Ohh ok excited to test this out soon

Quote from Scawen :

Yes, I've put that in F12. When a GTR alternative configuration is selected then the tyre dimensions are shown.

By the way, I have added alternative config for XFR and UFR as well so it's consistent.

Each tyre in alternative config can go down to around 75% of the original width. That is 245mm for XR GTR and 165mm for UFR / XFR.

Awesome! What are you thinking for offset/track width?

And I agree with you 100% give people what they want but also stay within reason of some Thing realistic.

My point always has been LFS tire model does not replicate real life characteristics for drifting that’s why I always thought 10 to 20 mm tires would match it more. If you watch professional Drifters YouTube videos they always say Use a wider tire because it will last longer and you have more variety in grip levels. They even talk about running a 265 on a 250 hp car, but turn up the air pressure so It can slide easier. You don’t want to under power the tires, but you want that longevity.

Also yes I think Insim should have tire width enforcements. Makes the playing field more level. We will need weeks of testing though to find that right configuration for eligibility on servers depending on type of server.

Quote from Scawen :

Currently in my version the XRR tyres can go down to 255mm section width.

That is 7 notches down from the new default alternative config tyre width of 325.

There is a reason not to exceed 7 notches, so I'd prefer not to exceed 7 notches if possible.

I half expect that now that I've expressed a limit, the most important thing in the world will become 245mm width tyres.

Haha nah that’s ok you right

I forgot you are trying to merge it into 1 configuration you said, 7 is more than plenty. I just thought you would skip some tires, but that’s not the case

No matter what we say I don’t think 245 in GTR cars is needed

Quote from Scawen :

Current plan is a combination of the new configuration and also the adjustable wheels. Simplified to make it easily usable and to finish the patch as soon as possible.
Here's what I've come round to:
Alternative configuration starts with very slightly adjusted tyre size, then allows a single new adjuster to reduce tyre section width in 10mm steps. Tyre aspect ratio is automatically adjusted to approximately preserve tyre diameter. Offset (spacing) is automatically added in 5mm steps to keep the wheel's outer edge in the same place. Maximum allowed value for maximum lock (XRR and FZR only) is automatically calculated from the offset and wheel width.

This sounds great!, but the question is what will be the largest tire sizes and the offset spacing? Like I recommended before for drifting, cars require wider front track to help with high speed and high angle drifting (helps with higher caster, contact patch of front tires, and more camber correction when rolling, also Ackerman)

XRR ranging from a 245-265 front and 265-285 rear I think would be right 3 options per side
Current XRR alternative track is 1.69 front and 1.62 rear I think getting around 1.8-2.0 front track for drifting would be desired. For racing stay within those parameters 0.1 different max.

So yeah 3 different tire sizes front and rear, and allowing them to be with in 20mm from each other for GTR CARS ONLY

Last edited by martin18, Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:43.

Thank you Scawen I’ll do some hot laps as well with our teams this week end. The I’m also reading up on the other racing patch forums to see any additional info

Quote from Scawen :

I think the ideal thing would be if I could get this patch finished and get back to the development version where there is tyre physics to work on.

It's not possible to make a perfect drift car by changing a few values on a racing car in a flawed tyre physics model. It's not going to happen, because impossible things can't happen.

I don't think there's too much point arguing about 10mm which makes such a tiny difference. I believe people were saying (as I found myself) that the FZR was faster than the XRR. I hoped to improve that with this update, by making such a tiny change to the XRR's tyre width, doing the same at front and rear so as not to affect the car's balance.

I am aware that both of these cars have illegal rear tyre width compared with Formula D. But they aren't purpose built drift cars. This is an update to allow people to drift our racing cars, as requested.

But I described this all in a previous post so why am I going through it again?

Thank you for your input I’ve been trying to back you up on everything you just said. When you decided to give us back that extra 10 mm in the Drift community and discord we were all saying hooray we made a change we got what we wanted no one is upset in the discord channels

Last edited by martin18, Sat, 13 Feb 2021 11:16.

Quote from ELDemon :

Scawen please take a look online and possible make the tires more realistic compared to other real life builds.

Lets talk about feelings, maybe the tires did help with grip but they only made issues with the steering, it's possible to just turn out of drift with how much grip is in this thing and you can do that sitting at full power..... not realistic at all...

He is currently working on a new tire physic so just let him work on that for the development version. You are the only one who’s having this issue you need to test more your settings need to test more your set up. Everybody else who I spoke with was happy the tires are wider

Quote from ELDemon :

?????????????????

Go read LFS first power to weight ratio of the GTR cars then go put that information in the link you sent and you will see it’s not the same

Also not only the tire physics are different in LFS over real life. To match formula drift cars not only the tires are different, but also suspension geometry will give them more grip these cars are optimize for drifting. I mentioned to Scawen making the front wheel track wider since it will help with high speed angle and grip. You need to understand this game is not the same as real life yet due to tire physics and tire models. Also we can’t adjust vehicle Suspension as much as we need it to make it a proper drift car yet the vehicle needs to sit higher and needs more front camber limits (12 degrees max)

Quote from ELDemon :

Calculating PWR
It's very easy to calculate a power-to-weight ratio. Simply divide the power output of a vehicle by its weight. For example, if you have a car that weights 2000 pounds and has 250 hp, the PWR will be as follows:

250 / 2000 = 0.125 hp for every pound of car.

https://goodcalculators.com/power-to-weight-ratio-calculator/
© 2015-2021 goodcalculators.com 490

I knew you were going to send that link if you put an XRR info it does not come out to what the power to weight ratio is in LFS

Quote from ELDemon :

i just gave you details. 3000lbs 100bhp vaughn's mustang

There is more than just horsepower and weight to calculate power to weight ratio. Also you are not Considering the downforce the GTR cars have and the weight distribution

How can you not want them to keep them equal they are in the same class and also they have about the same power to weight ratio so they are supposed to be close contenders even in racing. Even in racing the FZR was a faster car just because it has more grip not because it has more power. You can adjust power by restricting air in the info tab if you need to by the way.

Well you are the only one then because the way the tire physics are in LFS they are not realistic enough yet. Find out the real Power to weight ratio of formula drift cars I bet you they are around what the XRRS which is around 470 I believe

Quote from R-to :

ohh, i tought that road super is a semislick tyre and road normal is a just normal street tyre.

[/quote][/quote]

Road supers don’t last as long and don’t have the physics most LFS drifters like, hence why no one uses road supers on XRT for common drift setup. Road super is almost like running a Toyo R888, or Advan Neova AD08 semi slick mainly for racing super low tire wear really great grip for hot laps etc. No one runs these tires to drift in real life

Last edited by martin18, Sat, 13 Feb 2021 09:50.

Quote from ELDemon :

why are we running such big tires on a car that has half the horsepower of a drift spec car, according to the webs Vaughn runs `

`The car sits on 18-inche wheels wrapped in Nitto NT05 tires sized 295/35R18 on the rear and 275/35R18 on the front. ``

Its V-8 engine delivers a total of 845 horsepower (not 490bhp)

Personally, I liked the alternative better.

The tires seem way too grippy

Because
1. Formula drift run semi slicks, and lfs don’t have those tire physics yet.
2. He might have that much power but his power to weight ratio is similar to XRR those cars all over 3000 Lbs, XRR under 2500 Lbs
3. If you have too much grip run road normal and add more rear psi if want to be a bit looser, also down force will affect grip

Quote from Scawen :

Thanks for the feedback.

So for now the suggestion I have is to simply increase the XRR front and rear tyres by 10mm each. This makes the car fractionally faster and more competitive with the FZR. I've tested it and to me the balance feels OK and I managed to lap 6 tenths faster than the other day. I won't change the spacing. So the outer edge of the wheels are 5mm further out.

Scawen thank you for listening to our feedback and taking in consideration anything that we have said. Thank you for also attempting to balance the cars out on a realistic level without going to crazy with modifying the vehicles. I think on behalf of the Drift community we would take the compromise of only the extra 10mm F/R tires of XRR, since that way it felt pretty good and more evenly matched. Maybe next time around when this development version is done we consider more configurations and more adjustments. I think ending it there for test patches and making that the official version will be ok for now, since we are all pretty excited for the development version of night mode, track updates, new lighting and shadows, tire physics, and extra layout editing objects (fingers crossed I hope we get new object on new development version since it will make it more real for users making rally/AX/drift tracks. Apex, maybe grass, new concrete objects and more road signs) We don’t want to slow you down we just want more. Sorry we been needy and stubborn haha.

Thank you again Developers.

Scawen I've done more research and more testing with other players too. Reasons why WE think we need 3 configurations for FZR and XRR are:

1.(FZR is a drift Perfect Drift car, too fast for XRR) FZR being a car we will also use for drifting, other players have used it a lot, and there is proof of that. The FZR is a good drift contender vehicle and it doesn't compare with XRR. XRR is too slow due to rear tires being too skinny since there is no weight in the rear it just lights them up and your rear wheel speed is just always over 100 MPH after 1 min of drifting (even with very low rear tire pressure, under 20psi) RX/Drift FZR has 285 rear tires with more weight in the rear, causing it to have more grip. we need 275 rears in XRR drift Version

2.(Too much power for the tires)XRR feels great to drift right now with current Patch U20/U21 if you have around 300-400 BHP with 25%-15% Air Restriction due to having skinnier tires and narrower front track. WE believe if the vehicle has 490BHP we should be able to use all of it. Yes you can use all of it with Road super while drifting, but Road Super's don't have the tire physics us drifter like, they feel twitchy and the life of the tire is unrealistic for what we want.

3.(XRR Drift Mode needs wider front track) if you look at cars with wise fab, angle kits, drift competition cars, they all have wider front tracks with more camber than rear. Now that we have 60 degrees lock it would feel right with wider front track and more front camber so it helps with parallel steer and front tire contact during high speed and massive drift angle (picture below) BY THE WAY THE FRONT TRACK DONT NEED TO POKE OUT ON XRR DRIFT CONFIGURATION

4.(XRR vs FZR Racing and Drifting speed) We noticed FZR no matter the track, it is 1-2 seconds faster than XRR with Current U20/U21 around any track (using Road tires). With more driver skills and setup testing, I'm sure we can get that margin even bigger. Since the FZR feels faster, and its a bit harder to control, It usually just pulls from the XRR on the straights. XRR Hard track/GT/GT2 class (the name that you end up naming for Skinnier and Road tire class becomes).

5.(3 Configurations) We believe there should be different configuration over Drift, GTR class/Default and the GT2/Hard track/street class. Since GTR cars with slicks already perfect, allowing us to drift with GTR cars we appreciate, but they are not at the same level and they still need some tweaking. DRIFT CARS ARE SETUP VERY DIFFERENTLY THEN RACE CARS; WHEEL OFFSETS, TIRE WIDTH, WHEEL TRACK, STEERING ANGLE, AND CAMBER ANGLE. THE BIGHER THE POWER THE MORE ADJUSTMENT NEEDED TO MAKE IT FEEL BETTER TO THE DRIVER.

6.(Other add ons to consider) We liked the more tire in the rear, but also we like the skinnier tire on XRR when using 300-400 hp since we can tandem/chase XRT and FZ5 at a proper pace and about same tire wear. (picture below all running road normal)

Developers, again highly appreciate the game for the past 12 years (been playing since 2009) I know most of us want more and more from you guys, such as more cars, more tracks, more objects, more tires, track updates, etc. You guys are working with what you got without having to go crazy creating new things, and if it means allowing to use other vehicles in other classes/new classes then I think lets do it right and please add more configurations and may be even tire size choices.

By the way what is mip_bias?

Maybe 3 modes
GTR (original slicks version)
Drift (current FZR, 255front 275/285 rear XRR)
Hard track/Rally (current U20)

Last edited by martin18, Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:44.

The offset changes were great👍. FZR does feel like it may be even the best drift car in the game right now, no doubt in my mind and to some others I played with the past few nights as well.

We all have been grateful that you even considered any of this, But we also want more cars and if it mean just 2 GTR cars for drifting then I believe they should feel more equal to each other at battle. We want to be able to be side by side in different cars and drift together.

Others and I tried rallying all the GTR cars that was fun too still testing there on setups. I’ll try out time attack the GTR cars and see the difference and test the performance and feel of all cars and see what changes could help it be more equal.

Quote from Flotch :

The reason is the weight balance : more weight at the rear means you need more tire width to have a better natural balance.
On the paper for XRR, having 275mm rear tires for a 1100kg car with 50/50 weight balance does not seem 'little', even if the power is almost reaching 500hp.

Just so we are clear U29/U20 has 265 rear in XRR right? And u17/u18 had 275 rear?
The way I see is my Mazda Mx5 has 215 rear tires 200 tread wear tires and that car weights roughly 1040KG with roughly 130BHP and it can spin the wheels. A car with roughly same weight with 4 times the power in drifting needs at least that much tire 275-285.
If the GTR cars weight 1360 KG (3000LBs) then we can go down to 255/265 because that would put it with the drift comp cars from the past.

Last edited by martin18, Tue, 9 Feb 2021 11:59.

Quote from Scawen :

It does make sense, because the XRR is front heavy and the FZR is rear heavy. So their tyre requirements are very different. The XRR (standard config) was based on a real racing car and we got the tyre sizes from it and they were equal front and rear. This new config has larger rear than front. Remember when cornering the inside front is quite unloaded so the outer front tyre takes nearly all that front weight on its own. It is intentional that the new configs are less grippy than the default ones.

When testing U18 with new configs, I found the front tyres of the XRR were overheating and I felt there was too much understeer. The FXO GTR was too fast compared with the others. So I reduced the XRR rear tyre widths by 10mm to improve the balance of the XRR. And FXO reduced by 10mm front and rear. It seemed more balanced to me and I believed it would also help drifting and rallycross.

It didn’t help at all for drifting reducing tire width. I do see what you mean for grip driving on XRR It did under steer a bit but also I think that had to do with aero and brake pressure I found a perfect sweet spot at 68% with 1060 brake pressure to be just about perfect, doesn’t lock up wheels as easy, good brake modulation (on pedals), and good trail braking. You can drift FZ5 and XRT side by side no problem, FZ5 only faster on straights. FZR just dust the XRR now no matter what you are doing. The grip levels of XRR now don’t feel good anymore we noticed las night with U19/U20. Maybe 255 front 275/285 rear for XRR to help under steer and to add more rear grip/speed

Quote from PopnLochNessMonster :

Congratulations, you ruined it.
What do you mean you "dont like fact that tires in XRR in drift spec are wider on rear than in front"? The car was fine the way it was in U18. If you're looking for more front grip, I recommend turning front tire PSI down.

But now the rear tires are too small in the rear for XRR. It does not make much sense that FZR and XRR are the same horsepower, but have different rear tire sizes. If the XRR had the same rear tire sizes as FZR (285 rear) it would be much better for keeping up with each other.

These are the realistic tire sizes for cars with this amount of horsepower.

100% on this!!! Scawen running same tracks as U18 on now U20 and it doesn't feel the same or as predictable, tire wear is way too fast now (U18 was already not enough with 275 XRR rear) yesterday was nearly perfect, addition of H pattern and handbrake adjustment made this nearly perfect! 285 rear, 265 front for a car that has a 460 BHP/TON sounds more realistic. The real solution is to give option for tire sizes, but to keep it simple go back to wider tires in the front & rear on XRR.
PS. FZR feels much faster than XRR and XRR has 3 more BHP/TON

@Scawen and other Developers thanks again for the drift upgrades more variety is welcomed!
Can we get more layout objects added please, things like: apex, more signs, more concrete shapes and colors, more chalk options, more real life track objects etc.
We noticed we like the high speed stuff now, so more high speeds layouts will be made