Of course the physics don't work. In order to lift a man's weight at that low airspeed the wings would have to be absolutely gigantic.
I doubt that thing could fly itself let alone with a man attached to it.
Far Cry 2 is the CryEngine that Ubisoft took and basically reworked. They called it DUNiA.
Probably all new proprietary engine for FC3.
I use both at the same time in real life, but not like some guys do in iRacing. Not during full threshold braking. Though I could see where that technique could be useful.
Ultimately a driver's opinion doesn't hold much more weight than any old sim racer - both are witness statements. What actually demonstrates what is right and what is wrong is data. Evidence. It's so freely available in iRacing that it simply staggers me these days that people who are serious about their assertions don't prove them with the mountains of data that is being generated for them. Or, at least, go into the data, find something odd, and then ask more questions about it.
Turns out not that many people care that much, and so only a few people actually go far enough to find out more about the model they are analyzing.
By the way, I have been very fascinated by Scott Liang's postings. He seems to be one of those people that formulates an idea having only done no or very minimal investigation and then runs with it, formulating more ideas on top of his already assumption-ridden ones. In the thread Jshort posted he actually claims throttle while braking makes "ground effects."
Ultimately a driver's opinion doesn't hold much more weight than any old sim racer - both are witness statements. What actually demonstrates what is right and what is wrong is data. Evidence. It's so freely available in iRacing that it simply staggers me these days that people who are serious about their assertions don't prove them with the mountains of data that is being generated for them. Or, at least, go into the data, find something odd, and then ask more questions about it.
Turns out not that many people care that much, and so only a few people actually go far enough to find out more about the model they are analyzing.
By the way, I have been very fascinated by Scott Liang's postings. He seems to be one of those people that formulates an idea having only done no or very minimal investigation and then runs with it, formulating more ideas on top of his already assumption-ridden ones. In the thread Jshort posted he actually claims throttle while braking makes "ground effects."
Last edited by MadCat360, .
So you're comparing new tire model improvements between builds using an old tire model car? There's your problem.
I really like the improvements in this build.
It's the same way in the real thing, which I've driven. You have to be very smooth releasing the brake, and releasing the throttle. The iRacing car is fairly close. It was closer with the very first release of the new tire model, but it's still pretty close now.
The school is basically trying to teach you to use one or the other pedal at all times. Too much time off either the brake or the gas will just make it looser and looser.
Works for me.
Updates for the Star Mazda, Solstice, DP, SR8, Mustang, and Jetta - new tire model on all those maybe?
Updates for the Star Mazda, Solstice, DP, SR8, Mustang, and Jetta - new tire model on all those maybe?
Patch won't be out till the 30th. Lame. I was hoping for NTM Star Mazda for the world cup.
Referrals only work for 3 months or more of paid time sadly.
In the first release of the NTM on it, it was great (except for the weird tire pressure stuff). But now it's terribad.
NTM on that one.
I haven't had much time with it but when I took it out for a few laps it seemed much more manageable than it used to be.
Sweet post Todd. That's really insightful. Dropping the longitudinal force to zero before the nose has a chance to come up really makes sense that it produces such a dramatic effect.
It's not quite as dramatic as iRacing seems to think it is though.
You might want to outline that stuff on the Skippy iR forum. I think they would like to hear it, although, based on how some of your other threads turned out, certain people in the community might not agree... there really are a ton of fanboys on there that won't even consider the fact that iRacing might have it wrong even slightly.
It's not quite as dramatic as iRacing seems to think it is though.
You might want to outline that stuff on the Skippy iR forum. I think they would like to hear it, although, based on how some of your other threads turned out, certain people in the community might not agree... there really are a ton of fanboys on there that won't even consider the fact that iRacing might have it wrong even slightly.I don't know for sure. I'm sure each car is a little different, kinda like the ARB settings are usually different from car to car.
Based on iRacing, it feels like the brake bias is around 60-62% front. But who the heck knows. The MX-5 runs a completely ludicrous 85% front in iRacing's baseline and it still feels like it's using the handbrake right as you turn in. As a result the thing stops like crap now. But at least it's controllable.
Anyway, looking at what Todd wrote (thanks for taking the time dude), it seems like it would be pretty far forward (for the car). I can't ever recall locking a rear tire in the Skippy. I've locked the right rear tire a few time going over the crest of turn 8's braking zone at Laguna in the Miata I drove this year, and also locking the rears going over a similar crest in the braking zone of turn 10 at Thunderhill.
The Skippy will oversteer any time you release the brakes too quickly. Doesn't really matter if you going from 40% to 20% brake pressure or from 10% to 0% - any fast release will cause the car to rotate quicker if you're cornering hard. My problems usually lie in the last 10% of the brake release, so that's why I usually get it in turn 2 at Laguna. The brake pressure you need to carry to the middle of the corner is just barely more than resting your foot on the pedal. At least, that's what it feels like after locking it down so hard during threshold braking. The brake pedal is incredibly stiff. Even so, using maybe 5% brake pressure, if you come off that pedal too fast, it will bite and try to spin you.
On the other hand, the Miata you can release as fast as you want and it won't have a problem. As can be seen in this video, I can snap off the brake as fast as I like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28ijoZwpmbU In reality it's a vacuum assisted pedal, so it's probably not as aggressive of a release as it looks, but still. I've never felt TBO from the Miata unless I just plain used too much brake, like you'd expect traditionally. In my first race this year I came upon a spin in turn 14 of Thunderhill, which is a heavy trail braking corner that needs a lot of rotation. I saw the spin and I increased brake pressure just a bit as a reaction, and I got way loose. If that was the Skippy I'd have developed a tremendous push.
All of the rear-weighted cars I've driven (basically two different generations of 911 and the Skippy) exhibited a sort of lock-up like effect when hard trail braking was used. It was worst in the Skippy. When I was doing braking drills in turn 11 at Laguna Seca, it was entirely possible to get a lock-up like turn-in effect without actually having locked tires! I could see the fronts were still rolling, yet even with hard braking (which would pivot my MX-5 like a top) the thing just wouldn't turn.
The brake gives some kind of stability to the Skippy. The more you use, the more pushy it gets. The car turns best with no throttle and no brake.
I feel this front-locked-but-not-locked effect is a by-product of rear weight bias somehow. And it must be what is producing TBO.
In this video, you can see TBO the first time I go through the Andretti hairpin at about 40 seconds. It is not a big moment but it happens just as I fully release the brake in the middle of the corner. Incidentally, you will also see power-on oversteer on the exit which I have always had trouble getting in iRacing. The real car drifts easily in 1st and 2nd gear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk-RECJHkxQ
That was also the first school I ever took in the car, so I was making those mistakes a lot and going slow.
Very, very much looking forward to hearing Todd's impressions on TBO.
On the Skippy, yes, the real one does the "trailing brake oversteer". The instructors just call it TBO. It is incredibly noticeable at Laguna Seca in turn 2. If you carry tons of brake as you go charging into the corner, you'll notice it as you get into the middle part after the first apex with the brake still applied. Snap off the brake at this point and you'll have a big moment.
I don't know exactly what causes it but it must be linked to the rear weight bias, because Porsche 911s do the same thing, just much less extreme.
And yeah, the Skippy was better during the first NTM release. Now it's really unpredictable. Almost random. Chronic understeer one moment, chronic, repeated snap oversteer the next - both with seemingly on or off characteristics.
iRacing's latest work is really hit-and-miss with me...
I don't know exactly what causes it but it must be linked to the rear weight bias, because Porsche 911s do the same thing, just much less extreme.
And yeah, the Skippy was better during the first NTM release. Now it's really unpredictable. Almost random. Chronic understeer one moment, chronic, repeated snap oversteer the next - both with seemingly on or off characteristics.
iRacing's latest work is really hit-and-miss with me...
For something like 10 years.
The $45,000 he got for winning that championship is probably the biggest boost to his career in cars, I'd say.
No one claimed that it could. Sims only accelerate the learning process (at current), as you said. I think we're arguing about how much, and in what areas.
Ultimately your and Intrepid's arguments have a fatal contradiction - you assert that the simulator needs more accuracy, yet you claim laser scanning is useless, even though it is very clearly a more accurate technique than recreating a track from pictures.
I think we'd all agree that the more accurate the simulation (in both user-end feel and technical accuracy of the simulation aspects itself), the more useful it is to the driver, correct?
The brain trying to figure out what is similar and what is different is specifically the reason why I use sims in the off-season. It causes me to recall what is correct about the car or track or whatever the situation is. That helps keep me sharp.
When I'm on-track doing a private test day, while I'm trundling down the straight, I'm already thinking about what can be done differently in the corner I just exited. If I use a simulator's starting point, if I find that it's not working for me, then I think about what the differences are and alter it in my mental programming. In iRacing, it's usually subtler things, like the alignment of the car. In Gran Turismo it's big things, like the camber characteristic in turn 9 being way off. I don't use my practice laps at Infineon in the Solstice for reference in my Miata at turn 8, for instance, because the car in iRacing behaves really differently in there and the line and pedal inputs are totally different. But I do use it for referencing turn 2 because the line and pedal inputs are very similar.
The brain is really good at doing this, especially when practiced and especially when it has lots of experience to draw upon. The run down to the next corner, even in an F1 car or a fast kart where the straights can be as short as a couple of seconds, is plenty of time to get everything analyzed and reprogrammed, even when drawing upon decades of experience in a vast array of cars and tracks. Tachypsychia is a scary thing for some people, but not for drivers - it's dead useful.
Last edited by MadCat360, .
My coach used to teach in Formula 1 and he likes the way I do Laguna.
You're assuming that I'm assuming. You're assuming I've done no work in real life in order to go faster. I'm offended.
I would ask you guys if you've ever had the opportunity to drive the very same car on the very same track as iRacing (or on any laser scanned circuit), but I have a feeling I already know what the answer is going to be...
I completely disagree.
The line I use in the Solstice at Laguna is identical at every point to my Spec Miata. The way you must dive down to turn 2 and let the car float out to the middle of the track in the middle of the corner - identical. The way you must charge into turn 5 with an early apex so that the banking will catch you and how the car practically turns in by itself there - identical. The way I lift for turn 6 and the way I float the car in, the reference points I use, and how you must get the inside tires as close as possible to the red hump to take advantage of the sloping rumble strip - identical. The way you line up the car in turn 8 with the smaller tree on the right and how you floor the throttle once you're pointed at it - identical. The skating feeling through turn 9 - identical.
When I first got to Skip Barber I was praised for my turn 6 immediately. To this day my coaches and competitors all love my turn 6. I learned that corner on iRacing and the more I drive it like I'm in iRacing the more praise I get. It's probably my best corner of the tracks I've driven, and it's mostly thanks to the time I put in on iRacing.
It is true that the track changes. But it remains largely the same. Deposits of sand in turns 2 and 8 are easy to spot and avoid or compensate for. The line will rubber in as the weekend progresses but it won't change the actual technique too much, maybe a foot less distance at turn in, or slightly earlier power application, but nothing too major. Of course there are differences. But they are small ones. If you want to be absolute and say that any imperfection (such as lack of rubber or dirt) means it's worthless to a driver beyond "turn left here", well, then I don't know what to say to you. It was iRacing that taught me how to use the rumble strips at Laguna to destabilize the car on the entry. It was iRacing that taught me to be gentle on the braking and trail braking in turn 5. It was iRacing that taught me where to look to get the car to float into turn 6 just right, even with a blind approach.
I could have learned these things in real life, certainly. But it would have taken more money and more actual track time that I could have used to develop something else. And consider this - I had been driving various virtual versions of Laguna for years before I got iRacing. They were not terribly accurate versions (Race07, TOCA 3, Gran Turismo, and Forza mostly). It was only when I got iRacing that I started to learn the previously mentioned specifics.
I don't praise iRacing much any more, but the tracks are pretty hard to fault.
My coach is very talented and he used a simulator to learn World of Outlaws 900 horsepower dirt oval sprint cars. He went out and blew everyone away in his first season, on and off track.
A driver who doesn't take advantage of simulators, for whatever capacity, is a fool.
Last edited by MadCat360, .
Care to explain why you think that?
I used iRacing to learn Laguna Seca before I did the racing school there (in the Skippy car). It taught me a lot. If I drive the Solstice there it's pretty much identical to the real thing in my Spec Miata. The only things that are different are a couple rumble strips (which were changed in the years after the track was made), the extra runoff they put in turn 2 last year, and the placement of the turn 11 number boards (which move around with the wind anyway).
Very similar story for Infineon Raceway too.
The C.A.R.S. thread on iR forums is absolutely hilarious. All the fanboys and haters are going at it.
Nice! I like the new theme. Categories are good too.
Awesome idea for a site! I submitted some of my Spec Miata videos.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG