Quote from srdsprinter :

Everything you're saying is fine and true; however, nothing you say actually justifies the 15kg FZR pentalty. (also, you refer to FXR when I believe you mean XRR).

Essentially, pre-patch the cars admittedly (by Scawen's own admission) were not balanced, and thus the several balancing changes were enacted to smooth the field.

With the added gearbox modeling, as well as tire changes, patch Y went about creating a level playing field, from the source. The XRR's fuel consumption, tire wear, and sequential gearbox are there to counter the FZR's 1-lap speed.

Exactly as unfounded as you claim this discussion is, We are saying the balance is wrong as-is.

As the ballast is not enough to majorly disrupt the racing, it will go unchanged, and it is an advantage the XRR will enjoy throughout the season.

No, I didn't mix up any cars. The FXR was seriously quick at blackwood, although it didn't show as much in our league, while the XRR had major problems exiting the now lower speed corners that BL GP is composed of with its turbo lag w/o the advantage of awd. I'm saying you guys have seen two races, with pretty inconclusive results and are worried about the sky falling. We (or I at least) have incomplete data so far as to whether or not the new blackwood is a good representative track for balancing and I know kyn isn't a good representation of your average track.

Last edited by rcpilot, Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:26. Reason : Rushed leaving the office fixes

Quote from Dimitry Gerards :

Just because the WR is half a sec faster doesn't mean the race pace is half a sec faster.... reason: FZR is using more fuel then the XRR...

So... if both cars are racing a 1 hour race, the FZR needs to carry more fuel then the XRR... is thus heavier then the XRR and will be a bit slower in comparison. Probably still faster then the XRR, but not half a sec per lap.

Not much heavier. The gap due to fuel is only a couple tenths per minute on an hour long stint's worth of fuel, and that's at the start of the race. As the stint continues that gap will decrease down to zero as the two fuel loads come closer together.

Now, in general I honestly don't see where this discussion is coming from right now. We've had two races so far, the fxr had a severe advantage going into bl gp, and the fzr a small advantage. This race the fxr couldn't handle the high speed nature of the course, and the fzr's had awesome quali pace but pretty much spot on race pace with the xrr's. You can't just look at two cars' power to weight ratios and compare how they'll perform on a track, there are far more variables than that. (Can't even really work with the current wr figures right now considering they're relatively new and their accuracy is not the level of precision required to look at race paces.) You can look however at how CD and us have been performing relative to each other considering we were in the same car last year and pretty evenly matched. And those figures say that there's nothing to be alarmed about yet. CD had a good 1st race and a bad 2nd race, we had a bad 1st race and a good 2nd race.

Last edited by rcpilot, Wed, 9 Apr 2008 20:08.

Quote from racer hero :

LazLow, that is you my friend, sorry. They are very closely matched.

Yeah, that's a pretty useless result considering there's no way in hell they're that off balance.

Making a game takes a looooot of time, especially as the game grows older and more complex and one change might mean several changes in different 'layers' of the application. If you don't expect this kind of development length with a 3 person dev team you're highly mistaken. Me, I don't really care. I'm here for sim racing and LFS is currently the best product out there to achieve that goal. As long as that's still true I'll probably still be here.

If you're bored mix it up a bit, I can't stand public racing anymore with always doing the same cars/tracks over and over and over. I didn't really start learning what kinda variety LFS had until I started league racing where you get a good spread of everything. You don't really have to make sure you're 'awesome' to join most leagues, just find the lap you can drive at a good consistent pace with minimal chance of a mistake. Do that over and over and you'll find some good competition and some good positions. (And never drive beyond your personal limits, or at the edge of those limits for too long, consistency is king in a longer race.)

I'm actually a bit surprised at how well the fzr and xrr are matched up now. Pre-y with all the extra weight the fzr had to carry it really hurt it in the corners and it had to make that up on the straights, now they're both pretty even in cornering and straightline speed.

And the quali results vs. race results are kind of indicative of where the FZR hurts now. With the sequential vs. gated box we got toasted in quali while having a slight advantage in race pace. And although the XRR's still generally lighter on its tires, it's not a walk in a park getting it set up right, especially with the new physics. There are major balance compromises between what I'd optimally like to run and what I ran for the race to get good race pace.

And on top of it all, from the LOTA results last year this is an advantage XRR track in the race, just ever so slightly, but it's there. But that was pre-patch y.

Last edited by rcpilot, Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:00.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Gratz CoRe! And stop being so dam nationalist, whats wrong with europeans?

We have enough trouble with the Canadians.

Haven't actually raced against f1rst much now that I think of it. But, I'm usually silently rooting for you guys as you lap me in your gt1.

Quote from burnsy1882 :

alright, ease it up a bit here. i'll take the blame, as i was the PC at the back of the field. since it was my first time helping the admins out, i didn't really know what to do, and TBH, the incident cleared itself up after ~10s. i was also going "by the book", so didn't see anybody flipped or anything, but now after hindsight, should have said something.

<-- gets out the torches and pitchforks and passes them around

Time for a good old fashioned angry mob. :arge::bananadea :eek:

Quote from srdsprinter :

No way. Sorry, you're wrong. The admins should have spread their vision of the field and not been worrying about the tracker. If they couldn't another lap under SC would've worked fine. Sadly they were not, so we can try and figure what to fix for next time.

The tracker's kind of required, but it would've probably been smart to have us go around another lap instead of getting it sorted just in time.

You're essentially saying "the admins are responsible for watching out forthe leaders, everyone else doesn't matter / fend for yourselves."

No, I corrected you when you disregarded the fact that the leaders are just as important to watch as mid-field. A wreck is less likely up front, but if you want them to watch the entire field and admin everything on their own at the start of the race, they need to watch the front too.

If something happens at the back, as was the case, it is missed watching the front.
If watching the back, even a leader spinning would be seen.

If a leader takes himself out during the start, does that warrant a safety car? How would the admins know the facts surrounding the incident if all they see is a spun-out/wrecked car as the field goes by?

Yes, these guys could have scrambled to vent and told the admins, but they assumed the admins were watching the field, not both fixated on the leaders.

It's standard practice to give the admins heads up. I don't know why you guys have this idea in your head that the admins are omniscient. Part of being successful in league racing is being well organized and working with the rules to your favor. If we were involved in an incident like this, someone from our team would be announcing it to the admins within ~30 seconds.

Either way, there is a lot of things that could have been improved in how the admins handled the start of the race, and I think we can all work to better the procedures to ensure everyone (even the mid-back pack) gets a fair shot at a clean start.

Agreed, but some of this is quite unrealistic in implementation.

The admins cannot keep track of everything on track. If anything this is more of a 'what can we admins do better' issue than a rule issue, but in the end there is no perfect solution using the resources available and as such it's a requirement in this form of racing to point out rule infractions when you see them.

Most of us on the team have multiple forms of contact open with the admins in every race, especially an endurance event. And not just in leagues where our teammates are helping admin. There shouldn't be a 'scramble' to go tell the admins, there should just be a 'hey, look at this, such and such happened' as you casually go to your chat program etc.

Last edited by rcpilot, Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:27.

Quote from srdsprinter :

- Admins admitedly weren't prepared
- Admins were watching leaders (mid-back pack would be much more sensible)

It is Not the drivers responsibility to call the SC out.

The procedure needs to be evaluated, and revised. My quick fixes:

SC - Pull off and park Before Green. Tab to view Last Place Car. (after clean start 1/2 lap, return to pit stall)

Other admin(s) watch mid-pack, as obviously the need is not to find any onus of blame at this point, but to become aware of any endangering situations.

It's not the responsibility of the drivers to call the SC out, but it is rather unhelpful to come back many hours later and complain about something (non-constructively just asking for blood for the most part) that the admins had no clue about that cannot be repaired way after the fact. Plus, it's standard practice in these leagues to bring things to the attention of the admins asap if something's out of whack and they haven't noticed.

The fact that none of the teams did report anything substantial at the time is rather telling. If no one immediately said 'Wait a minute, that crash happened before the green flag' and they were even involved in it, you can't seriously blame the admins for not noticing the nature of the wreck.

On the other hand, the admins could've been a bit more organized, but the best spot to watch the ENTIRE field is from a tv cam from the front. In the future multiple admins could be more coordinated to watch multiple parts of the pack, but you're still limited by algorithms that decide the view of the tv cam. Because of this, the 2 admins available (at least at the time during this race) just cannot reliably physically cover an entire strung out pack during a rolling start.

Last edited by rcpilot, Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:47.

Quote from MR_B :

I would have called for a red flag. Or safety car.

Would've could've should've. This is a little blunt, but the fact is that none of the admins properly saw what happened and none of the teams involved brought the true nature of it to the attention of the admins until way too late. Unless there's a specific rule change to discuss here, there's not much to discuss at all. This isn't like a real race where you have many sets of eyes on the entire track at all times, we have just a few with a relatively limited viewpoint due to the nature of the game. If you think something's gone wrong and the admins haven't noticed, the onus is on you as always to bring this to the admin's attention in a timely fashion.

I sometimes take a rubber band and set the kitchen 'flexi-sprayer' thing to on with it and point it where people stand to use the sink. I did have an accidental friendly fire incident with this before though.

Last edited by rcpilot, Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:12.

Real name: Corey Green
Age: 22
Gender: Male
Where I live: Ohio, USA
Education: Few split up years of college (Didn't go well)
Favourite subject from school: Pretty much anything semi-related to engineering
Work?: Web development/design/maintenance
Marital status: single
My favorite music genre: Classic rock mostly, but pretty much anything with a good proper instrumental section and a non-abrasive singer (high school band geek, aka listen to some classical, folk, blues, etc.)
My favorite bands/music artists: Zeppelin/Floyd/Tool
My favorite movies: A Clockwork Orange, Alien(s), 5th Element
Favorite Authors: Isaac Asimov, Orson Scott Card, Gordon R. Dickson
Favorite Pastimes: LFS, computer tweaking and coding , real driving, fps'ing
Favorite car : Mine ('84 supra on its last legs )

Jeez, reading this is kinda disturbing. I swear I have a real life, I just prefer the geek stuff.

I often almost get rammed up the back (well, sometimes not almost) on the entry into a corner by people who are significantly slower than me. It's definitely too easy to be too aggressive into a corner while thinking you're the 'bestest driver evar' only to watch the car you just road up on go flying up the road on exit. If you're continuously powersliding in on entry or missing your apex, you're trying to enter the corner too fast. Try to find the sweet spot where you can keep your tires at a constant murmer both front/rear throughout the entire corner. Learning how to create lines/braking points comes with experience, but it definitely helps to watch a truly fast driver go at it. But keep in mind that if you want to maintain their kind of entrance speed, you have to duplicate each one of their control inputs with precise levels and timing. So it's better to aim a few percent lower in speed.

One thing to aim for is trying to find the exit lines (not apex speeds exactly) on the corners with straights after them where you can pretty much whip your car's throttle straight open. You may find yourself taking a much different approach on entry in an attempt to maintain straighter lines on exit.

If you want to get more technical, download f1perfview and output raf files from a 'smooth' wr lap and run your own laps for comparison. You'll probably be surprised at how aggressive the wr lap is with throttle, plus it really points out differences in your lines.

And as to the actual topic...
It's often times useful to use curbing, but often times it just upsets your car. Generally, the higher the load you have to put on your car while going over the curb, the less you'll want to use it. But of course that varies with the geometry of the curb itself.

Last edited by rcpilot, Fri, 14 Mar 2008 02:26.

I'm not that much of a fan of drifting, but a league or event is a hard thing to run. (Most seem not to succeed past a first season if they make it past their first event even.) Either start your own or start bitching enough to the people who care about what you think should be done. If at first you don't succeed, try try again, but don't come back to the wrong people and complain. :P

Quote from Cappy333 :

That's not much for a I-4 600 cc FSAE car. What engine was your team using?

honda f4i iirc, was with them 2004 and besides a custom intake/exhaust and a remapping they didn't do much to the engine.

Just step away from it a bit, LFS isn't your life. :P I get very burnt out at the end of every league season considering that's ~80% practice/20% racing and for the couple months in between major leagues I usually rarely touch LFS.

Quote from adulterated :

LMFAO xaotic...you try to come across as if you are not a part of this immature and highly undesirable group, then decide to come post with a statement about glory holes. I knew the forum troll term fit you highly well. That just goes to to further highlight the similarties between these highly undesirable players and your ownself.

Face it, you are an undesirable.

That's big talk from someone who'll come up with a completely absurd fact, provide no proof for it, and repeatedly insult those that provide proof otherwise and ask for your proof.

Quote from Cappy333 :

Mattgignac, can you confirm that the 64 hp (or is it 68?) was measured at the rear wheels? I wonder if the developers would fix the MRT5 after all this time.

It sounds about right for one of these cars at the wheels. Ours from about the same year with no turbo did 50 hp at the wheels measured at competition.

Quote from Gil07 :

IRC knows the winner already, and it's the only one that deserves winning anyway...

Nakki 4evah

It's really not that hard to lap or get lapped. I have to deal with both ends of it and I usually don't have a problem. (Getting lapped through MoE gt2.) Just show a bit mutual respect, often times you end up hurting yourself more attempting to run side by side with traffic you shouldn't be racing. Don't dive bomb a lapped car unless you've been given no choice through accidental circumstance or a completely ignorant blue flagee, and don't do unpredictable things when getting lapped. Concentrate on your line and your line only while leaving some space in the right spot, see way too many people lose focus and in turn lose their car in lapping situations (often taking out the other guy with them.)

/Edit - And MoE's lapping circumstances are a little different with dual classes. But when you're getting lapped ~2 times a lap you see pretty much every circumstance there is, and I think the philosophy of mutual respect and minimal total time loss among both parties still holds. Just as there's an art to lapping, there's also an art to getting lapped that involves more than just holding your line and letting the lapper do the work.

And the bit that someone was mentioning about more problems lapping between fast/slow drivers seems to hold true cross class. The fast gt1 drivers have no problems lapping the fast gt2 drivers, but tend to have collisions with the slower gt2 drivers. And vice versa when it comes to getting lapped. AKA it's not really a matter of one person being too aggressive, but more a matter of two varied sets of skills colliding together. (In a situation where you're far more practiced at competing with drivers of your own level.)

/Edit 2 (paraphrased irc ramblings)
Realized this wasn't the most cohesive post, but I could go on for much longer about specific circumstances and ideas of what to do. What it basically comes down to is, why sit in front of a lapper losing them 1-2 seconds when they're right behind you on the entrance to a complex corner section when you could back off and lose 1/2 a second. But on the other hand, why divebomb lapped traffic on the entrance to a corner section right before a straight like blackwood's t1. You'll probably lose you both 1-2 seconds when you could just wait behind them and lose 1/2 a second. Just general stuff like that. Not really things that could be written into rules, but if people are smart about it they can make lapping much more 'pleasant' and take significantly less time overall for both parties.

Last edited by rcpilot, Wed, 27 Feb 2008 06:32.

Quote from farcar :

If LFS was a driving simulator I would agree with you.
However it's a racing simulator and there is no need for an automatic transmission because nobody would race a car with one in real life.

Apparently you've never been to the land of automatics. (US) Most of the people into driving fast have manuals, but in a world of 90% automatics quite a few pop up.

Overall, nothing has really stood out of me, but I wouldn't rank my design as among the best. (Trying again without the clock dial after mucking around with it some more.)

So far this is my favorite though. (Besides the random radial gradiant in the bottom left.)

Quote from ZORER :

failing to put it into practice?
that's a matter of time. even if i had enough time i'd not spend more than 10 minutes into a contest which "kids" will decide who wins and who loses. i did my tries, spent some more time to tell my thoughts and hope someone really do something.I know one or two of them are not bad designs but most keep doing the same things. Still that infinite icon is the most popular thing on most of the logos...which is really bad imo.

Hate to break it to you, but 'kids' decide who win and lose in the real world. You tend not to work for experts, you work for people who want your expertise.

Quote from The Moose :

Cars ain't the problem, it's the lack of tracks that is causing me to loose interest

Most pickup racers tend to race the same 3 or 4 cars/tracks. I've gotten used to pretty much all of the tracks forward/reverse through leagues, and I'm getting a bit bored with 'em, but...