/me votes 'ay'

Top suggestion

(it's a "[/me slaps head] why have I not thought of and posted this one years ago" kind of suggestion)

A chequered flag is definitely important - it is such an iconic part of motor racing that not to have one in LFS does seem like a major oversight.

I'd love to see it being waved at track side, but having it appear the way blue flags do would still be a great improvement.

Last edited by col, Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:29.

Quote from welshys90 :

awrite groovy, i take it theres no release date for S3 then? no?

It's even possible that there won't be an S3 ! :-o
Originally, there were supposed to be 4 parts, then that was reduced to 3 as the development of LFS matured... It may be that S2 takes a lot longer to finalize and ends up having more features than was initially intended, maybe it won't get the positive reception and acclaim required to motivate the team for S3... then Scawen might decide to ditch the project - bugs and all - and work on a motorbike simulator 'in his spare time' lol

Highly unlikely, but you never know for sure

Whatever happens, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain by buying S2 now - you get the fun of all that extra content and the superior quality of S2 racers plus your S2 license is like a token towards the cost of S3 (assuming we get that far)

Col

Quote from mrodgers :

Again, Aunt Hilda gave her old computer because she bought a new one, and parents pay for the internet. I'm a bit confused as to how this is such a difficult concept to understand that just because you have something, doesn't mean you are the one who has paid for it. I had a hand-me-down computer and *FREE* internet for years. In fact, I paid for my first computer in 1995, then went through 8 other machines before purchasing my current one in 2005.

I've heard that argument from you lots of times.
Maybe in the US, folks are giving away 'old' PCs that are powerful enough to run LFS, but I've still to see it happen here in the UK, and I imagine in many other countries it's the same. Basically, most folks 'Aunt Hilda' will only ditch their old PC when it either breaks, it can't run the new version of Word for Dimbos, or their ISP says its too old to run their broadband install disk... any PC in that situation is unlikely to be much use for LFS... like I said, maybe in the US things are different ?

With that in mind it is unlikely that many of the "I can't afford a license" demo racers are really truthfully running LFS on hand-me-down PCs!

EDIT: If on the other hand they really do have an aunt Hilda who is wealthy or stupid enough to buy a new PC every couple of years just 'because', then she's certainly wealthy or stupid enough to be tapped for the price of an S2 licence.

See now? there's no excuse which ever way you look at it

Col

Last edited by col, Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:50.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Guys, there is no 45° look restriction. You have to press both look keys to look 90° now, that is all. The only thing that got removed was looking back 180° which was very unrealistic in any case.

I know that. As I explained, the problem is that what in real life is a slight movement of the head to get a peripheral view, and in old LFS was just one button click now takes twice as much work and requires one click on the opposite side you want to look, so is awkward, error prone and counter-intuitive. I'm sure that for some folks it's easy and for some others, 45º feels more real, I guess that for many racers it's irrelevant because many never use look buttons at all (at least in my experience ), but for me and plenty of others, this new feature makes virtual racing more 'dangerous' and I for one cannot see a good reason why it shouldn't be optional.

I used the look buttons as a replacement for peripheral vision, now it's too cumbersome, so watch out if you're beside me on track until we get a more flexible look system (not a threat, just a heads up) - simple as that.

Col

At first I though it was weird, but after a while I started to realize what was causing the clutch overheating (at least for me). It was not during normal clean racing, I think it was happening during pileups and spins. My traditional LFS way of dealing with a spin was to mash or feather the throttle just to keep everything moving until I was facing in the right direction. I guess that in the new patch, if you mash the gas in a forward gear while you are traveling backwards or while you are pushing against a wall or other cars, you will slip the clutch. It seems to me that this driver behaviour is unrealistic so folks dont see overheated clutches in real life racing as much, but it's common in LFS - I suppose that if we all treat these situations as though it were a real car, we would hit the clutch as soon as there was a 'moment' and release it once facing in the correct direction... ?
I guess there will be lots of special cases and details, but I reckon this new feature will just teach us more realistic ways of dealing with our clutch during 'racing incidents'.

Col

Quote from mrodgers :

...I don't like it as of now because I mainly want to look at my 90 degree side to see someone overtaking. I don't like needing to hit both left/right buttons to view the 90 degrees...

Totally agree, before this update, I could intuitively 'see' around and be aware even during pressure situations, now that we have to press two buttons, one of which is the opposite of the 'look' direction, I just cannot do it. Also, I don't have enough buttons on my wheel to have a separate look behind - I used to use the left/right combinations to look over my shoulders.

Please make the 45º look optional.

-----------------------------------------

One other little thing that was bugging me last night while driving the FBM:
I drive in cockpit view with wheel graphic and drivers arms switched
off. In this mode, there is a little switch in the middle of the dash that is really bugging me. When I'm watching the road and not looking directly at thew dash, I keep thinking it's the mouse pointer - this is breaking the immersion and my concentration... maybe I will get used to it.

------------------------------------------

The AI are still stupid
when you set up a race with some FBMs, XFG & XRG, when the FBMs catch the slower cars to lap them, if they catch up at a slower section of track, they follow the car in front close and can get 'stuck' behind even though there are easy opportunities to get past. Makes them look daft, and also would spoil a race.

--------------------------------------------

I also want to add my vote to limiting the setup options to be more realistic.


Anyhow, great patch

thanks

Col

After reading some discussion about chase view in one of the threads about the new BMW, I had a brainwave !

IMO chase view is a fantasy feature - completely unrealistic. However, some people like to use it.
(And why shouldn't they? after all, IMO it is a disadvantage over cockpit or wheels view.)

So, why not make it more 'realistic' !

Everyone using chase view should have their driver 'avatar' floating in the air above the car in the 'correct' position for their view. (with a big H on the forehead like Rimmer from Red Dwarf !)

The discrepancy in weight of the car could be 'offset' by the star trek style particle projector in said car being roughly the same weight as a human.

Of course, this isn't serious suggestion - it wouldn't make sense to waste dev time on it, but it would add a little credibility to chase view... ok, so its sci-fi, but it would at least turn chase into a coherent part of the game world...

Col

Quote from geeman1 :

It is already in.

Only partly.

Drafting in LFS reduces drag for the rear car, but unfortunately the front car doesn't get any reduction. This is a significant limitation in terms of using 'realistic' drafting techniques/tactics (at least with the tin-tops).

AI improvements (even the old hermit who lives in the black wood knows thats going to happen)

New pitstops ! the AI will have to pit, Scawen won't want to work on the AI again for a long while (think of all those poor suckers who have spent hours training them only for them to be reset every time there is an update!), so he will want the pitting system to be fully up to date - future changes would mean more work on AI

Improvements to existing tracks and cars lots of stuff has probably been done by Eric (assuming hes not just working on S3 content) that has been waiting for an incompatible patch... gfx, some layout tweaks, South City... interiors. There are also likely to be changes to some cars to improve class balancing...

Tyre physics big improvements ? probably not. lots of small tweaks to hone the existing system ? very likely.

Improved Aero hmm maybe but who knows

More extensive damage modelling quite likely I think - again down to AI - if stuff like aero damage is introduced at a later date, then AI would not know how to handle it forcing another AI re-write. I suppose Scawen could give AI knowledge of future stuff that isn't in the game yet, but to do so he would have to have a pretty good idea of how it would function and how he would implement it... maybe he will just have a scriptable AI that can be easily updated to handle new features?

Chassis flex modeling Scawen adds chassis flex modeling to the physics and gives us a go-kart for Christmas - unlikely, but it would be a very nice Christmas surprise

Quote from Aiden McGeady :

For avoiding collisions, you only really need to remember a few things:

1 - The driver in front has the right to take whichever line he (or she) wishes to take, and the driver behind is responsible for avoiding a collision, that means he also needs to account for early braking on the part of the driver who is in front of him.

2 - When overtaking in a turn, the driver in front needs to be aware of the other driver's intentions, and the right of way will be determined by significant overlap. A driver has overlap when the front of his car is in front of the other driver's HEAD, not his front bumper. If that condition is met, the driver being overtaken must then lift off ever so slightly, just so he can get out of the corner right behind the other car and remain battling normally.

....
Sounds like too much to keep in mind, but they're really simple rules that could be summed up in one or two lines.

As defined by you, these are not 'simple rules', they are in fact ambiguous and open to creative interpretation.... unfortunately, it is impossible to have a set of rules for cornering rights that are simple and completely comprehensive - in fact, you would probably need addenda for many individual corners, car types and driving styles!

The biggest problem is that of deciding if the overtaking driver has fair overlap and therefor rights to the apex. The rules you give about front bumper being level with head are fine and dandy if you are overtaking on a straight, but as soon as you are in a corner, they are woefully inadequate!

Two cars turning in, their relative angles changing... the overtaking car could pull a broad side 'drift' to scrub off speed, suddenly from his POV, he is level with the other car - when he looks to his mirror it is now beside him rather than ahead ! In this case, I would say that there still is not 'fair' overlap (many 'bargers' think they are in the right because of this effect, and their claim is valid within your set of 'simple' rules).
What if the guy in front takes a deep line into the corner each lap, but the guy behind uses a tighter corner entry due to a different setup and driving style? It's possible that the guy behind starts turning with or before the lead car, and by the time the lead car starts to turn in, again, the overlap changes in a 'false' way, as the cars rotate, the perceived overlap changes... in this second case, it is much more difficult to state for sure which driver has the corner at any particular time - you need detailed guidelines, and ultimately an experienced adjudicator who can make a judgment based on experience, and also watching replays of the whole incident from different angles.

If you want a simple guideline then something like this is less open to interpretation and abuse:
"if the overtaking car does not have fair overlap (as defined above) before either car begins to turn in at a corner, then any incident involving a collision between the two cars is his responsibility!"

Even this would still require some flexibility in interpretation - it assumes that both drivers are competent and of comparable skill levels, there is no mechanical or 'virtual' failure and that the leading driver doesn't attempt to use the rule to his advantage by intentionally driving in an unpredictable manner or 'brake testing' the overtaking driver...

basically as soon as you try to apply any 'simple' rule to a real situation, you discover that you needed a much more complex rule in the first place

Col

Quote from rainspecialist :

any 1 no any endurance racing besides silly project cause its always empty and i think 5 lap races are dumb

3 and 5 lap races are about right for beginners and those wanting a taste of what LFS has to offer - which is exactly what the demo is for!

Buy an S2 license and you will find a wide range of options, different race lengths, leagues to join... etc. etc. etc.

Quote from GT Touring :

my only problem with drifting is how it is taking up so many servers...

Drifting is not 'taking up' those servers, most of them were set up for drifting - it's not like they would be available to you for racing if drifting were somehow banned from LFS.

If you want racing servers and there aren't enough, why not set up your own ?
Then publicize it so that you get some folks on there to race with. (Being the Admin, you will have the power to ban as many drifters as you like, so it's a win/win if you are anti-drift )

Col

Quote from JasonJ :

[they] have their own custom file format for 3D models just so no-one can't edit the tracks/cars.

hehe, sounds like a conspiracy to me

In reality, they probably use custom formats for their car/track/object models because the models contain information used by physics/collision as well as just graphical data.
Because this extra info is complex and unique, and also crucial to the game, they need to build custom tools to generate/create it.

Nobody knows for sure if the tools are built from scratch(afaik?) - they might be... it's also possible that Scawen has developed custom plugins for one of the many 3d editors available.... maybe for 3D studio Max, or for Blender...

Personally I hope they are either scratch built, or plugins for a free or cheap existing editor - I wouldn't want (or be able) to fork out thousands for a top level 3D app just to dabble with LFS car models ... assuming that the tools are released after S3

Quote from JeffR :

To summarize, drifting is to motor sports as ice dancing is to winter sports?

hehe

and as race walking is to athletics
and as synchronized swimming is to aquatic sports...
and dressage to Equestrian sports

Unfortunately, no matter how accurate these analogies are, they seem to be somewhat unpopular amongst the drift fraternity... I wonder why ...

Quote from kurent :

If you saved the replay, open it and press CTRL+SHIFT and his real S2 licence username will appear in the connection list. It doesn't work when you are in the demo server, but it does work when watching the replay. Of course only if he is dumb enough to connect to a demo server with his unlocked LFS install.

Didn't know that trick
If that works, it should be easy enough to add any S2 licensed demo wreckers to the barricade ?

Last edited by col, Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:57.

Quote from Toddshooter :

WOW can you say HOMOPHOBE three times fast?

hehe, he uses 'gay' so often... maybe his subconscious is trying to tell us something ?
You been keeping a secret thisnameistaken ?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It's Kilonanomillis.

its kraftiNewtonmorons per sandwich

Quote from danowat :

Whatever mate, not sure what your problem is, but I can't be bothered to try and explain it to someone who is intent on making everything I say look worthless and contridictory.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Apples > Oranges

Quote from danowat :

In YOUR opinion maybe, but in mine it's completely different.

I can ride around Snetterton for real untill the cows come home, infact when I am doing it for real, I don't even see the surroundings.

In a computer game/sim, it's very different, you lose a HELL of a lot of the visceral feedback you get IRL, which is why it's nice to have a change of scenery to break up the monotany.

You just can't compare real life to a sim, it's completely different.

First you stated that you cannot compare the two.
Then you compared them (the red and the blue section - the tell-tale phrase is in large bold letters).
Then you again stated that they cannot be compared...

My head is now officially spinning :biggrinfl

Quote from danowat :

TBH, you can't really compare the two.

What a ridiculous thing to say - of course you can compare them.

Quote from danowat :

I don't agree with that statement.

There are a number of people in the community that could make a very positive input to the development of LFS, Electik Kar springs to mind, and I am sure the input from a selected number of people would help speed up the addition of new features in LFS.

It's a nice idea, but extremely naive to believe that it would suddenly speed up the development process.

There are two ways the team could be expanded:
#1 Bringing in extra payed team members
#2 Bringing in Volunteers

Each of those options comes with a whole raft of potential issues and pitfalls.

There are very good reasons why the team is small - no point in going into the details - these have been explained so many times in the past, if you haven't understood by now, you never will!

(I think they chose a racing sim partly because it was possible to do with a small team... It's not a coincidence that there are other high quality racing sim projects being developed by very small teams !)

And besides, even if they did decide to expand the team, I think it is likely that they would look for someone they know from their wider network of game development contacts.

Quote from sidi :

Quote from mrodgers :

It's not the tracks that make the racing, it's the physics and the people you race with. That makes the experience,

I agree.

I also agree.

Col

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Humbug. By the same logic, who cares of your car skyrockets to the moon because of collision detection? It's just a detail, and you should be working out which idiot caused the wreck to notice that your car is 500 feet into the sky.

Thats pretty much right - IMO who cares about skyrocketing - it honestly doesn't bother me enough to be a priority. However, I would like to see the collision detection improved, but what I'm more interested in is that more realistic collision detection would allow the cars to be more fragile - so damage could be more realistic... as things are, the cars are artificially tough - partly because they have to be to deal with some of the effects of the collision detection. (of course, reducing skyrocketing might be a side effect of doing this - which is fine by me)

Quote :

No, it's not a weak argument at all. More scenery is nice, and would be nice, AS7 is a totally different drive than AS3 for example. Totally different experience and rhythm. I see Ian's point on a couple things like ASGP and ASHIS... two turns different, who cares. But for the most part the layouts are quite varied IMO.

I'd like to see 'road scenery' before 'trackside scenery'
Watching in-car vids of real races, one of the most obvious differences is the huge variety of road markings and texture changes. If this was improved in LFS, it would add to visual realism near where you actually look while racing - and it would have a huge impact on the sensation of speed particularly on the wide fast tracks.

Some other stuff I think is important... things like chassis flex, play in the drive chain and engine mountings, better aero, more advanced sound generation, loads of stuff really...

Thing is, Having it all right now wouldn't make a huge difference to my LFS experience - it would be nice, but I'm happy to wait until it's all ready and implemented to the standard we have grown accustomed to

cheers

Col