Then the fast guys should know to stay the hell away from the newbies. If they're so much slower, take them where's it's easy, on the straight.
Rookies try to take the fight to seasoned veterans all the time. Any entry-level professional series and every club series has brand new drivers every year. I frequently see brand new drivers taking part in their first open test session. The real rules most certainly apply to virtual racing. Not in their entirety, but pretty much all of the on-track stuff will benefit sim racers. Racing is racing, be it arcade, sim, or real life, from RC cars to F1.
My coach tells me about the kids in karting all the time. Some of them are 5, 6 years old. You stay the hell away from them if you can. Sometimes, they get scared of the speed, lock the brakes on a strightaway, or spear off the track for absolutely no reason (in a 10-grand professional kart, no less). They brake early, or way too late, they turn in at odd times, they stick their noses in where they don't belong and get punted off the track... yes, they're children, but much of this behavior is mimmicked by adult counterparts as well. When you're going into a Koni Challenge race, and the class leaders are 5 seconds faster per lap than 10 other guys, you darn well better learn really quick who's fast and who isn't and who to pass where and how.
By complaining about someone who is slow, that they caused a crash because you couldn't get by, you are simply admitting that your head is not in the game. You didn't take the time to study your rate of closing, you didn't observe, from afar, their apex speed, thier turn in points, their braking points or whether they fully used the rumble strip on exit. You didn't bother to judge where to catch the lap traffic, and caught them in an unadventagous spot. It's not their fault that they're slow. The only time it's not the follower's fault, is when he makes a pass, is legitimately alongside, and the slower driver turns in on him. But, he's not the follower at that point, is he?
Last edited by MadCat360, .
I stand corrected.
What can you adjust on the fly with the G25? For clarity, on the fly means not taking me out of the game and doable on the run. Why would I want an LCD on my keyboard?
Did it not occur to you that I might just maybe play other games than LFS? There are plenty of things to put on the face of the wheel. Talk button, pit limiter, indicators, look buttons, wipers, headlights, flash button... on and on.
Why do people always insist the G25's better? I don't like the G25. It doesn't fit my needs and I don't like the way it feels. I will never own one. The Fanatec is the one I've bought because I like the feel and it fits my needs.
1. Clubsport pedals. PS, the G25's pedals are all plastic except for the actual foot plates and the springs.
2. The accelerator has the same resistance as all the cars I've driven, which is good because the plastic standard pedals are the ones that simulate the street car. The clubsport pedals are fully adjustable, position and resistance, and feel more like a race car. Also, magnetic sensors. The only moving part is the spring and guide rod of each pedal, and it's USB, so no matter what happens to the wheel, I will always be able to use the pedals, and they will last forever. I won't ever use the standard pedals; I bought the pure edition, which is just the wheel with the paddle shifters. I'll be able to use my current Xbox's pedals until I feel the need to pick up the shifter set (50 bucks) and the clubsport pedals.
3. Yes, two metal rods insert into the wheel and the gear stick goes on that. A short wire is connected from the shifter to the wheel. it can go on either side. There are some complaints about stability, but if you mount the shifter slightly closer to the wheel it's fine.
4. No.
It has to work both with my consoles and my PC. The G25 does not work with the Xbox (contrary to popular belief, there are good racing games on the Xbox). The Fanatec Turbo S works on everything. Also, the Turbo has more buttons on it.It feels like a toy. That's what I like about the Fanatec. It feels more meaty and satisfying, both the wheel and the shifter. I know there are mods for the G25, but I'd rather not buy a product that I must improve myself, thanks.
The G25's a fine wheel, but the Fanatec has all the features I want that the G25 doesn't have. Like, for instance, a programmable LED display and on-the-fly adjustment via said display.
Last edited by MadCat360, .
Did you give any consideration to buying a slider chassis or pod section of say a Formula First/Vee or a Formula Ford car and then modifying it? They can be found quite cheap, and it doesn't have to be in race condition either. Probably expect to pay about 1k to 2k.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
I ordered the Turbo S pure edition since I have the Xbox wheel (s**tty wheel but the pedals are okay, the freaking plastic flappy paddle snapped off and I don't abuse it at all!). I'm looking forward to picking up a set of those clubsport pedals later on. They look absolutely insane...
I'm using whatever version is on the demo download page. I haven't installed any special stuff.
Thankfully I won't be a keyboard user much longer. My Fanatec 911 is on order!
Thanks for the help guys.
No, it's always the fault of the follower. If you're following so close as to not react to suddenly short braking points, you should already be past the driver or pulling out to pass at that point.
If it's a timed quali session it's his responsibility to time his run through the series of corners and pass you on the exit if he really wants to get by. I have no problem with passing in quali, I find that it doesn't affect my time when done properly, but most people will disagree. I have no problems being passed, but generally I never pass anyone except if they're going very, very slow and I can spare the time.
If you're on an out lap and he's on a timed lap, you should be intelligent about it. Try to time your warmup so he'll catch you on a straight just to avoid nastiness. Gone are the days when the following car is at fault... an unfortunate side effect of arrogance.
Didn't know LFS had flatspots. Kinda hard to avoid with keyboard driving...
Small puffs of smoke from tires?
Are my tires farting? Going down the straights there are small puffs of smoke coming from my tires... doesn't happen all the time, seems pretty random. Anyone know what it is?
I drive in open testing sessions a lot IRL. If I get the blue flag, all I do is lift on the next straight. Just lift for a one-onethousand a little ways after your turn exit point, flash your indicator and let the dude by. Don't go off-line. The passer has to get by YOU, and he has to know what you're going to do, so be predictable. Just make it easier for him by lifting. Don't touch the brakes. This will freak the guy out.
In a real open session, usually the only rule is to not pass in corners, and to not press the pass if you're not alongside in the braking area. If you're only halfway alongside, abort the pass. Sometimes in real life the driver will see you with just a nose in, but he definitely won't in a game since we're all on very restricting monitors.
Usually the track coordinators will leave it up to the passing car to get by, and they won't issue blue flags. In these situations, if you're not exiting the corner faster than the other guy or don't have monumentally better brakes, just lift, take the pits, whatever you need to do to get space. It's amazing how many professional drivers will just sit there on the tail of a guy for laps and laps hoping he'll let them through. Just drop back, get space. You're talking about 10 or 20 cars sharing 2.5 or so miles of track space. There is enough for everyone. Don't feel cheated if someone won't let you by.
Anyway, being passed, just lift, or short shift, or something, on the next straight. Don't, whatever you do, run wide on a corner. You usually have no idea how many cars will come through, and very very few of the guys out there have ever really learned how to manage traffic safely.
The best way to pass is to get a better run out of a corner. This is very hard to do when the car ahead of you is the same type. It's also hard to do when the car ahead is very slow. The slower the car ahead, the more room you need to get a run through the corner. I can't even tell you how many kid karts I've overtaken from 10 or 12 kart lengths back just by getting a run through a corner.
The second best pass is under the brakes. Maybe you're in a Formula car with very good brakes but low horsepower and you want to get by a GT car. Brakes are your only option. When passing under the brakes, it is best not to throw it in deep. Brake at your normal point, just lighter. If you're not alongside by the turn-in point, abort.
The safest outbraking pass is done close to your opponent. You NEED to make sure they see you. The bigger you are in their vision, the less inclined they will be to turn in on you. If you throw in a pass and you're 2 car widths to the inside, he'll just turn in anyway, you'll have to slow a lot to make the corner for not opening your exit, and he'll probably hit your rear.
Leave half a car width between you, get up there, get alongside and dictate the corner to him.
The only provision to that is if you're a Formula car and he's a GT car, don't get too close, otherwise he difninitely won't see you; you're smaller than his door frame. But, a Formula car can hugely outbrake a GT car so it's not that big a deal. You should be well in front of him by the turn in anyway. Just be aware that you're small and he is big and probably can't see you till you're in front.
Open passing is very much no-man's-land. The first day I ever did an open session, I got beaned by a very experienced guy. I slowed, took the final corner slowly (cooldown lap), he assumed I'd go wide, I turned in, he came down full speed, we whacked wheels and broke each other's steering arms.
In a real open session, usually the only rule is to not pass in corners, and to not press the pass if you're not alongside in the braking area. If you're only halfway alongside, abort the pass. Sometimes in real life the driver will see you with just a nose in, but he definitely won't in a game since we're all on very restricting monitors.
Usually the track coordinators will leave it up to the passing car to get by, and they won't issue blue flags. In these situations, if you're not exiting the corner faster than the other guy or don't have monumentally better brakes, just lift, take the pits, whatever you need to do to get space. It's amazing how many professional drivers will just sit there on the tail of a guy for laps and laps hoping he'll let them through. Just drop back, get space. You're talking about 10 or 20 cars sharing 2.5 or so miles of track space. There is enough for everyone. Don't feel cheated if someone won't let you by.
Anyway, being passed, just lift, or short shift, or something, on the next straight. Don't, whatever you do, run wide on a corner. You usually have no idea how many cars will come through, and very very few of the guys out there have ever really learned how to manage traffic safely.
The best way to pass is to get a better run out of a corner. This is very hard to do when the car ahead of you is the same type. It's also hard to do when the car ahead is very slow. The slower the car ahead, the more room you need to get a run through the corner. I can't even tell you how many kid karts I've overtaken from 10 or 12 kart lengths back just by getting a run through a corner.
The second best pass is under the brakes. Maybe you're in a Formula car with very good brakes but low horsepower and you want to get by a GT car. Brakes are your only option. When passing under the brakes, it is best not to throw it in deep. Brake at your normal point, just lighter. If you're not alongside by the turn-in point, abort.
The safest outbraking pass is done close to your opponent. You NEED to make sure they see you. The bigger you are in their vision, the less inclined they will be to turn in on you. If you throw in a pass and you're 2 car widths to the inside, he'll just turn in anyway, you'll have to slow a lot to make the corner for not opening your exit, and he'll probably hit your rear.
Leave half a car width between you, get up there, get alongside and dictate the corner to him.
The only provision to that is if you're a Formula car and he's a GT car, don't get too close, otherwise he difninitely won't see you; you're smaller than his door frame. But, a Formula car can hugely outbrake a GT car so it's not that big a deal. You should be well in front of him by the turn in anyway. Just be aware that you're small and he is big and probably can't see you till you're in front.
Open passing is very much no-man's-land. The first day I ever did an open session, I got beaned by a very experienced guy. I slowed, took the final corner slowly (cooldown lap), he assumed I'd go wide, I turned in, he came down full speed, we whacked wheels and broke each other's steering arms.
Well, that solves that.
There's more to it, as well. It's a problem at all speeds, in the karting series I'm competing in this year, the end of the pit straight at Infineon Upper is bent 90 degrees, and it's quite narrow. In the morning, when it's about 55 or 60 degrees and we leave with brand new slick tires, sometimes it's hard to take that turn at walking pace. You can drift that corner at 3 MPH with cold tires. Karts have this problem in the extreme since they're so light and the tires are so huge compared to the size of the car.
When we exit the pits and get down to turn 2 (exit is just at the exit of 1), we have to take turn 2 at about 10 or 15 MPH, normally taken at 50 MPH, which is sometimes hard to do since the braking zone is downhill and very bumpy, and we only have 1 very cold brake disc to work with very cold rear tires. Even at 15 MPH, we almost don't make it around the corner, but we have to go that fast because any slower and the tires would just not heat up at all. Once we get out of the turn 2 and 3 complex (right left right right) the tire's are pretty good and you can take a pretty normal warmup lap.
The other problem is that you have a very cold set of rear tires, so as you're heating the fronts, they're gaining grip (this is over the course of half a second on turn in), they bite, and then the cold rears start to come around. If you're not ready for them (you've been understeering) you'll spin, even at 15 MPH. And it's worse on banked turns. This also means you can't weave on the straight. Normally we don't weave, it wears your steering rack out more than it heats the tires, but at these temps it's tempting. Problem is, the rears are so cold that a pendulum-inducing weave will make you spin.
So all you can do is bite the bullet and hope you make the first turn.
I've seen some really cold days where almost everyone, even experienced racers, spin in turn 1.
Last edited by MadCat360, .
I'm no physics professor, but I do have a lot of first hand experience with racing tires, both on karts and cars.
Now, I don't know what temps you start out with, but when you turn into a corner in say a Formula BMW in LFS the car responds immediately. This does not happen in real life with new cold slick tires. It takes about half a second for the fronts to start responding in such a light car with such relatively large footprints. It's important to note that this only happens with brand new, cold slick tires. This phenomenon is almost imperceptible with street tires because a, the car is much heavier, and b, the tire surface area is less because of the tread. Once the slick tire has a lap worn into it, this first-corner scramble for grip will never happen again no matter how cold the tire is.
This brings me to wear. A common misconception is that rubber leaving the tire takes away grip. Not so, at least these days. Grip is lost (or gained) purely via heat, in the form of the molecular composition of the tire. Cold tires are baked specifically so that they will gain grip as the temperature changes, we all know this. What most people don't realize is that the tire's composition will never return to factory. You can't stick a pizza in the oven for 3 minutes and just let it cool down. It won't be the same. As soon as a tire is overcooked, it's done. One really slidey lap on a hot day will usually ruin a tire set for life in heavier classes. Heat those sticker bad boys up once with a blanket, bring them back down slow, and you won't leave the pits without grip, or at least enough of it.
The second part to that is that extended running at even optimal temps will cause the tire to die or fall off. Cook a pizza too long and it gets really hard. Same thing with tires. It's got nothing to do these days with rubber coming off. The tires bake themslves to oblivion well before they delaminate.
You can see this easily. Go to an IndyCar race, or even an SCCA event with Formula cars, and just look at the tires coming off the cars. The quick cars will have a nice even river pattern on them, very fine, like wood. The slow cars will either have a very big, messy pattern or worse, an uneven one. The big pattern means bad (overcooked) tire, the uneven pattern means bad car. If the fast cars with the nice, sexy patterns make a really long stint, look at the tires again when they come off. They'll be ugly, and if you're like me, they'll make you want to puke, because no one who drives seriously likes to see a tire treated that way.
As far as surface goes, the smoothest surface (think concrete indoor kart track) generates the most heat, but offers the least grip. It also chews the tire less - the rubber will last longer, but it will lose grip quicker due to heat. The rougher surface (think Bahrain with their stupid acid wash) offers the most grip, but less heat (less friction, less heat). It also chews tires a lot, but the composition lasts longer due to less heat. The differences don't make as much of a difference as they could, since pretty much all naturally mantained tracks keep the rubber for a good while.
That's my experience with tires, anyway. I always say to people, the most interesting thing about tires is that they get to 200, maybe 300 degrees. My oven does that every day. Tires are just a frozen pizza.
Now, I don't know what temps you start out with, but when you turn into a corner in say a Formula BMW in LFS the car responds immediately. This does not happen in real life with new cold slick tires. It takes about half a second for the fronts to start responding in such a light car with such relatively large footprints. It's important to note that this only happens with brand new, cold slick tires. This phenomenon is almost imperceptible with street tires because a, the car is much heavier, and b, the tire surface area is less because of the tread. Once the slick tire has a lap worn into it, this first-corner scramble for grip will never happen again no matter how cold the tire is.
This brings me to wear. A common misconception is that rubber leaving the tire takes away grip. Not so, at least these days. Grip is lost (or gained) purely via heat, in the form of the molecular composition of the tire. Cold tires are baked specifically so that they will gain grip as the temperature changes, we all know this. What most people don't realize is that the tire's composition will never return to factory. You can't stick a pizza in the oven for 3 minutes and just let it cool down. It won't be the same. As soon as a tire is overcooked, it's done. One really slidey lap on a hot day will usually ruin a tire set for life in heavier classes. Heat those sticker bad boys up once with a blanket, bring them back down slow, and you won't leave the pits without grip, or at least enough of it.
The second part to that is that extended running at even optimal temps will cause the tire to die or fall off. Cook a pizza too long and it gets really hard. Same thing with tires. It's got nothing to do these days with rubber coming off. The tires bake themslves to oblivion well before they delaminate.
You can see this easily. Go to an IndyCar race, or even an SCCA event with Formula cars, and just look at the tires coming off the cars. The quick cars will have a nice even river pattern on them, very fine, like wood. The slow cars will either have a very big, messy pattern or worse, an uneven one. The big pattern means bad (overcooked) tire, the uneven pattern means bad car. If the fast cars with the nice, sexy patterns make a really long stint, look at the tires again when they come off. They'll be ugly, and if you're like me, they'll make you want to puke, because no one who drives seriously likes to see a tire treated that way.
As far as surface goes, the smoothest surface (think concrete indoor kart track) generates the most heat, but offers the least grip. It also chews the tire less - the rubber will last longer, but it will lose grip quicker due to heat. The rougher surface (think Bahrain with their stupid acid wash) offers the most grip, but less heat (less friction, less heat). It also chews tires a lot, but the composition lasts longer due to less heat. The differences don't make as much of a difference as they could, since pretty much all naturally mantained tracks keep the rubber for a good while.
That's my experience with tires, anyway. I always say to people, the most interesting thing about tires is that they get to 200, maybe 300 degrees. My oven does that every day. Tires are just a frozen pizza.
Yeah, just caught that. Oh well. Been playing the demo for a few weeks now.
Yes, asphalt, also known as racing surface, blacktop, and a number of various names I've been calling it over the years that I can't repeat here, is quite a funny thing. I especially hate it when it starts to crumble. I need a new visor every session when that happens. Though, I still prefer it to concrete. I wish they wouldn't patch the asphalt with quicrete. I just wish cold tires stuck to it a bit better.
There's only one track in the demo, I thought the distinction was quite obvious. I was reading about your population worries in the game, maybe if you sim racers were a little less pedantic you'd get more dudes in the fold.
I'm using a mouse and keyboard (Fanatec wheel getting here July), but I'm pretty handy with a race car so lets see how this goes.
We're allowed to use setups right? And "both configurations" means RallyX and blacktop right? Or just the "XRG" and the "XFG" on blacktop?
We're allowed to use setups right? And "both configurations" means RallyX and blacktop right? Or just the "XRG" and the "XFG" on blacktop?
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG