I personaly am trying to avoid benq monitors, my moms work bought about 7 of them for there teller stations. After she told me I said "give it two months and more than half of them will be dead" And low and behold, two months later 5 out of 7 where in the garbage.
On top of that, I got a 20 inch benq CRT and within a couple of weeks, it died.
Not trying to scare anyone out of buying one, but I'd be very inclined to get an extended waranty on it.
On top of that, I got a 20 inch benq CRT and within a couple of weeks, it died.
Not trying to scare anyone out of buying one, but I'd be very inclined to get an extended waranty on it.
As long as you don't pull the clutch out during braking, you don't have to worry about swaping ends, I am actualy learning to heel-toe. But it isn't something I'm comfortable with, I prefer to just keep the clutch in and rev match at the end of the braking zone.
Without heel-toe, you basicaly just clutch out once at the end.
You don't have to put the car in nutral, thats just something I got from my dad. who aparantly used to do that for double clutching.
Clutch in, shifter to nutral, clutch out, finnish braking, blip and clutch in, shift to gear, clutch out.
Thats how I can do it with combined pedals. Otherwhise it's no bliping at all, which as you said would cause the car to swap ends.
I'd say, on a powerful car, LFS probably won't be as true to real life as other games. I don't know, since the most powerful car I have is the FBM. But I find even the FBM to be a little too shy when it comes to downshifts, its to forgiving. I'd realy like it if missing a blip would actualy upset the car enough to cause a control loss.
Then again, it could be my setup, I generaly like to keep a good solid rear end, even if it means loosing a little time. I find other people tend to loosen the rear up to much in there setups.
Without heel-toe, you basicaly just clutch out once at the end.
You don't have to put the car in nutral, thats just something I got from my dad. who aparantly used to do that for double clutching.
Clutch in, shifter to nutral, clutch out, finnish braking, blip and clutch in, shift to gear, clutch out.
Thats how I can do it with combined pedals. Otherwhise it's no bliping at all, which as you said would cause the car to swap ends.
I'd say, on a powerful car, LFS probably won't be as true to real life as other games. I don't know, since the most powerful car I have is the FBM. But I find even the FBM to be a little too shy when it comes to downshifts, its to forgiving. I'd realy like it if missing a blip would actualy upset the car enough to cause a control loss.
Then again, it could be my setup, I generaly like to keep a good solid rear end, even if it means loosing a little time. I find other people tend to loosen the rear up to much in there setups.
Last edited by DragonCommando, .
You actualy never responded about the lap time question, so it still stands, what do you get in the FBM on blackwood? and do you have a replay?
On the note of failing my driving test if I took one in the UK, I realy don't think heel-toe is going to be looked at highly either. Heel-toe has more of a chance of upseting the car if you screw it up.
Like I said, Heel-toe prevents the balance of the car from going forward during downshifting, but if you only downshift once, you don't have to risk upsetting the car several times, it can only happen once. If it happens at all.
I've never spun a car because of shifting this way, infact, I find the car to be more stable because all of the forces are never effected by the downshift.
Any other balancing is done with the brake pedal, as you will see is the case with race car drivers anyway. The differece is, I don't have to worry about downshifting throwing the balance out.
And If I need to put the power back on, its just as fast. All I have to do is hit the accelerator, put the car in gear and pull the clutch out.
It would be the same thing with heel-toe, because chances are you are going to be just getting ready to downshift when something goes wrong, and in order to prevent an accident, you'd have to downshift anyway.
On the note of failing my driving test if I took one in the UK, I realy don't think heel-toe is going to be looked at highly either. Heel-toe has more of a chance of upseting the car if you screw it up.
Like I said, Heel-toe prevents the balance of the car from going forward during downshifting, but if you only downshift once, you don't have to risk upsetting the car several times, it can only happen once. If it happens at all.
I've never spun a car because of shifting this way, infact, I find the car to be more stable because all of the forces are never effected by the downshift.
Any other balancing is done with the brake pedal, as you will see is the case with race car drivers anyway. The differece is, I don't have to worry about downshifting throwing the balance out.
And If I need to put the power back on, its just as fast. All I have to do is hit the accelerator, put the car in gear and pull the clutch out.
It would be the same thing with heel-toe, because chances are you are going to be just getting ready to downshift when something goes wrong, and in order to prevent an accident, you'd have to downshift anyway.
Um, no.
I've just posted something that states it's not used for engine braking.
Also, if you shift once at the end of braking, or nutral while you are braking, it's basicaly the same thing, because you arn't in a gear untill the end, just with nutraling, it takes one less step out of it at the end.
The reason you use heel-toe is to sequentialy downshift and keep the car balanced, but you don't have to sequentialy downshift.
IF the car has an H-pattern, I was always told this "The whole point to having an H-pattern is to shift to the gear YOU want to be in, instead of shifting through all of them".
I've said it several times, and other people have said it, its down to preference. The only reason I'm arguing it is because people go ape shit if you tell them there is another way that they've never hear of.
The automatic responce is to attack it and say its slower or not as good.
I've just posted something that states it's not used for engine braking.
Also, if you shift once at the end of braking, or nutral while you are braking, it's basicaly the same thing, because you arn't in a gear untill the end, just with nutraling, it takes one less step out of it at the end.
The reason you use heel-toe is to sequentialy downshift and keep the car balanced, but you don't have to sequentialy downshift.
IF the car has an H-pattern, I was always told this "The whole point to having an H-pattern is to shift to the gear YOU want to be in, instead of shifting through all of them".
I've said it several times, and other people have said it, its down to preference. The only reason I'm arguing it is because people go ape shit if you tell them there is another way that they've never hear of.
The automatic responce is to attack it and say its slower or not as good.
Last edited by DragonCommando, .
I've always been taught, and read about this as well. You should try to use engine braking for short braking zones, where you'd only have to gear down once otherwhise. This way you arn't on the brakes every turn. Other than that, the brakes are there to slow you down.
Alot of people are taking what they learned in LFS and thinking it applys to real cars, but if you asked a race car driver, they'd tell you that the only reason to use heel-toe is to balance the car, it's not to use engine braking.
Engine braking, or in this case compression braking in particular is created when the throttle is closed, because the vacume in the intake is great enough to slow down the engine. What you are actualy getting is negative compression, you get a vacume in the pistons.
The only way to control engine braking is to modulate the throttle, and if you watch a race car driver, all they do is blip, there is no modulation. Also, if you watch a race car driver downshift, they downshift and blip so quickly, there isn't time for engine braking to do anything major.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v= ... ZK-Bk&feature=related
Just watch this video, and consider this.
Unless the engine braking was strong enough than all of the weight of the car is going to be on the brakes because engine braking isn't going to be that strong in higher gears (3rd and up)
So the braking force used to slow down the car is infact going to be greater than the engine braking force, meaning it negates it almost completley.
Downshifting on fast turns without applying the brake alows you to modulate the throttle to control the engine braking, which in turn alows you to control the deceleration of the car.
Your not talking to a know it all, your talking to someone who has educated themselves on many different techniques.
More evidence that downshifting isn't for engine braking.
This is an SCCA driver saying it to.
Quoted from an E-mail someone posted on a site I was looking at.
Alot of people are taking what they learned in LFS and thinking it applys to real cars, but if you asked a race car driver, they'd tell you that the only reason to use heel-toe is to balance the car, it's not to use engine braking.
Engine braking, or in this case compression braking in particular is created when the throttle is closed, because the vacume in the intake is great enough to slow down the engine. What you are actualy getting is negative compression, you get a vacume in the pistons.
The only way to control engine braking is to modulate the throttle, and if you watch a race car driver, all they do is blip, there is no modulation. Also, if you watch a race car driver downshift, they downshift and blip so quickly, there isn't time for engine braking to do anything major.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v= ... ZK-Bk&feature=related
Just watch this video, and consider this.
Unless the engine braking was strong enough than all of the weight of the car is going to be on the brakes because engine braking isn't going to be that strong in higher gears (3rd and up)
So the braking force used to slow down the car is infact going to be greater than the engine braking force, meaning it negates it almost completley.
Downshifting on fast turns without applying the brake alows you to modulate the throttle to control the engine braking, which in turn alows you to control the deceleration of the car.
Your not talking to a know it all, your talking to someone who has educated themselves on many different techniques.
More evidence that downshifting isn't for engine braking.
This is an SCCA driver saying it to.
Quoted from an E-mail someone posted on a site I was looking at.
Last edited by DragonCommando, .
I don't think you understand that I'm looking at it not as a driver, but as the physics of it.
Heel-toe is a modern technique, I won't despute that. I won't despute that it works either. I never have.
What I am saying is that its not the ONLY way to shift, and it's not the fastest either. You can be just as fast without it, on a properly set up car.
Also, On the note of brakes, If you can't lock cold brakes, and I'll say this again. What happens when they get hot?
Thats easy to figure out. You will loose the ability to threshhold brake, and no amount of engine braking is going to compensate for that, because engine braking effects only the rear wheels.
Set your brake bias more to the back and see what happens when you hit the brakes, you'll find that unless you go in a perfectly straight line, you will loose the rear. Even if the brakes don't lock.
If you can't drive consistently with Heel-toe, there are other ways of doing it. And if people can't understand that. Than they haven't been thinking very hard about it, or trying other ways.
Just try to drive with bliping once on the end of your downshifts, you'll realize that it's just as fast. I'm not saying you have to put it in nutral, thats just what I was taught. But just finnish braking and then put it in the exit gear straight from one gear to the next, and blip after braking. You won't get any kind of time loss at all.
Heel-toe is a modern technique, I won't despute that. I won't despute that it works either. I never have.
What I am saying is that its not the ONLY way to shift, and it's not the fastest either. You can be just as fast without it, on a properly set up car.
Also, On the note of brakes, If you can't lock cold brakes, and I'll say this again. What happens when they get hot?
Thats easy to figure out. You will loose the ability to threshhold brake, and no amount of engine braking is going to compensate for that, because engine braking effects only the rear wheels.
Set your brake bias more to the back and see what happens when you hit the brakes, you'll find that unless you go in a perfectly straight line, you will loose the rear. Even if the brakes don't lock.
If you can't drive consistently with Heel-toe, there are other ways of doing it. And if people can't understand that. Than they haven't been thinking very hard about it, or trying other ways.
Just try to drive with bliping once on the end of your downshifts, you'll realize that it's just as fast. I'm not saying you have to put it in nutral, thats just what I was taught. But just finnish braking and then put it in the exit gear straight from one gear to the next, and blip after braking. You won't get any kind of time loss at all.
Like I said, I don't lock the brakes, thats a bad thing to do. But being able to lock atleast on cold brakes is neccisary to maintain good braking force when they get hot.
I don't know who set up these "race cars" you drove, but if they can't lock up even on cold brakes, they arn't going to give you very good braking when those brakes get hot.
In real life, I don't drive cars, I repair them. Everything from high performance to the lowest of low end.
Locking the wheels is bad, but not being able to bring them to the point of locking is worse, definatley if the brakes are cold. because then that tells you that you are going to loose alot of potential braking force when they get hot. remember, the pedal only travels so far, and then its just pressure sensitive, the hotter the brakes, the more pressure on the pedal you need to get the same braking force at the wheels. If you can't lock at all to begin with at maximum pedal pressure, than you are limmited by that maximum pressure you are able to apply to the pedal, limmiting you to less than optimal braking force.
I have my brakes in LFS set so they can lock if I completely cram the pedal to the floor, however, I still outbrake other drivers because I don't lock, I get to the point of almost locking, and don't go any further.
Last edited by DragonCommando, .
I have to quote myself because this was an edit while you where typing your reply
There wouldent be a threshhold technique if there was no threshhold in the first place.
how about this question, have you ever driven a race car?
If a car can't lock its brakes theres something wrong, every car I have ever seen never mind driven has been able to lock it's wheels.
I haven't driven a race car in real life, but I've done my research. If a car can't lock it's brakes it can't effectively hit the threshhold. You have to have a threshhold in order to cross one remember, so if you can't lock, you can't tell if you are getting full traction out of your tires durring braking. and no amount of tweaking will help that, because you are going to need to apply more pressure when the brakes fade, meaning if you can't lock to begin with, you won't get anywhere near optimal on hot brakes.
If a car can't lock its brakes theres something wrong, every car I have ever seen never mind driven has been able to lock it's wheels.
I haven't driven a race car in real life, but I've done my research. If a car can't lock it's brakes it can't effectively hit the threshhold. You have to have a threshhold in order to cross one remember, so if you can't lock, you can't tell if you are getting full traction out of your tires durring braking. and no amount of tweaking will help that, because you are going to need to apply more pressure when the brakes fade, meaning if you can't lock to begin with, you won't get anywhere near optimal on hot brakes.
They where normal road tires, practiacly new. However the brakes are normal as well.
Just watch a formula one race during a crash, they do lock up, even at 200km/h.
Cars in LFS have way to low braking force on most downloadable setups, they are set not to lock up. But a proper race setup CAN lock the wheels. Any race car driver will tell you that.
Just watch a formula one race during a crash, they do lock up, even at 200km/h.
Cars in LFS have way to low braking force on most downloadable setups, they are set not to lock up. But a proper race setup CAN lock the wheels. Any race car driver will tell you that.
I used to grip the wheel so tight that one race it made a cracking sound, like something snaped.
After that I taught myself to eas up my grip and keep my arms relaxed.
After that I taught myself to eas up my grip and keep my arms relaxed.
The time it takes to get it in gear either way is basicaly the same, you still have to get it to the right gear to be able to accelerate out. Nutraling in the braking zone means that you are in nutral long enough to let the car come to a slow enough speed that you can just simply blip once and put it into the gear for the exit. Your in nutral for such a short period of time, that its basicaly a double clutch.
You don't realy have to leave it in nutral either, It just takes that one extra step out of it when you hit the end of the braking zone.
Also, on older cars you where taught that you had to double clutch on downshifts as well as up shifts. but you still blip the throttle, the difference is, you never go 5-4-3 its always just 5-3 or 5-2 or whatever you need to go to.
I wish I could post a replay in the XRG, but my computer with the shifter attached (I use FFshifter) is currently unable to play LFS, It crashes because of an incompatablility with my motherboard drivers and new graphics card, so I've been playing without an H pattern for about a week now.
I think I just haven't gotten it across properly that the time it takes to do this is very short, since you don't put it in nutral untill the revs come down to a point where you won't get power in that gear.
Then you put it in nutral, finnish braking and put it in gear.
You don't realy have to leave it in nutral either, It just takes that one extra step out of it when you hit the end of the braking zone.
Also, on older cars you where taught that you had to double clutch on downshifts as well as up shifts. but you still blip the throttle, the difference is, you never go 5-4-3 its always just 5-3 or 5-2 or whatever you need to go to.
I wish I could post a replay in the XRG, but my computer with the shifter attached (I use FFshifter) is currently unable to play LFS, It crashes because of an incompatablility with my motherboard drivers and new graphics card, so I've been playing without an H pattern for about a week now.
I think I just haven't gotten it across properly that the time it takes to do this is very short, since you don't put it in nutral untill the revs come down to a point where you won't get power in that gear.
Then you put it in nutral, finnish braking and put it in gear.
The reason I was taught to do this is because if you have to select a different gear than your expected exit one for any reason, you already have the shifter in place, and it just takes a quick flick to put it in the right gear.
Edit: I was just told in this thread here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=35459&page=2 That my Dad's way of driving could be from when double clutching was needed. Which is likely, because He stopped racing before I was born. Like before 1980's
However, it still works, and I can go just as fast around a track with it as anyone who heel-toes, provided they are at the same skill level.
Edit2: you make it sound like the car is in nutral for a long time, it's only there untill you finnish braking, and it doesn't always go there as you start, usualy I put it in nutral just as the current gear drops below usable RPMs.
Edit: I was just told in this thread here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=35459&page=2 That my Dad's way of driving could be from when double clutching was needed. Which is likely, because He stopped racing before I was born. Like before 1980's
However, it still works, and I can go just as fast around a track with it as anyone who heel-toes, provided they are at the same skill level.
Edit2: you make it sound like the car is in nutral for a long time, it's only there untill you finnish braking, and it doesn't always go there as you start, usualy I put it in nutral just as the current gear drops below usable RPMs.
Last edited by DragonCommando, .
@ linsen
That article is to show that engine braking isn't the reason for heel-toe.
And that engine braking isn't the right thing to do. It can make things worse since you can't control it without maintaining throttle through the braking zone.
Edit: and I have to dissagree with him on one thing, not every successful driver uses heel-toe. I've seen many that don't, They just put the car in the right gear, come to the end of the braking zone and then blip and let the clutch out. I've even SEEN a pro driver nutral while braking, so they do it.
That article is to show that engine braking isn't the reason for heel-toe.
And that engine braking isn't the right thing to do. It can make things worse since you can't control it without maintaining throttle through the braking zone.
Edit: and I have to dissagree with him on one thing, not every successful driver uses heel-toe. I've seen many that don't, They just put the car in the right gear, come to the end of the braking zone and then blip and let the clutch out. I've even SEEN a pro driver nutral while braking, so they do it.
Last edited by DragonCommando, .
I can see you are getting a little bit condensending about this, so I'll put it simple. MY DAD USED TO RACE CARS.
Throwing the demo thing out there doesn't help your case at all.
Also, my dads Express 3200 can lock all four wheels at 140 km/h if you pop the ABS fuse out. If your brakes can't lock, you have a problem, or you haven't removed the ABS fuse.
On top of that, if you read the damn link 4 posts back, you'd realize that even a pro race car drivers says its wrong to us the engine to slow down, because it can upset the car even more. Thats why Drifters do it, to throw the car out.
Now as for doing it in the FZR, I'm almost positive its not realisticaly setup, since I can't drive it, I can't see your setup.
Heel-toe isn't for engine braking, its to prevent the shock created by the engine suddenly being spun up.
I know this for a fact, since on long rides I use engine braking on my motorbike to save my drum brakes from fading from heat. But I still use them if it requires changing down more than one gear, and I don't blip the throttle I pad it.
Throttle pading is basicaly a sustained blip, so I maintain the engine speed to prevent engine braking.
Infact, engine braking on loose surfaces is as bad as just chucking it into gear. Infact, my bike has such a strong engine brake effect, that even on pavement I can do the bike equivilent of heel-toe, match it perfectly and still when I let go of the throttle the rear breakes loose sometimes.
Engine braking puts more brake force to the rear wheels, so it's like setting the brake bias more to the rear. THAT is what causes the car to spin, if you have to much brake force to the rear the wheels will lock, and the only way to control engine braking is by pading the throttle to varying amounts.
Last edited by DragonCommando, .
Thanks for correcting that Hallen, thats actualy what I was trying to say, proper settup is a key to the style of driving you want to do.
I think I made an error when I described it the first time though, you actualy get in gear before the corner. I think I said something like at the apex the first time I described it. That would be retarded to do.
You still blip with this technique, it's just that you do it once.
And you double clutch on up shifts, but I don't see a use for it on a car with a fast throttle responce since the mechanical reason for it is to give the engine time to slow down before you pull the clutch out.
I double clutch on the XRG and that little car I can't remember the name of, because they don't drop off fast enough, I'm used to cars with fast throttle-off responce.
I actualy killed the clutch in a rally race with the XRG because I kept engageing the clutch to fast after the shift.
I think I made an error when I described it the first time though, you actualy get in gear before the corner. I think I said something like at the apex the first time I described it. That would be retarded to do.
You still blip with this technique, it's just that you do it once.
And you double clutch on up shifts, but I don't see a use for it on a car with a fast throttle responce since the mechanical reason for it is to give the engine time to slow down before you pull the clutch out.
I double clutch on the XRG and that little car I can't remember the name of, because they don't drop off fast enough, I'm used to cars with fast throttle-off responce.
I actualy killed the clutch in a rally race with the XRG because I kept engageing the clutch to fast after the shift.
Thats a load of bull dude, if the tires can't handel anymore braking, they can't handel anymore tractional stress, meaning that no type of braking is going to do anything.
I think you should look at the physics of it first, before posting something that is physicaly unlogical.
I keep the clutch in when I drive the FBM.
The whole point behind my saying it's pointless. Well thats simple.
As I said, if you brake with the normal brakes and then engine brake, your regular brakes STILL heat up the same amount, mainly your front ones because they don't get effected by engine braking at all.
Engine braking is only usefull for when you DON'T use the friction brakes, then it saves you the heat and wear, where as it would require them otherwhise
Edit: whats your time on BLGP1 ajp?
Edit2: This is a book writen by a pro race car driver:
http://books.google.com/books? ... 888lMiv8niDYeK_o#PPA20,M1
On page 20 he explaines exacly what I was saying. He also explainse Heel-toe downshifting for anyone who wants to know, it's on page 21.
Edit3: I should also point out that I have combined pedals, so I can't heel-toe. That I have to do on a real car to test.
Also, to conferm the reason for nutral shifting, it actualy reduces the time it takes to shift, because all you have to do is switch gears, or find a gear if you need to do an escape.
The whole point behind my saying it's pointless. Well thats simple.
As I said, if you brake with the normal brakes and then engine brake, your regular brakes STILL heat up the same amount, mainly your front ones because they don't get effected by engine braking at all.
Engine braking is only usefull for when you DON'T use the friction brakes, then it saves you the heat and wear, where as it would require them otherwhise
Edit: whats your time on BLGP1 ajp?
Edit2: This is a book writen by a pro race car driver:
http://books.google.com/books? ... 888lMiv8niDYeK_o#PPA20,M1
On page 20 he explaines exacly what I was saying. He also explainse Heel-toe downshifting for anyone who wants to know, it's on page 21.
Edit3: I should also point out that I have combined pedals, so I can't heel-toe. That I have to do on a real car to test.
Also, to conferm the reason for nutral shifting, it actualy reduces the time it takes to shift, because all you have to do is switch gears, or find a gear if you need to do an escape.
Last edited by DragonCommando, .
Exactly.
So many people have become so crazed over heel-toe, they fail to realize that it's not the only right way to do it.
On a properly set up car, you don't NEED to heel-toe.
My dad actualy does it an odd way, he puts it in nutral and finnished braking, and then puts it in the right gear and clutches out as he hits the throttle.
I asked him if that takes control of the car away from him, and he showed me why it doesn't. It takes the same time both ways to get the power back on, and they both are just as smooth.
And the cars he drove where all muscle cars, big V8s with alot of power.
He also owned a Datsun 280xz SE. Manual transmission of cource.
If you have to engine brake to get the most out of your tires traction, your brake bias is wrong. When you brake, the weight of the car rolls forward onto the front wheels, so the rear wheels can not give full traction regardless of engine braking or not, so the best option is to find a balance between front and back that alows the most braking on all four wheels.
A good way to set this is to set it twards the back to a point that the rear wheels can lock before the front ones, and then work forward untill you get a ballanced tractional force front to back. The cool thing is, the FBM can do this on track, so no garage trips over and over.
Also, putting the car in nutral is not giving up controll of the car, since you still only have to select the right gear and take your foot off of the brake and place it on the accelerator pedal.
It's just as fast, because either way, to actualy accelerate you have take your foot off the brake, get into the right gear and push the accelerator pedal.
Engine braking is a good way to manage brake heat, so doing it while using the friction brakes is pointless, it won't help you any. It should be used for faster turns where you won't need to use the brakes.
Edit @ andy:
Your engine won't do jack against locking up the brakes when the throttle is closed, and it is during braking.
I ride a motor bike, and I can stall the engine going 50, just by locking the rear wheel on a slippery surface, I don't even need to apply that much brake force.
A good way to set this is to set it twards the back to a point that the rear wheels can lock before the front ones, and then work forward untill you get a ballanced tractional force front to back. The cool thing is, the FBM can do this on track, so no garage trips over and over.
Also, putting the car in nutral is not giving up controll of the car, since you still only have to select the right gear and take your foot off of the brake and place it on the accelerator pedal.
It's just as fast, because either way, to actualy accelerate you have take your foot off the brake, get into the right gear and push the accelerator pedal.
Engine braking is a good way to manage brake heat, so doing it while using the friction brakes is pointless, it won't help you any. It should be used for faster turns where you won't need to use the brakes.
Edit @ andy:
Your engine won't do jack against locking up the brakes when the throttle is closed, and it is during braking.
I ride a motor bike, and I can stall the engine going 50, just by locking the rear wheel on a slippery surface, I don't even need to apply that much brake force.
Last edited by DragonCommando, .
But engine braking is caused by the vacume in the manifold slowing down the engine, not the transmission draging the engine up to speed, thats still a form of friction braking, and can be very bad.
Heel-toe takes the friction part out, but still alows you to use engine braking when you lift off the throttle, especialy because you are now in a lower gear where engine braking will have more of an effect.
You can still engine brake with the nutral shift style, but you can only do it on the turn in, after you've pulled clutch out.
Edit: engine braking CAN NOT decrease your cars braking distance, you are still limmited by your tires tractional limmits.
Good use of the threshold technique will give you much better braking distance than any amount of heel-toe downshifting engine braking bunk.
Heel-toe takes the friction part out, but still alows you to use engine braking when you lift off the throttle, especialy because you are now in a lower gear where engine braking will have more of an effect.
You can still engine brake with the nutral shift style, but you can only do it on the turn in, after you've pulled clutch out.
Edit: engine braking CAN NOT decrease your cars braking distance, you are still limmited by your tires tractional limmits.
Good use of the threshold technique will give you much better braking distance than any amount of heel-toe downshifting engine braking bunk.
Last edited by DragonCommando, .
You shouldn't become a slave to Heel-toe downshifting, if you don't learn to keep the car stable and fast without it, then you are screwed if you can't do it for any reason. I have combined peddals, so I can't heel-toe, so I've had learned another technique.
My dad used to race cars before I was in his life, and untill I brought it up, he'd never heard of it. To qoute him "That sounds like a load of crap, I don't care if 'Professionals' are doing it, it's a waste of time.
I'll teach you the right way to drive a race car."
And he did, I may not be that fast, but I'm a whole lot faster after he showed me the basics.
He even did both, he tried heel-toe and then he did it his way. There was no difference in the way the car reacted either way, other than engine braking, but thats negligable. According to him, the only use for it is on single shifts where you want to engine brake before going around a loose turn. Even then, it's not realy heel-toe, it's just a blip, and all that does is save you from having to use the brakes.
My dad used to race cars before I was in his life, and untill I brought it up, he'd never heard of it. To qoute him "That sounds like a load of crap, I don't care if 'Professionals' are doing it, it's a waste of time.
I'll teach you the right way to drive a race car."
And he did, I may not be that fast, but I'm a whole lot faster after he showed me the basics.
He even did both, he tried heel-toe and then he did it his way. There was no difference in the way the car reacted either way, other than engine braking, but thats negligable. According to him, the only use for it is on single shifts where you want to engine brake before going around a loose turn. Even then, it's not realy heel-toe, it's just a blip, and all that does is save you from having to use the brakes.
Heel-toe shifting is just a way to keep the car stable while braking.
However, for new drivers, and even alot of experianced drivers do this. It's much easier to just keep the car in nutral and only gear in when you need the power back on.
I.E.
Come to the corner and start braking, then put the car in nutral.
Finnish your straight braking and put the car into the correct gear as you use the accelerater peddal to match the revs. Then let the clutch out and continue to the apex, then accelerate through the turn.
You can even shift to a low enough gear that you can use the engine braking to trail brake.
Heel-toe doesn't reduce the effect of engine braking, because that will occur as long as the throttle is closed, but it removes the negitive torque impact on the engine as the slower moving driveline engages. Which is what causes that sudden weight transfer to the front of the car.
However, for new drivers, and even alot of experianced drivers do this. It's much easier to just keep the car in nutral and only gear in when you need the power back on.
I.E.
Come to the corner and start braking, then put the car in nutral.
Finnish your straight braking and put the car into the correct gear as you use the accelerater peddal to match the revs. Then let the clutch out and continue to the apex, then accelerate through the turn.
You can even shift to a low enough gear that you can use the engine braking to trail brake.
Heel-toe doesn't reduce the effect of engine braking, because that will occur as long as the throttle is closed, but it removes the negitive torque impact on the engine as the slower moving driveline engages. Which is what causes that sudden weight transfer to the front of the car.
Remove locked diffs from anything but Drag, I don't think rally cross uses locked diffs.
At least this way, it gives the demo users (myself included) just one more thing to buy the game for. (although I'm already getting it)
At least this way, it gives the demo users (myself included) just one more thing to buy the game for. (although I'm already getting it)
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG