bed or whatever, the number of racers would diminish to too small amounts to have a race.

If the multiplayer server list was updated with a few extra features, this wouldn't be a problem...
WinVROC for GPL is a great example. Most servers when I used to race had at least 15mins qualification, there was no mid race join, and often no car reset.
The main difference is that in the server list, you could see how much quali time was left on each server, so you could either go at the start of quali if you're a noob to the combo, or near the end if you're an alien and only needed 1 quali lap to get pole.
You could iirc set your server list so that the servers with least quali time to go were at the top... This meant that more people hang around in the 'lobby', so you get to chat with folk who: 1 - are not racing, and 2 - don't have to be into the same combos as you. Having experienced this approach before, I would be pretty happy to have this kind of setup in LFS - right now, the 'Lobby' is a joke.
Another benefit of this setup is that one common problem of LFS is less prevalent - when there are a few popular servers that are full and you can't get in, and the rest are nearly empty. Instead of heading for the full servers, folks tend to head for servers where theres only a few minutes of quali left to go... you can also all meet in the lobby and agree to joint the same server for the next race... Seems like a much more flexible and sociable approach than the current LFS setup.

In GPL you couldn't even join a server when a race was under way - I think that would be too extreme, but LFS could certainly improve by using some of the features of WinVROC

Quote from Dajmin :

...

Is that Starion by David M Webb in your avitar ?

Quote from JohnPenn :

I've bought 2 racing games/simulations in the last 9 years the first was GPL , the pleasure and sheer addiction from GPL lasted 5 years and I will never forget those days.

Then I downloaded the LFS demo and it started all over again,and its still going strong, My biggest wish is for the sounds in LFS to reflect the Buzz I still get from driving the cars .

I vote long life.

I was going to write almost exactly what you did...
I guess we are just stereotypically "canny"

My view on LFS is that it IS getting old !
but its aging like a single malt not like a half finished packet of digestives.
It just gets better every year.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

I think Victor might want to kill me, I've had to have an account recovered twice, the same one, for the same reason.

He doesn't want to kill you, but you got him so stressed that he went and had a haircut !!!!! :-o

Quote from Gener_AL (UK) :

LFS`s Music is simply awesome very subtle stuff , "nova" "keep on going" "feel the silence" , was maybe the 2nd thing that made LFS stand out from the crowd for myself..


Maybe worth trying fruity loops, but i guess you have ?

noooo, fruity is fun, but Orion beats it in every department.
(btw, for those who don't know, Orion vs Fruityloops is like LFS vs rFactor... but older and more bitter )

now to keep on topic, I'm another who turns the music off right away in a sim - if I want music, I have a rather large collection to chose from... I found the soundtrack to 'A Few Dollars More' to be pretty good for Blackwood in the demo days, but more recently it's been no music at all for me.

Quote from Lautsprecher[NOR] :

The 303 is NOT a drum-machine, it was meant to be a bass-synth for bands who could'nt get a bass player, but the techno-"scene" figured out ways off making it misbehave. and *pafoomf* Electronic music is changed forever.

yep, also, if you want to get a pretty good idea of what it was like to use, there is a simulation of it available called 'rebirth' which is now a free download from propellerheads software.. iirc it has 2 303s, an 808 and a 909... great fun to play with and there are loads of demo tracks on the net.
you will find it here
Just create an account, and download the iso (assuming you have a cd writer)...

Quote from the_angry_angel :

No server is safe. The entire community has collectively ganged up on you, like a modern-day-sim-racing-borg-collective. We will hunt you down and destroy your soul, forcing you to play repetitive ISI and EA games for all eternity.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

If you need to moan, I suggest trying the local barbers. My local was full of men bitching today - as usual. It seems to be the socially acceptable equivilent of a psychotherapy session, without booze.

I agree, go to the barbers, and start moaning to everyone about how you are having hard luck in your virtual on-line racing simulation that you spend all your spare time playing... I guess that would be a good way to get a nice peacful haircut without the barber or anyone else attempting to start a conversation with you

Quote from Becky Rose :

Currently LFS is designed to cater to the first group, and to some extent the second group is starting to be catered for via the community driven race licensing system. So we are starting to get the best of both worlds.

It started to get better, but there's a long way to go
Last night I spectated a couple of races on the STCC silver/gold server. Big field, about 12 fxos and 2 xrts. I was watching a very fast and very experienced xrt racer. He went to (or near to) the front in each race due to the fast starting car. Then one by one, fxos cought up and passed. I would say that of the ones that cought an passed probably 80% of them tapped him wide in corner entry before passing - noone apologised, and none slowed and waited after the taps. This seems to be getting worse not better on the silver server, fxos often have a huge majority, and many of the drivers seem unwilling or unable to respond the different handling and performance of the xrts.

The problem with these incidents are that although they break the rules, they are not serious 'wrecking', and there are so many of them that it would be a full time job reporting them all - so they seem to have quickly become acceptable... people are starting to realise that most of the time they won't get reported...

These drivers would all pass any 'tests' easily, so that would be no help... it seems to be an attitude problem - a few are arrogant ****s who believe that if they are faster than another car for any reason, they have the right of way, and can do what they like to get past, but many just have no manners, so if they get it wrong at corner entry and tap they guy in front, instead of apologising and waiting, they just fire on through like it was a 'good pass'.
(I did it once last night myself in the heat of battle, and felt guilty later - an fxo tapped me and passed in a hairpin, then in the next turn - also a hairpin, I went in a bit too hot (not intentionally), and tapped him back - normally I would have apologised and waited, but I was angry after the previous turn so didn't...)

I think this is a big problem becuase IMO the only way to deal with it is to have a constant admin presence, and thats not practical without loadsamoney

Cynicism aside, your licencing system is great - it has brought a new lease of life to LFS for jaded old has-beens like me

cheers

Col

Quote from kurent :

Depends on the situation. If I did spin someone around and we are both trying to get back on the track at the same time I will let him. But I'm not waiting around for him to regain control.

you should still wait... unless

Quote :

Especially if there are other cars approaching from behind.

This is the time when I've learned not to wait... if you are in traffic and you slow after tagging the guy in front, you are liable to cause a pile-up. In a league event you should wait until its safe to slow down, then let your victim past.

Quote :

What if I wait and he decides he has so much damage he doesn't want to continue. And what if he is a slow racer and I let him pass just to overtake him again?

I guess thats what they call 'tough shit'
Just let him go, then re pass him.

Quote from unseen :

ok, maybe forgetting the graphical, playable client... I`m a sad enough bastard to ask if anyone`s tried running the dedicated server on a PS3 yet?, seeing as it can connect to that intremenet thingummy. Maybe on a gentoo custom install, through wine or cedega...

It would still need to be tweaked and recompiled by Scawen for the cell architecture. So I very much doubt it will ever happen...

I dunno about a haddock, but you should be able to get it running on a black pudding supper - as long as you use plenty of salt and sauce and keep a bottle or IRN BRU handy for cooling...

(watch out for pickled eggs though - I've heard they can cause stuttering)

I've had this problem occasionally since the first S2 alpha release, There was some discussion at the time, but no real solution was found. I just made loads of tweaks to my system, and always close all non essential apps on my PC, the stuttering only happens very occasionally now. Unfortunately, when it does it usually means end of race for me - a complete graphics freeze for a few seconds... I just slam on the brakes and hope for the best.

AMD 1800xp
win2000
geforce 6600
soundblaster audigy2 'value'

EDIT: just finished a session of racing. after a couple of hours, I started getting some bad stuttering. bah

Last edited by col, Sun 7 Jan 2007, 04:29.

Quote from Vykos69 :

should be easy with the connections and support to intel, which exist (bmw)... Would just have to be done... And imho more people does have a dual or multicore CPU than win-vista...

Using existing software development methods and technology, effective, robust multi-threaded code is orders of magnitude more difficult to write than good single threaded code, suggesting it should be easy is at best naive.
Good multi-processor code is another few steps above multi-threaded code in terms of complexity and difficulty.

A reasonable analogy would be comparing a simple 2D sliding puzzle with a 2x2x2 rubik cube and a 4x4x4 rubik cube - orders of magnitude more complex.

Quote from (SaM) :

I'm just thinking here.. what if the engine would have a maximum of rebounce speed caused by the collision by two cars being 'inside of eachother'.

I mean, right now when there's a collision, the engine checks the difference of the positions of the colliding polygons of the collision meshes of the cars (how much they are inside of eachother), it checks the speed of both cars and then calculates the rebounce force and throws them outside of eachother based on that information. The more they are inside of eachother and the bigger the speed of one and/or the other car, the bigger the rebounce.

If there was a grade of, let's say, 0 m/s min to 10m/s max rebounce, depending on the severeness of the collision, wouldn't that cancel out rubber rebounce crashes?
(I've never seen cars rebounce more than a few meters after crashing with eachother other than when it still had kinetic engery that had changed its direction by the crash.)

So what I mean is, set a max speed but also spread out the possibilities for collisions to result in 6m/s, 1m/s or 9m/s for example, so not all reasonably heavy crashes will automatically cut to 10m/s because there is a max.
This would especially work well in lag crashes because lag allows cars to be practically totally inside of eachother.

In short, decreasing reaction levels and adding a limit.



(or am I just talking nonsense.)

Sounds simple, but it never is that simle in practice...
If the cars react at a slower speed to an overlap, then after the next frame there will still be an overlap... than add to that the posibility of compound overlap - more than 2 cars or additional lag... you end up with so many corner cases and exceptions that all need extra supporting code, and never really work right...
So the only suitable solution is a more accurate physics model that copes better without needing a 'fix' hacked in there.
I would guess that when the damage model is updated, this issue will change from "why did I fly to the sky after that small tap?" to "how come after that small tap my car was completely destroyed?".
:-D