Quote from Eclipsed :

...and still cheaper than iRacing...

haha only just my man, only just...

https://youtu.be/3yrr29g67JY?t=78

Cheap racing, not cheap, but the most cheap

Cargame.nl! Wowzers, long time I saw that name.

I was a massive, massive fan of LFS. Unfortunately it's never really progressed beyond a hobby for the developers. Such a shame.

I really miss CTRA and Sam unfortunately ran out of steam to keep it going. It was really the peak of LFS and has since not been equaled.

Some of my best online driving has been in LFS. These day's i've the money to actually go on a track. So now I get real time action on the circuit, lots more fun, way more expensive.

Quote from Scawen :

yeager, please have a go on the test patch and let us know if it works well.

To attack or insult us you should start another thread. You are way off topic here.

Indeed, Sorry, I won't even bother posting another thread. Delete these.

NOTE : THIS DOES NOT CONTAIN NEW TYRE PHYSICS / VW SCIROCCO / ROCKINGHAM

Unless the above changes to reflect some significant improvements, the test patch isn't worth looking at.

Quote from blackbird04217 :

yeager, updating out of DirectX 9 is not going to magically supply better graphics or anything that LFS will gain from. I don't understand your point and this thread is not for complaining. Of course your posts and mine will likely be cleaned up, but you're complaining about something so silly.

I'm glad to see the development is continuing, and yes it might be slow, but I will certainly continue trying out the new developments, and also continue waiting for more.

Unlike the person above this post, you make very valid points. You are right, compiling to the latest version of DirectX isn't that important. What I was really venting about was the amazing lack of development in this software. Anyone trying to defend the progress so far is insane. This game had potential and it's stalled for YEARS. Unfortunate, but true.

Delete these posts. Delete my account. I don't care. LFS is great, but dead.

Quote from Bose321 :

Wow someone is a sourpuss.

What's not decent about the current release of the game?

Ahh man, don't try and drag me into this. Your argument here is like saying... "What's wrong with using a 1mb cable modem with your single core PC". The current game is great, but lack of development, i.e. no significant release of new content which the community has been asking for in YEARS has resulted in many people just not playing anymore. This game is dead, the development model and the communication skills of its developers is horrific.

Compare LFS with something like Minecraft. Minecraft, like LFS, has a simple yet amazingly effective gameplay. LFS has excellent race quality. I've had races in LFS that reflect real life situations. It was quickly addictive. Unfortunately where it failed was in the developers taking advantage of the initial rise in interest and use that to give the community what it wanted.

1. New content, new features, often.
2. Ability to design/modify tracks.

Sure you can modify the game to create fun cruise servers, but come on. Please...

LFS had massive potential that was barely realized and has a small following of racers. Such a shame. This game could be so much better. But it has been limited by lack of interest and poor choices from its development team.

And after reading that post and trying to understand why on earth your development model is constrained in such a way, I realize why this game is doomed. Your poor bugger, what a pointless project you've ended up working on. Feel free to ban me forever, even being remotely associated with this mess is embarrassing to me.

Quote from Scawen :

Assuming you aren't deliberately trying to wind me up just for the fun of it, I'll post you a link to explain the very good reasons to stick with DirectX 9:
https://www.lfsforum.net/showt ... php?p=1857760#post1857760

I rather you would spend your time actually getting a decent release of the game out. Actually, don't bother. I've not touched LFS in years because of an utter lack of development on your part. I'll let you continue at your "not wanting to be part of the corporate games world" pace...

Now supports DirectX 9? That was last updated in August 2004. Current version of DirectX is 12... Wow, LFS really does develop at a rate that is slower than waiting for tar pitch to drip...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_drop_experiment

Fantastic! Thanks for the post. I wonder if Generally 2 will actually be released before LFS has another update?

Quote from Intrepid :

It's not about what you or I want, it's about a few guys trying to create something really special. There's nothing worse for example than a band having to write songs they know 'will sell' because of pressure from the market place. I think it's FANTASTIC that the developers have enough freedom in this world to work as they please and not get stressed to **** working 9-5, having to hire people and take on additional responsibilities. That should be celebrated and NOT criticised.

if it takes 10 years, so be it, so what? None of us are financially invested or married to LFS. We are customers. We bought an amazing product and it's still great value for money. We can come and go as we please.

But what you fail to notice here is that this is not *just* a group of people putting together a sim. This is a commercial venture. They are SELLING a product. As soon as you sell something, you set expectations about it. Even with no contact or commitment involved in the purchase, you are working in the world of commerce and that comes with inherent attributes of trade.


I doubt many here are well versed in economics, but if you think the community of people that has paid for a product should celebrate the software developers for having an attitude that works against bringing new versions of the product to market, you are mad. Now don't get me wrong, I totally agree that the money we've paid so far for S2 is worth every, single penny. The cost of LFS today is well worth the product. BUT the point I am making is Scawen and crew and not just making an open source project in their own time, they are SELLING a solution and that comes with the burden of satisfying the expectation they set when selling a product.


Most people in today's commercial environment are used to getting product updates within a 12 month cycle. Heck, let me explain a little about my own professional experience. Microsoft used to have a 3 year planning, development and release cycle. Each version of Windows would be planned, designed, developed, tested and so on over 3 years. This was common across large software companies. What happened over the last few years is the ease at which people could build and deploy software reduced dramatically. Due to a variety of factors (quality of development platforms, the connectivity of the internet and the age of the smart mobile/tablet device with an inbuilt software delivery platform, aka the Apple App Store) people could develop and deliver updates to software well within the 3 year cycle. This means now I can develop a game for the iPhone within months, and then deliver new content updates within months. Heck I have seen developers build apps for phones and deliver content updates every 4 weeks. What does this mean for Microsoft? They've now totally reorganized MASSIVE parts of their development org to be on a 6 month delivery cycle. They accept they must be able to deliver software quicker and reflect the much faster delivery times of a cloud based software world.

How does this reflect on LFS? Because potential new customers to LFS who find out that there hasn't been an update in 3 YEARS are not going to buy the product. If they don't buy the product, there is a dwindling line of revenue for the continued development of the product. As more people leave due to a lack of updates and fewer people buy due to a lack of updates. Guess what happens? Scawen ends up making a decision. Can he afford to develop the product further? If he's happy to continue developing, even if no money comes in, his time to spend on it becomes even less while he finds other sources of income. Guess what? updates become rarer, less people play, the best thing about LFS starts to die. i.e. there is a smaller, disappearing community of online racers.

This results in me being sad. Because I love LFS and I would love an update of content to reinvigorate the exciting racing times I've had in the past... But oh well. Life goes on. If you want to celebrate a bunch of guys who sell you something, then constantly tease you with a possible update that takes many, many years to develop. While the rest of the world moves at a different pace, then slap him on the back, send him a nice email and raise your fingers at the world.

I however wish Scawen was a little more proactive and organized and could at least get Rockingham out the door. Or heck, how about splicing Fern Bay, South City, Blackwood, Aston, Westhill and Kyoto into one MASSIVE map. Today's PC surely could load that and we could make up some monster combinations. It would at least give us all some new lease of life into the fun we could have...

Or we could wait for another 3-4 years for a physics update which I'm not even sure will make a massive difference to what makes LFS so awesome. Close, online multiplayer racing. Will a new physics model significantly improve this? Who knows... maybe we never will.

Last edited by yeager, Tue, 3 Dec 2013 17:57.

Quote from bishtop :

yet your still here

You're

Quote from Scawen :

We're not that type of capitalists at all and don't want to manage a team of developers. That is totally out of the question. It's actually quite an alien thought to me that money can make development happen quicker.

And this is what saddens me. Essentially what you are saying is LFS is a project you develop, in your own time, with your own priorities. The community doesn't really impact this and you'll develop the solution when and if you see fit. That is absolutely, 100% your own prerogative and I would be rude and ignorant to tell you how to develop your own software.


But what makes this sad for me, is that I wanted LFS to be more. To actually have more than one update every 12 months and actually get new features that are worth getting excited about in a 5 year time frame. You don't have to be a capitalist to realize that not shipping a new track, that you in theory had nearly completed over 4 years ago, reflects on the product. It's alien to you that more money can make development quicker? Clearly. Because it's also alien to everyone else how stunningly slow the development of this solution has been. Money makes the world go around, it also makes software development projects move quicker. (And yes, I've read the "Mythical Man Month" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month)


LFS may not be dead from your own development priority. But the wonderful community of people I have enjoyed playing with, have come and gone and left in their hundreds due to the lack of progress. A decision that is solely yours, and one that saddens me in that it hasn't produced anything of a real improvement for many, many years.

I can't help but add some colour to this thread. I started playing LFS in 2003 and I LOVED IT. The potential for this game was huge. For me it's nothing to do with powerful and complex graphics, accurate physics or content. But what makes this sim so amazing is the ability to simulate racing situations. In 2003 I was able to race with tens of other cars, be able to accurately late brake into an apex, overtake using psychological driving as much as real road holding talent. In short, LFS consumed many, many hours of time and I fell in love.


Before I go on, let me bullet point some credentials just so those who might flame me, get some perspective on where I'm coming from.

• I've been in software development since 1996. I've worked for Dell, Microsoft, Oracle and I'm currently a product manager who leads the development of a software solution with a good chunk of developers.
  
• I worked in the games industry, first for Domark and then for Eidos. I experienced the nightmare of poor management in the games industry and ultimately left to join a more mature enterprise software world.
  
• I've raced cars. I started rallying with my cousin in small events around Lincolnshire, England. Then I did a few endurance races and then finally decided to have a go at drifting and built a drift car from the ground up (and ended up writing for a magazine in the process)
  
• I've played a fair chunk of racing games on both PC and consoles.
  

So it pains me to the core that LFS has seen such horrible development. The potential was huge. 5-6 years ago I raced daily and had made some great friends through LFS. The old CTRA racing system (mostly run by Sam) was absolutely fantastic. LFS is great, but it's nowhere near what it could be.


Sure the current version is still a great blast and those who complain they didn't get what they paid for, are plain wrong. LFS has been the best money in games I've ever paid for. But that still doesn't detract from the feeling of pity towards the community who were hoping, praying for more.


Clearly the developers don't have the time to dedicate to the solution. That is a real shame. But they also don't have the acumen to take advantage of the dedicated community the game has accrued. If the devs need more money, then charge a monthly subscription and in return deliver some new content. I would absolutely pay a reasonable amount a month if I knew there was going to be a new track in the next 3 months. Many people have cried out asking to provide help, only to be ignored. If people are TRYING to help you, and you are struggling financially to progress the game, then you gotta find a way to work it out.


But unfortunately LFS has just barely limped along. Surviving only on it's fantastic initial development. Heck, if Scawen is spending so much time on these new physics, there is a massive risk he screws up the "feel" that so many people love this game for. Instead, invest the time in delivering what people REALLY want. That is content, content, content... new tracks, cars, gameplay features.


I hate to write such a long and negative post. And I would love NOTHING more than to see S3 or a new track or SOMETHING released soon. But that hope is dead. LFS is great, but its potential has never been realized. That makes me sad

Quote from Scawen :

Time for me to unsubscribe.

From developing LFS?

No wonder the developers of this game decided to leave the big companies. Their ability to communicate progress on what they are working on is terrible. I wouldn't hire any of them, no matter how good their development skills are.

At the end of the day, LFS is great but the lack of communication and progress from the team making it casts an awful shadow over the entire community.

I LOVE this thread. Based on the current speed of development even a 10% implementation of this wonderful list would take 5 years. Ahhh one day a little email will end up in my inbox saying "LFS has now been moved into the modern age!"

Until then i'll keep reading the wonderful suggestions this thread has and the total lack of support it gets from the developers.

Progress and LFS should never appear in the same post. I love this game and had some amazing racing today but i'm under no false impressions that its never going to get any better than it currently is. S3? A myth... the whole initial concept of LFS was not having to develop a game under the typical commerical pressures of big games companies. Yet in stark contrast what we now have is zero progress. The communications skills of the developers is shocking. Imagine if they had actually released some new content every 6 months and kept the project alive we might actually have twice, nay, triple the racers competing today. We would have a wonderful menagerie of racing mayhem... instead we have less than 10 popular servers where good pickup racing can be had...

One day, one day in the far, far future, a newly, vastly improved version of LFS will exist. But until then, CarGame2 is my delight on this wondeful and aging racer.

Quote from SpooNJaB :

Unlucky. Bloody awful driver in the red car.

Actually I think the red car was driving well. Oskar Andersson makes a very risky move at 26 seconds on the inside of the red car. The red car has already taken a very defensive line and is set to make the apex and turn in alright, but Oskar tries to outbrake him and clearly doesn't have the stopping power to avoid smacking into the red car on the apex.

The rest of the video shows the red car struggling with grip which might be due to minor damage from the impact.

Wow... feeling the love of the LFS community. Nice responses guys.

I hope the car is soon recovered and without too much damage.

Quote from boothy :

Enable forced cockpit view or select an open config.

Ahh... now I just need to tempt the CG2 server guys to enable forced cockpit view

I would like to suggest that servers can force that the racing line is always off. I wonder how the online racing would change if nobody could see that pretty green/yellow and red line

This is a serious comment. I would much rather be racing with other people who are using real track cues for their braking points and turn ins. I think the racing line (press 4 on the keys) takes some of the skill from the game. Any chance we can have this an option on the server so that racers cannot switch it on?

Languages? C++, Java, Machine?
Platforms? Windows, Playstation, XBOX?
Type of developer? Graphics? AI? Physics?
Time frame for work? Weeks? Months? Years?

You need to give more information to attract anyone worth their salt.

I've been racing LFS for a long time, pretty much since the first release. It has been a great part of my gaming life but recently due to the amazing lack of decent racing online, e.g. 1-2 MAYBE 3 servers with decent racers, I took a look at iRacing...

iRacing, whilst expensive in comparison, is 10 years ahead of LFS. I'm now going to join the ranks of the others that have left LFS. I may come back and have a look when a new major release hits the streets. But by then i'll be progressing in iRacing and it is unlikely i'll have time for LFS unless Scawen does an amazing job. If his ability to communicate with a VERY dedicated customer base is anything to go by, I have very low hopes for a new release that will remain competitive in the current sim racing market.

And here I think I realize the reality of LFS. It is developed with an attitude of, "i'll finish it when i'm ready, I won't care when, and i'll take my time...". In essence, this sim is a personal project of Scawen's and he's not really bothered by the commercial aspect of the game. As such, he cares little for the satisfaction of his customers. It is this attitude that leads the game to stay in the minority, on the fringe, and small, slow development etc. Again, this seems to be quite OK with Scawen... so be it.

I however want new content, new cars, new features and a more modern simulator that has a major release at least once a year. iRacing is my new home and i'm so sad to leave because i've spent so many hours enjoying racing with LFS... but in this instance, the grass really is greener.

Scawen.. wake the **** up and pull your finger from your rear.

Happy New Year all

Quote from Whiskey :

You didn't get it right. You are a ghost to other players, so they can't crash due to the lag, nobody said that you would be able to fly in the sky or hide behind the walls.

But I would be able to fool LFS into thinking my connection was bad, enter ghost mode, and then overtaking becomes rather easy

Oh my, please for pete's sake this thread is becoming a Guinness book of records contender.

I've been racing LFS when I can over the past 6 months and it is down right awesome and fantastic and sweaty hand inducing good fun.

yes the graphics are 1990's, yes there a massive collision detection bugs, yes I wish my million zillion setups could be organized in a more orderly fashion...

and finally, yes I god damn wish the developers would hire/accept help from someone who could actually do a half decent job of communicating progress to their very loyal fan base.

but at the end of the day people, we can all join FOX Junkies, CarGame S2 etc etc and race like no other game on this entire planet. I've had races in the past few weeks that were so close, so much fun, that all the woes of the LFS development world were banished into a hole of never ending depth...

I would LOVE some new cars, I DESIRE some new tracks and I would very easily pay $50 for the privilege of them right here, right now... but i've eventually learned that all the posts on this forum asking, nay, demanding for change and new releases is pointless...

People, all you racers, be free of vision, forget the ideal and simply live in the wonderful world of reality. LFS is great, race it, love it, enjoy it... If we ever get a newer version, a better codebase, more tracks, more cars, and if I may be as daring to say... a track editor!!! then we should all unite in one mass of cheers and congratulate said developers for such a great achievement.

LFS is the place where I race and the place where my racing dreams come true. That is the current reality, make it any better and i'm in heaven...

My prayers are with you all....