Quote from Racon :

Look-up tables don't care what model you use to do the pre-calculations

Look-up-table(LUT) based systems are notoriously crap at covering the complete range of situations. They're great for a simulation where expected behaviour stays away from the physical limits of the system being modeled, each variable staying within a small range of stable fairly linear values, e.g. simulating a passenger jet in a flight sim where you don't go even close to stalling etc.
A racing sim is the worst possible for LUTs, a driver spends the whole time as close to the physical limits of the system as possible - for this to work well with a thorough LUT system without fudging, you would need astronomical amounts of data. That's why LUT based systems have unnatural feel during physical state transitions. LFS may not always seem 'realistic', but it always feels organic, 'natural' and predictable.
Scawen wants more realism without losing the natural feel. Can't do that with LUTs

Quote from Macfox :

When their was regular engagement (from the beginning) with the community, it was positive. Plenty of positive feedback and constructive criticism....

That is true - but only for the early days. As the game became more popular over time, things changed, reception of new updates became less and less about constructive criticism and more and more just complaints and rudeness. It was only _after_ the community response turned sour in this way that the devs cut back on their interaction and stopped posting their hopes and plans, regular development reports etc.

Quote from ImudilaSkyline :

But they need to deal with it

They did deal with it.

They stopped posting information about what they are working on, except very general info occasionally. Seems like a pretty good way of dealing with it to me ?

If they had kept going like in the early days, they would have a very difficult choice: either Just ignore all the negative feedback, leaving a forum full of criticisms of their game - really bad idea... or take time out of development to answer all the idiots (over and over again) - another really bad idea.

Now, people just criticize them and their development approach. Which is much safer to ignore.

After so many years of their current approach, it is still working for them, so why would they change?

There are three cars I've desired way more than any others, can't choose between them, and they're all 'in real life'

Has anyone tried ordering the grid based on slowest lap:
Take each drivers slowest lap from the previous race (excluding lap 1), and fastest slowest lap gets pole...

or consistency:
whoever has the smallest spread of times between their fastest and slowest laps goes first...

or improvement:
whoever does best in relation to their own PB(on the server?) gets pole.

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

there is no crime if there is no punishment

wtf?

Quote from kimd41 :

I think we all agree the devs have chosen the wrong business model as of doing everything secretly.

What makes you think you can speak for "we all" ?

The business model the devs chose resulted in LFS. That's good enough for me, definitely the correct business model.
If you know a better approach to developing a simulator, why not use it to make a better simulator, then everyone will buy your game and play it instead. Good luck though. Since LFS came out, no alternative business model has produced a sim better than LFS.

As far as doing everything secretly - if you'd been around since the beginning of LFS, you would know that the devs used to be open about their work, but over and over again, they were attacked by elements of the community and eventually they decided that silence was the best policy. I don't blame them at all for that.

1. Who will win drivers' world championship: Button
2. Which team will win constructors' world championship: Red Bull
3. Who will score more points in 2013. Bottas or Maldonado: Maldonado
4. What is the best race finishing result for Adrian Sutil in 2013: 7th
5. Do you think Sergio Perez will win at least one race in 2013: Yes
6. Who will score more points in 2013. Hamilton or Rosberg: Hamilton
7. First driver you think will lose his drive during 2013 (miss at least one race): VDG
8. Will Caterham or Marussia score points in 2013: Yes
9. Do you think Massa will win at least one race in 2013? No
10. Does Kubica drive F1 car before the last race? No
11: Winner of Australian gp: Perez
12. Winner of Monaco gp: Hamilton
13. How many points will the dwc winning driver have at the end of the season: 290

I mostly play my Classic Player 60's Strat through various homebrew and vintage fx and a nice little vibro champ

Also waiting patiently for Cave Story and Zelda Oracle of ages/seasons to be released on the EU 3DS eStore

Otherwise I spend many hours messing around building virtual toys with Native Instruments Reaktor

Quote from BlueFlame :

Then explain why he keeps karting?

Real champions give it up long before they look stupid.

Whatever MSC does IS what real champions do... If he took up extreme ironing in stilettos and a pink wig, that would be what real champions do.

Looks like a great piece of kit... perfect for sim racing

as far as FPS controls, maybe what would work (after getting used to it) would be using keyboard for forward back, rotate left & right, and strafing, mouse for aiming cross-hair and VR headset for aiming camera relative to body position....

The cross-hair would be positioned by the mouse relative to the direction the body is facing, not the head. You could have a key/button that immediately (with customizable smoothing like 'look' buttons in LFS) aligns the body position and cross-hair with the VR aim, so that you can lock onto things quickly...

I think something along these lines would become intuitive very quickly.

(aside from a new PC, a new Wheel, and a time machine to return to the CTRA's hayday), the thing that would do it for me would be improved engine sounds. Not a switch to samples, but an updated version of the existing approach with improved acoustic physical modelling of the engine and exhaust systems.

Quote from bbman :

A "grip driver" is one who grips the wheel so hard his knuckles turned white permanently. Consequently, he goes through wheels in no time at all, while cursing the build quality of the apparently incapable manufacturers.

"Grip racing" on the other hand has nothing to do with motorsport. People lie down on the ground and can only use their hands and arms to propel them forward, the rest of their body has to be completely still. Even this sport has had its weirdos (three years ago, the Australian competitors raced lying on their back) and its share of scandals (one American competitor was found out to have cheated for years with performance-enhancing clothes)...

ah thanks, I had also wondered about what a 'grip driver' was.

why do I like racing so much?

hmm... I guess because racing gives me a way to zone out and mentally escape the horrific reality of a world where I know drifting does still occasionally happen and in some places is even actively promoted.

Ibanez series 9 battery cover.
For my original PT-9 Phaser

Thanks for the info guys.

My son is getting really into LFS recently, and wants to try out various skins.
I have seen quite a few arguments over the years where people get extremely angry because someone is using there skin. The reactions are often completely out of proportion to the perceived crime, and sometimes hypocritical, e.g. a skin author builds a skin from existing commercial logos and artwork that he doesn't have permission to use, then accuses others of stealing his work!
I really want to avoid my son becoming involved in this sort of pointless bickering - it can get really nasty.

Are the skins uploaded in the Finished Skins automatically free to use by anyone (without modification of course)?
Are they assumed to be 'private'?
Or is is purely down to the individual author?

Can we assume that if the author doesn't request for them not to be used, then we can freely use them without being accused of theft?

We've been using Beano's excellent site, are there any good places to download free to use skins?

cheers,

Col

Quote from töki (hun) :

rofl

Read this while lurking on rec.autos.simulators back in 2002 looking for news on World Sports Car/Racing Legends. Immediately downloaded the demo, and pretty soon lost interest in the whole West Racing saga

Brings back memories...
Like the LFS section on the racesimcentral forum, before LFS had it's own forum.
Everyone was a 'demo racer'.
There was no cruise scene, and no 'teams'
Because there were only 3 cars and 1 track, you quickly got to know everyone who raced at the times you did.
Great days

Last edited by col, Sat, 24 Nov 2012 22:29.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

...If you'd come up with a title more open to some real discussion, perhaps the story would be different.

exactly...
"Do you guys hate drifting?" might have been more sensible

or maybe a poll would have been fun e.g.

please choose one option from the following:

1 I hate drifting
2 I love drifting
3 I'm indifferent towards drifting
4 I like drifting and drifters, it's just FlyingBus I hate.
5 I like pie, and drifting is fine as long as I can have some pie
6 I feel sorry for people who have an irrational persecution complex
7 I pretend to hate drifting because of what people might say if they knew the truth.
8 I enjoy a good hard race.

Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
'Cause I know what it means
to walk along the lonely street of dreams

Quote from Jertje :

There is legislation within the EU which protects your rights in these cases.

Can you point me to that legislation please, so I can have a look at it.

Quote :

If you broke their user agreement - who are you to ask questions?

That's a fair point. The real issue though is what happens when you didn't break their user agreement, but they _think_ you did, what happens then?

Quote :

you're a paying customer. Banning a guy who spends hundreds of euros on games for frivoloties is hardly a solid business plan.

Banning a small percentage of users unfairly won't have an impact on their business, particularly if they are a huge company with a near Monopoly, and legislation is weak, or unclear. Unless the users work together to defend each other. That won't happen if the majority who haven't been unfairly treated just says "well, it works fine for me and they seem like nice people". Large corporations feed on this sort of apathy.

Quote :

These guys are not the spawn of Satan or anything. They sell games and offer customer service to retain those customers.

Unfortunately, companies run by great guys sometimes get bought buy the spawn of Satan, then everything goes to hell in a hand basket.

Quote :

You might ask the same question in a different context: what if your house burns down and you lose your entire library of games?

I can do all sorts of things to minimise the risk of fire in my house, I can also take out insurance. I can't DO anything to minimise risks associated with a digital distribution system like Steam... other than choose not to use it, which is what I do.

Quote from Matrixi :

Stop living like it's 2004. Steam has moved on since then, you should too...
...Yeah, I can't see any benefits at all with Steam compared to using a standalone disc.

I have a question for you:

What if you have many hundreds of pounds/dollars worth of games on steam, and then due to an error on their part, steam decides you have broken the user agreement and stops your account.
Is there a fair appeals system using third party arbitration backed up by law that protects you rights as a consumer, or is it just up to steam whether to re-instate you?
(Remember, if there is no legislation in your country to protect you, you could lose ALL your games that you paid hard earned money for.)

It's an honest question, who/what defends your consumer rights if there is problem with your steam account?

Quote from Draconious :

... may also generate enough extra funds for them to HIRE more devs.

They don't want to hire more Devs, it's against the philosophy behind LFS.
read paragraph 2 of this post for explanation from Scawen.