Quote from Scawen :

No, each LFS pipe has three sections (headers, collector and tail pipe) which all muffle to some extent and all have different natural resonant frequencies but it is not as clever or nice as your description of possible things to simulate. A lot more can be done to make better sounds.

Are these three sections 'just' simple resonant filters?
If so, I wonder if adding just a very basic waveguide for the main exhaust pipe(s) might make a big difference - it would give a 'throat' to the sound. I know that this would be some work but I also know it is not a huge task as I have had a go with a basic waveguide implementation myself (flute), and I couldn't believe how simple it is, And how effective.... of course, adding in all the fancy refinements that I was suggesting would be a much bigger job - certainly well beyond my abilities - and if you did, I would probably need to upgrade my Athlon1800+ - but those things are probably just overkill

Quote from Vain :

Why 'tiny delay'?
...
Vain

/me takes a guess...
Maybe because each one is in a different "position" in the simulated chamber/pipe structure, so rather than model a complex structure with a seperate bandlimited filter to introduce each sound exitation at the correct position, he introduces them all at the same position but with a time delay calculated by the speed of sound and the distance down the model.... or something...
EDIT: oops, I misread - I guess its just to seperate the two pipes in space - one is always going to be a bit further away from the listner than the other, so a 'tiny' delay is a reasonable approximation ?

@Scawen - does your exhaust model include different diameters of pipe and or slightly tapered sections... or some sort of accurate simulation of joins...
I was wondering if somthing like this would introduce some slightly more chaotic (fractal) results that would give a more lively sounds rather than the current ones that seem very periodic and predictable... like the difference between a saxophone and a clarinet - sax is a cone rather than a cylinder, and this gives it a much wilder more expressive sound.....
EDIT2 I guess that even if there are no tapered sections in the system, the violence of the exhaust will be constantly deforming the pipes which will in turn alter their response - this will have a similar chaotic effect - like when you blow a trumpet hard, you get a much more raspy 'rude' timbre

Last edited by col, Tue 19 Dec 2006, 19:44.

Quote from jamesgp2viper :

Just wanted to share my thoughts about the new sounds.

The gearshift and transmission sounds are a welcome additions and add to the immersion. The gearshift sounds are very nice, but should be tad quieter for the road cars. The transmission sounds could be improved. When the car is maintaining constant speed it should make a sort of 'shaky' sound. Also the sound should be more 'rougher' when using engine braking....

Hmm good point - could the lack of a 'shaky' slightly varying note be related to discussions here on the forum a while back about lack of 'play' in the drive-chain. At the time some of the issues with grip were being partly attributed to the lack of play in the drive chain and mounting points in LFS that would exist in real life... I wonder if this also has an impact on the audio characteristics...

Quote from jibber :

I don't think it's premature. It's rather giving feedback about something that is important to us.

And what if all people who don't like it just sit on their mouth? Nobody will notice that they don't like it then.

Feedback is always good... even if it's negative, and even if this is just a test patch.

There seems to be less feedback like:
I don't like the new sound because A B C
you could improve it by D E F

and more like:
The new sound sucks - I'm going back to the old version... so there !!

Too many people react with extreme judgements, and thats just wasting a great opportunity to really help the develoment process - the little value that their negative and non-constructive comment adds is easily outweighed by the addition of extra 'noise' to the feedback process.
It would be great if more people would spend more time to try and think a bit harder about why they have the reaction they do and express their views with more accuracy... I guess thats a forlorn hope though...
Basically what this poll does is make the feedback even less precise and less personal - so even less useful ! IMO it would make sense to have a vote like this on a change to a 'release' version, but in the context of an early development test release, I think it is un-helpful.
eg. how can people say that they don't like the new sounds as much but can see a greater potential for ultimate success ?
How can they say what it is that they do or don't like ?

Last edited by col, Mon 18 Dec 2006, 15:42.

Quote from George Kuyumji :

Does the Soundsystem that works in LFS has the Potential to sound more accurate than the Sample-Sounds Engine?

I understand the idea and goal of LFS Sound System and find it interesting. But how far away are we from a System that not only generates Sounds 'on the fly', but also actually sounds as good or better than samples-generated sound?

About as far away as we are from having the graphics look as good as video fotage of real cars....
But thats not the point.

My understanding is that the sound enging is supposed to give the driver as much feedback as possible, so there will always be a compromise between visceral raw exitement caused by real sounding engine roar, and the more synthetic but much more useful sound obtained through simulation instead of record/playback.... I think right now its not good enough, but it's brand new and in testing - hasn't even made it to an alpha release, so I think folks are being very premature with their judgements...

Quote from Haikoe :

Since the U32 sounds are uncompleted testsounds. I don't want to compare them with earlier versions of the soundsystem.

For me it's like comparing a chassis of a new supercar with an existing ferrari.

So no vote from me this time.

I totally agree

Quote from Shotglass :

could we for the sake of keeping everybody happy and keeping this discussion away from flames and stupidity from either side (mostly from the ricers side tbh) get rid of the figure skating anology once and for all and exchange it with a sport that is actually cool ?
skateboarding anybody ?

I think swimming is a far more appropriate analogy...
You've got racing which is like the swim racing - first to the finish is the winner and where the top athletes are houshold names e.g. Thorpe, Phelps, Spitz, Biondi == Shumaker, Prost, Senna, McRae etc. then you have synchronised swimming that is a points based judged sport where the rules and the top athletes are mostly only known by close followers of the sport.

Of course if you don't like that idea there's always 'rhythmic gymnastics' (the one where they don't even need to be very athletic, just good at doing fancy tricks with high precision....)

Quote from Vain :

Some more sound analysis. This time taken under different conditions:
Car flipped to the roof, no wind, 7000 rpm. But I forgot to disengage the gear. The results are obvious enough anyway. I wrote the numbers of the firing cylinders and the names of the car.
Like a sine-wave, I told you. Interesting how especially the XRT felt dead boring to listen to. This is the reason why.

Vain

Not remotely like a sine wave - there is plenty of spectral content in there.
It would be interesing to see results of your comparisons after putting the wave files through a spectrum analyser - that would give a much more revealing picture of the frequency content.

Try your two car sound clips (and a sine wave just for fun :razz...

Hmmm - I don't like the new sound update... and I do...

Don't:
The final end result doesn't make me feel as good when driving as the U30 sounds.

Do:
The sound seems more fluid - it seems more like a real organic sound, just not like the sound a car makes .
Here's a guitar analogy...
It's like a nylon strung acoustic when it should be a Strat through a cranked Marshall stack. The old sound was like a synth though a cranked Peavey Bandit... At least now it sounds like a guitar.

Something I've been wondering for a long time (years) is if Scawen could implement some sort of Digital waveguide for the individual cylinder sounds (or for the engine as a whole), and for the exhaust. This would soak up some cpu for sure, but wouldn't need to be of the same quality level as for alias free synthesisers and the like...
I think this (possibly along with some psychoacoustic distortion - to fool the brain into thinking the sound is louder - think aural exiters as used in TV advertising) could make a huge difference to the percieved quality of the sound.
Scawen, have you been here before ?
Would it be possible to use simplified or low-fi waveguides without using way to much CPU? maybe a few for the car 'in focus' and 1 per car for other cars within earshot ?

Col

Quote from Dajmin :

Really nice idea. Love the site.

Problem is, some of the names ranked high are really unimaginiative. "Esses1" and "Esses2", "Pit Corner", "U-Turn" - please

On the other hand, some of them are really good. Although I notice that for the final U on SO Sprint 1, nobody has suggested the Jaknife Sorry Jack, nobody will ever let you live it down!

Yeah? except some of those - like esses(1) and esses(2) have been used since early demo days. If a corner already has an established name, you aren't going to change that with a vote and an announcement...
Like Blackwood T1, there's only one name for that turn and it is 'T1', because is always was - there was a time when that was the only LFS track... folks aren't going to suddenly start saying "you rammed me in Paramount... NOOB".. its always going to be 'T1'.

Problem is that too many folks don't know their history
....
Another thing I noticed, assuming it is the intention, Barnardos has 2 r's, So it would be kinda odd to call a turn Barnados - sounds like an island somewhere or something...

Is there also a charity called Barnados ?

(wouldn't surprise me, I remember in the UK during the general election for one seat, (can't remember where) the conservatives put in 2 candidates - one 'Conservative' and one 'literal democrat' - split the liberal democrat vote and the Conservative candidate won the seat.... because most folks don't read things properly - just happily give their vote or old clothes erroniously)

Col

Nice work - if we have to decide on names artificially, then this is as good a way as any...

One thing I've noticed is that some of the folks suggesting names are obviously not thinking about how these names will sound in usage.

The only point in having names for corners is so that its easier to discuss them... unfortunately too many suggestions are long multiword phrases...
think how your suggested name would sound in some possible sentences such as:

I lost the rear coming out of XXXX
wtf, you took me out just before the XXXX apex
If I get a good second sector, I always lose it in XXXX
XXXX gets me every time
you're losing time in XXXX and XXXX... try braking earlier for XXXX and dont mash the throttle so soon at the XXXX exit.

etc. etc.

Col

Hehe - talk about fishing for compliments.... lol

Oh NOOOOOO the great KeMoT is leaving, what am I gonna do now...

anyhow, see you when the next physics update is released

Either: the guy is too thick to be able to cope with reason, logic and evidence, and prefers to believe marketing..... And anyway, GT4 has loads of REAL CARS and loads of REAL TRACKS, so of course it is more realistic...
SimpleIdiotLogic® says that real tracks + real cars = realistic handling
and conversely that 'fake' cars and 'fake' tracks = 'fake' handling

Or: he has a low opinion of you and cannot concieve that something you like (but he doesn't) could possibly be better than something he likes (but you don't) in any way.

Or: he knows that LFS is more realistic, but he prefers the huge licenced content and more accessible (read: less skill required) gameplay of GT4. However, he knows that it is 'cool' to be more 'realistic', and he also knows that you are more attached emotionally to LFS that he is to GT4. So rather than admit the mildly embarassing truth, he has fun by winding you up all the time, pretending to believe that GT4 is more real than LFS... are you letting him get to you ?

so which is it? (should really be a poll hehe)

Quote from Ebolamonkey :

drifting can help you see a good racing line for grip.

yeah, as you drift wide round the turn, the extreme angle you are at lets you watch the 'grippers' steam past on the inside and see the lines they take

What I go for is a server with at least 3 or 4 people on it with a low ping and a car/track combo I'm competitive at.

I havn't raced much for quite a while. I find that each time more content was added, it became more difficult to find enjoyable races... just finding races with enough folks at about the same skill level can be tricky when there are so many combos.

Its a shame that people don't use the chat...
years ago when I played GPL there was an app called winVROC... everyone congregated there in the chat area and there was a list of servers showing which ones were mid race, and which ones were running qualifying for next race... with this setup, it was easier to get folks together for races.

I guess in LFS its fine if you are in a 'team' you know roughly when other members will be around, and what servers to check on, but for everyone else, it just makes it even harder to get good 'casual' racing enjoyment.

Quote from priestizzle :

You guys are forgetting where drifting started. On that like, Japanese mountain, street racing. They used it to cut the corners of the mountain without slowing down to a near stop. They raced, didnt count points and didnt try to ONLY overtake by drifitng. Thats racing in every sense of the word. I think someone will eventually come up with a concept for drift racing. For instance, on turn x x and x you MUST drift (Pass a certain angle relavant to the apex or something to be considered a drift) No extra points are awarded for a better drift then the other. But the point of the RACE is to finish first.

If one doesnt drift a turn you MUST drift maybe time deductions could be in order or something along those lines. Anyway, my two cents

You don't need a 'concept' or special rules. If you want 'drift racing', you have to devise race tracks or courses where the fastest way around the corners is to drift - so those who don't drift or drift badly will not have a chance of winning.... You'll probably want to have a fairly loose surface.... and maybe time the cars rather than have them all start together - to avoid the obvious T1 problems when everyone gets sideways together... Maybe you could use existing roads and tracks for this... snow/ice might be good as well... amazing no-ones already done this really

Quote from luftrofl :

This is a rather lame discussion. Nobody's convincing anybody else of their point and the argument is becoming more and more polarized.

I disagree (wellwhaddayaknow)

It is lame, but not because the arguement is polarised - it isn't.
polarised would be:
the drifters saying "drifting is great and requires great skill"
the racers saying "drifting is pants and is easy but pointless"

in reality,
The majority of drifters (who are posting) are saying:
"Why do you hate drifting? drifing is great, you just don't understand it" (some are saying drifting makes you faster?!)
The vast majority of non-drifters are saying roughly:
"I have nothing against drifting - I agree that it requires skill, but I don't want to do it as an end in itself - I'm here to race. What I don't like is the attitude of many (not all) 'drifters'."
you see, there is no argument. other than
A Why do you hate it?
B We don't
A But why do you hate it?, its so unfair
B But We don't hate it - really we don't
A I still don't understand why you hate it - you must be stupid...
B We don't hate it, and don't call us stupid...
etc.

yep - it's lame because only one half is arguing - the drifters.... and they are argueing against their false perception of what the non-drifters think...
The truth is that MOST FOLKS WHO DON'T DRIFT DO NOT HATE DRIFTING

If there is a problem its with the part of the drifting commumity that we are most likely to come into contact with - the irresponsible ones who drift in race servers, and love to get into pointless arguements based on false perceptions rather than listening to what people are really saying...

enough for now

Last edited by col, Sat 25 Nov 2006, 16:44. Reason : to clarify a point

Quote from Trogdor :

Tell her you will do the housework and cook dinner for a week.

Do the houswork for a week, then ask her !

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I don't snowboard, I don't skate, I don't wakeboard, I don't base jump, I don't do parkour. I think of drifting as being like those activities - things boys do to win the admiration of other boys.

Yeah, boys trying to convince everyone they're not geeks and nerds by getting all geeky and nerdy about fringe 'sports'

btw, you forgot street luge - Byker Sherlock RULEZ

Quote from Slidaaaa :

Scrw you people...
Can Drift be considered a Motorsport? YES

I agree

Quote :

Drift does NOT replaces grip (race) in any sense, and vice versa.

I agree

Quote :

Drift is a Race Technique? Depends, theres two type of Drift, one of them is,other is not.

I agree (assuming your distinction is between 4 wheel drift ( like in gpl ) and 'artistic drifting' style drift.
If you mean 'artistic drifting' and 'drift racing' then I LOL at you)

Quote :

The main diferences between the Drift that happens on the Racing and the one that is practiced as Sport are:

On the Drift as Sport, the Drift must start as early as possible before the corner, it usualy begins allready on the straightway,wich on the 'Race Drift' it rarely happens and usualy only happens on situations of very low or allmost no grip or in Rally(or in very very tight corners and only useful whit understeery cars other than proper race setup). The angle, wich on the 'race Drift' is used only the necessary to compensate the loss of grip or excess of speed (helping to brake the car) on the momentum the be able to tackle the corner the more direct and fastest way possible, wich on the 'Sporty Drift' the angle tends to be the highest possible for as long as possible.

In normal racing you drift when it is the quickest, or most efficient way through part of the track, or because you are doing an in fast out slow overtake/block manouver a la Senna in that AMAZING clip.
In drifting you drift because its the rules.

Quote :

Personaly i consider the art of Drift not just a technique that helps a little the capacity of controling a car out of its traction limits, but overall as way of self-express since its part of my style of driving, i feel naturaly very confortable and on syntony whit my car while drifting, i dont do it for showoff or wathever, i do it because it feels good, love to corner whit full throtle and enter it very fast and use the angle to brake(casualy, i dont drift while racing duh)

Good for you

Quote :

But i think most of other people see it as just an senseless controled slide, wich only takes to loss of time in Racing and they dont see any reason or fun on practicing it as Sport.

why do you think that, from what I've read, most folks - me included - think it's a difficult skill and when perfected can be entertaining to watch.

Quote :

What i mean is,It will depend a lot of the person's point of view. And if you dont like it, respect it.

You don't get respect by demanding it, you get respect be earning it.

Last edited by col, Tue 14 Nov 2006, 14:04. Reason : to clarify a point

'Drift racing' makes me think of race walking where 'athletes' (who are not good enough to compete in a running race) do a 'race' that has extra restrictions imposed upon it that depend on close monitoring of every competitor.... (and they wiggle their asses). Has anyone here seen race walking without thinking 'why?'

Drifting as a spectacle of skill and artistry, I can understand, a bit like rythmic gymnastics or synchronised swimming. Just don't pretend that it's racing.

Hey, I just broke the 60m world record for hopping backwards with one eye closed while shouting 'spank me sideways I'm a drifter' at an angle of at least 45º - I pwned you all.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

..
Generalizations save time ONLY when talking to stupid people.

well, I guess Generalizations are an ideal choice when talking to you z3e0c00l.

Anyone with such a ****ing stupid and downright dangerous statement as this in their sig doesn't deserve anything else:

Quote :

If you think I'm too close behind you on a UK road it is because I'm lining up for an overtake, and I'm not too close because at the speed we're both doing, that distance is my reaction/action time, and my brakes and tyres are better than yours, and I can use them to their full potential.

what a load of Bull Shit. I only hope it's you that dies, not the poor innocent folks that you crash into.

Col

Last edited by col, Sat 11 Nov 2006, 13:51. Reason : To apologise for posting OT in this thread - just felt it had to be said

Quote from knightjade :

i would never bump any becuse its just not right even if he is slower.

any way i had some one last night when i was racing he was in my slipstream on the big BL1 straight but he keeped bumping in to the back of me and would not overtake i was getting anoyed and when we just about to go in to the corner at the end of the straight i go the turn and it knocks me of the track as well as him coming off to and then blames me for it as it was my fault but i cant see how it was me.

Thats called bump drafting, and is a legitimate technique, helps both drivers to faster times, and is a good way to catch a runaway leader, however there are enough LFS drivers who kick up a stink about it that it's probably best avoided except with friends..... And then of course there are accusations of cheating if you do it with team mates... can't win...
The big problem with bump drafting is that if the guy behind gets it wrong it takes them both out, and there are too many eager but unskilled drivers out there... I used to bump draft all the time on the blackwood back straight, and had very few 'incidents', then the anti bump drafting lobby appeared and spoiled my fun illepall

Quote from frokki :

..
BTW this is one example of ""forcing"" someone to grass without being in fault. You can ignore the texts, the public (some stcc drivers and clerks) already kinda voted that the blue car wasn't in fault of white's crash.

_Looks_ to me like a clear case of the white car being run into the barrier by the blue car. Obviously approaching the turn where the incident happened, the white car has more than 50% overlap and is on the inside - so the blue car should yield the apex, but doesn't. Looking closely you can see that both cars are pointing at the apex, suggesting that the blue car could take a wider line if it wanted. I am surprised that any 'officials' would see this as a 50/50 'racing incident'
(Of course, I would want to see a proper replay before condeming anyone)

Quote from DejaVu :

get the new caterham mod for rFactor, and set the car up properly. That is where the fun is at

People will always prefer one over the other, it's the same with everything

My e-penis is bigger than all of yours anyway so i win

But my e-daddy is bigger than yours, and he has a e-axe and will chop your e-penis right off... so there !! HA

Anyway, I would much rather not have enough time to play a great sim like Live For Speed, than not have enough time to try out a game like rFactor in order to make a fair comparison and come to the honest conclusion that LFS is obviously the best!

cheers, Col