Quote from logitekg25 :

where can i find this guy?

You can hire Ric to be your personal coach for any event. You could also come out to California and take a Jim Russell class, but no guarantee that you'll meet Ric.

Quote from logitekg25 :

so basically trail braking

Yes, but trailing the brake before the turn in point. Most racers are already adding steering while threshold braking. With thirds braking, you're bleeding off the brake a good 30 or 40 feet before the turn in. Just to ease the effort of slowing down to allow your brain to focus on rolling speed rather than utter stoppage. Using thirds braking I'm easily carrying in a good half a mile an hour more into the corners, sometimes more, especially on new corners.

Quote from VTRacing :

Forbin it makes perfect sense to me.

And I have tested it in real life with many different cars on different surfaces. The braking force required to lock a wheel is higher at a higher speed and lower at a lower speed.

I've been trying to think of a practical situation that matches the car's situation, but I can't think of anything that's a good fit. The best I could come up with is a freely spinning tire. Spin the tire at 100 MPH, and try to stop it using only your hands. Doesn't really work, even without the road underneath. But, it's easy to stop the wheel spinning at 3 MPH using just your hands. It still doesn't account for the mass of the car or the friction of the road, but I think it still applies.

Quote from logitekg25 :

care to explain thirds braking thing?

Ric's theory is that a full threshold stop from the beginning of the braking zone all the way to turn in will cause the driver to over-slow the corner. To combat this, he divides his braking zones into thirds.

We use threshold pressure for the first two thirds, then bleed off the brake during the last third so that before the turn-in point our tires are no longer making that nice chirping threshold noise. This will allow our brains to process the speed faster and get a more accurate feel for how fast exactly to enter the corner, rather than focusing wholly on slowing down even at the turn in point. It's a technique to supplement consistency and in so doing increasing our speed over the course of a race.

I don't use the thirds bit, but I make sure that I'm bleeding off the brake just before the turn in point. Works good for me, rather than holding threshold all the way to turn in.

Last edited by MadCat360, Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:56.

Quote from Hallen :

Wow, that is more like the original "heal toe" where they did brake with their heal. I can see that he is using the ball of his foot and pivoting to blip the throttle though so he isn't really using his heal. Cool shot. I'm going to have to give it a try that way since I always run into trouble with my heal hitting the floor when I try to blip the throttle with my heal.

I also had never seen somebody switch the foot they are braking with mid-corner like that. I can understand though, using the throttle to balance the car along with the brake would be advantageous in that car.

Quote from Pablo Donoso :

lol Rick, white dude kinda like capt. picard haircut? If that's the same guy, I had him as an instructor too back in '02 xD. John is the b0m, he wears glasses, but you wouldn't think he could drive. He opens up a can 'o who0o0p ass on the track though.

Yeah, my side kick was just the most comfortable and more importantly, most consistent on both blips and braking. lol

Yep. Ric has a lot of interesting ideas on braking. Pablo, did he ever give you the "thirds braking" rundown? I remember that very well from my first day. He's brilliant.

Quote from NightShift :

AFAICT replacement parts are manufactured specifically for historical cars. But I'm sure Tristan can tell you more about that than I could ever do

There are a few factories that still keep a stockpile of old parts. Like Bugatti is keeping parts for the Veyron, for down the road, and it's either Bentley or Rolls Royce keeps tons of old parts.

Quote from JasonL220 :

So the maximum grip and therefore braking capabilities do not change with speed.

Well, I can't pull out all the fancy numbers so I can't really say you're wrong.

Quote from Forbin :

None of that makes any sense at all. Your understanding of physics is severely flawed. Have you even taken high school physics yet?

My parents say I'm special.



(really I couldn't afford highschool. The government took all our money so I left school)

Quote from Forbin :

Your statement is not very well defined.

It's easy enough. The wheel is spinning very fast at 125 MPH. It does so because the force being applied to it by the road is greater. Therefore, the brake must overcome the force of the road going underneath to lock the wheels. This requires more clamp at faster speed than it does at lower speed. Car's can't ignore the laws of physics just because they roll along.

I'm very skeptical. If I tried to pull that stunt with my kart I'd be facing the oncoming field faster than you could say "head-on collision". I can't imagine it being a different case with any other Formula car, or even a stiffly sprung car period. A soft car, maybe.

Eh, in the end, we shouldn't be trying to counter throttle lift oversteer, rather just preventing it by always working one pedal or the other.

Quote from Forbin :

Only if downforce is involved.

That's silly. It's basic kinetic energy. The faster an object moves, the more force is required to stop it, no matter what the stoppage device is.

Okay, so if I do manage to get threshold working from 125 MPH to 60 MPH, what do I do about trail braking?

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Frankly the point of cars is to drive them, not lock them up under dusted sheets in heated garages and bring them out twice a year, when someone pays you to bring them to a show.

I'd rather eat $25million than buy a car and not use it every day.. I could buy a pretty nicely sized island for that....or immunity in America, whatever takes your fancy..

Aha, you know, you say that but...



The owner has taken it all around the world to various tracks and runs it quite hard.

Quote from Intrepid :

This what they had at my local kart track



Shame I wasn't there to watch was rather humourous I hear.

Damn. Outdone on the first page. Although, we did have an Alfa Romeo 50's Grand Prix car a few months ago. That one gets tracked, too.

This '62 Ferrari 250 GTO was at my karting meet:













I got to sit in it earlier in the year. It's like sitting in 40 years of pure motorsports spirit. The owner has a bunch of classic Ferraris and Maseratis. He brings one up every race weekend.

Quote from Pablo Donoso :

speaking of which, the I found the actual complete footage of the heel-to-toe scene I put in my "through the fog" youtube video. I shot the footage also on that same section of road, it's just a much better view, more detailed then the other one, since it's the complete footage, so you get a better sense of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G41qs6rXLUc

I never liked the traditional way of doing it, with the side of the foot. Skip Barber taught me to cover both pedals with each half of my foot and to just turn my knee over to blip. Kinda hard to do in a road car with wide pedals though.

But watch how one of my other instructors does it, from Jim Russell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... jUCIA&feature=related

He blips with his toes... never seen that done. Looks smooth.

He's big on left-foot braking, too.

Quote from STF :

i lold. You sure it`s not a wormhole?

Next time I break a control arm I'll tell my engineer it was a micro wormhole followed by subatomic wind.

Quote from SparkyDave :

even this thread is giving new users the impression that bumping a car infront is acceptable, and I don't think on a "normal non-oval" race track that it is.

It's acceptable if you know the guy you're bumping and that he's okay with a little bit of posturing. Your average racer will freak out over body contact. It's not a good way to introduce oneself.

Quote from Forbin :

That's what the max braking force is for.

The threshold brake pressure changes as you change speeds. What may be under the limit at high speed is lockup at low speed.

Quote from Forbin :

:rolleyes:

This test is meaningless when talking about LFS. LFS's brake bias directly controls the torque split between the front and rear wheels. Forza's brake bias controls the pressure split, and from there determines the true torque split, which is hidden from the player.

For the record, LFS has a live accelerometer in the F9 screen (some other F screens too, IIRC).

I don't have a wheel for LFS, so getting the right threshold braking out of a button isn't exactly, well, possible. It's just an illustration. Obviously it could vary a little bit in LFS.

Quote from lihakasa :

I tried with more balance towards the rear and it was horrible for me, couldnt keep the wheels from locking without going seriously low on the brake power if you have yourself a FBM setup with settings that favour trail braking more could you share maybe .. ?

I don't have a set as I use the keyboard. When the wheels locked, would the back end get loose? Are the back wheels locking or the front?

"professional sim racer"?

Quote from RasmusL :

I usually don't think a low front brake bias is a good idea.. The bias should be set up for maximum straight braking force, which usually means 60-70% front braking (weight goes forward when braking).

I just did a practical test in Forza 2 (because it has live telemetry). This is with a Ferrari F40, slicks and downforce added.

60% Fore 180 MPH: 1.35G

50% Fore 180 MPH: 1.55G

45% Fore 180 MPH 1.50G

45% is slower to 0 but for me it was faster around the corner since I didn't have to use as much brake to get the car at the right angle. Physics says the fronts should lock first by a fraction of a second, but rear brake bias favors my driving style and I'm faster with it around the corner. I'm just used to doing it that way because I've been racing rear-braking-only sprint karts for the past 2 years, and I try to get everyone else to do it that way because I'm an egomaniac.

Truth is, you gotta use what suits your driving. If you're not a big trail braker then front brake bias will be faster for you. But everyone should try it.

Quote from lihakasa :

Thanks for the post, was a good read. But Im a little unclear about the 1st chapter, especially the 0 degree toe part, could you try to explain that part a little differently?

I'll definately practice trail braking, but it just gets me rear tyres to lose traction, I guess it'll be better with 50/50 brake balance

Sure. Toe is the direction of face for the tire. Toe out means the tires are facing outward from each other slightly. Toe in means they "pinch" together. Toe affects balance more than anything, as it causes slight drag. Extreme toe settings will shred tires on straights. 0 degree toe means the tires have no face bias - they're straight and true. If you can make a setup work without resorting to toe to balance it, then all the better.

If your rear tires are losing traction with front brake bias then 50/50 will only make it more twitchy. I only suggested it because it would make the effects of trail braking more obvious. Ultimately, you want as much rear brake bias as you can handle, since it makes the car respond to much more delicate inputs, and thus you lose less speed trying to make it rotate. Try it, see if you like it, but if you're already getting loose then you probably won't like it much. I suggest just notching it back in 3% increments until you find the happy medium. Be warned, though, too much rear brake bias and you'll spin if you lock the brakes (40/60 or more, generally).

Quote from JeffR :

Sorrty, I left out a paragraph. Hewland sequential shift trannies can be shifted without the clutch, and depending on the electronics, shifted without clutch or without lifting. Another common brand of no-lift sequential shifter is made by XTRAC.

A racing form of DCT (dual clutch transmission) has dual clutches with even and odd gears running on different shafts, allowing for overlapped gear engagement during sequential shifts. DCT's are banned in Formula 1 racing, but the new "seamless shift" gearboxes are allowed, and there is still some overlap during a gear shift, combined with computerized control of clutch and fuel injection to smooth out the jerk on the drive train, while maintaining positive torque and power to the wheels.

SSG part 1.htm

SSG part 2.htm

Ah, I don't know anything about SSG so I didn't realize.

Fanatec 911 and Logitech G25. Those are the only mainstream clutch + shifter wheels I know of. The Logitech is about $250 and the Fanatec is $350.

Quote from JeffR :

Racing transmissions like the Hewland use dog ring type setups, which don't need synchros. During a shift on a racing transmission, there's a period in time where both gears are engaged at the same time, but it's not an issue, since thost transmissions aren't meant to last as long or be as smooth as a passenger car transmission:

A dog box spends time in neutral before the next gear, just like all constant mesh transmissions. A dog ring cannot be in contact with both gears at once. That would rip the internals like a nuclear explosion.

I'm assuming, of course, by "racing transmissions" you mean face dog gearboxes.

Here's a dog type sequential six. Have a look for yourself:

Last edited by MadCat360, Sun, 5 Jul 2009 04:28.

Quote from oqvist :

I would be very surprised if it was shipped sooner... Murphys law is constant

OZMGZ delayed until Jan '10.

lol I kid

Quote from tristancliffe :

Mainly because cars in real life are easy to control. Unless you're a gumby.

Ya. I love it when people start to think a sim is realistic because it's hard. Even racing cars are designed to be easy to control to a point. No good having a fast car if the driver can only get it 2 out of 5 times!