Quote from ZzeCoOl :

bully

pussy

Nice prize and well done.

With regards to football, can you both please check between your legs and confirm you are indeed men? A man who has no passion for the greatest game in the world is in need of help.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The words were easy on their own. But I couldn't form coherent sentences out of them

Now that sounds like he might be better off with Perl!

Quote from jaykay3000 :

yeh, he just complained at uss that in the first hand in which is like a pre-runner to the main design phase hand in that he complained most of uss had said we were using one thing without exploring the other options that are out there so as a long shot I decided to ask here as I think perl and java are fairly similair. I could I guess compare them with c++ and python... but woa... could be here for 22 days on that. lol

You might want to spend some effort on your English skills as well as programming, I barely understood a word of what you wrote.

If you want to a learn a language that is going to be used in your future professional career, then Java without question.

If you want to learn a very, very powerful text processing language then Perl is the way to go.

If you are processing simple text files, a Java program is more resource intensive than Perl. BUT Java is going to be a bit easier to learn, a lot of people struggle with the cryptic Perl and the benefits of lower lines of code in Perl versus Java might be offset by the differences in learning curve.

My choice? Java... simply because Java is now becoming the defacto standard for a lot of projects. Also because I work for the company buying Sun, so Java is a bit closer to my line of work than something like Perl.

Quote :

Real Time Race has been developing a system that places players side-by-side with the drivers in real races.The firm's technology would map the circuit just before the race so the virtual track would match up to the one on TV. The video recording of the track would then be manipulated by the gamer during live coverage.

This data would then be streamed to the player's computer or straight to a television via the internet. "We can put you in your own car, within real TV coverage of a real race, and in real time against the professionals," said Chris Leigh, the company's head. "When Jenson Button nails his car from the front you can go and chase after him and try and beat him to the first corner," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/pro ... /click_online/8333340.stm

Interesting...

Quote from tristancliffe :

Let's agree to differ shall we? Otherwise we'll get harassed for arguing, and everyone will get fed up

Yip, kiss kiss, hug hug, lick lick... and so on

Quote from tristancliffe :

I lied. I replied to too many points. Sorry.

No worries, i'm out of energy on this one, i'll agree to disagree on a bunch of stuff. Sorry for any overly rude comments, been a long day and i've got a lot of time spent with quality tuners who modify quite amazing road cars.

Plus I just want to get my hands on the new LFS physics/tracks and cars. I'm beyond patience now waiting for an update... but hell this subject gets discussed every second on this battle zone of a forum

Quote from Bob Smith :

I agree with Jakg on this, a road car has very different brake needs to a car designed for the track. The brakes on my Mondeo fade after only a couple of hard braking stints, I doubt they'd even last a hard lap at a track. On the road however, unless I've just done a high speed emergency stop, I've got enough braking friction to lock the wheels if I so wish. So there would be zero benefit of me upgrading the brakes unless I wanted to start going to track days, or finding some nice windy hill roads to blat round (which, in a car that rolls like a ship and accelerates like ball of dung down a gentle hill, I won't be).

Agreed, but this rather long and convoluted conversation was around people modifying cars, and they typically are taking their car to a track and enjoying England's fine windy roads... Modern road cars, when used as road cars, have very good braking systems. But if you want to improve on that car's ability to perform, typically the order most tuner's i've worked with would suggest is...

• Improve grip and road handling
  
• Improve the ability to stop the car (which improves as part of the first item)
  
• Improve engine response
  
• Increase engine power
  

Quote from Jakg :

My point was that brakes you want for track use are very different for brakes you want for road use - you said after several laps the brakes started to fade, but your never going to be pushing them so hard so often on the road...

Well true my example was on the track. But my point is that standard brake systems (calipers, brake lines, discs, pads etc) are good usually for one or two very hard stops, after that you incur temps that are quickly going to reduce your braking performance. Anyone "modding" their car is going to most likely be driving with a little more "spirit", and therefore one of the first modifications of value is the brakes.

But Tristan claimed..
Again, brakes are a bad example, because they very very rarely need upgrading on the road, unless you double the engine power or something.

Which simply isn't true and such an attitude has led to me passing many modified cars at track days simply because I can out brake them in the corners.

Quote from RasmusL :

Well to be honest most factory tuning companies even have problems with reducing turbolag.. And if they can't do it to fx. a WRX STI, how are aftermarket tuners with MUCH less money going to do it?
IMO, even my Rotax engine has too much lag No way in hell I could live with a giant turbo.

Because the WRX STi, although designed for performance, also has to worry about maintenance and warranties. You want lower turbo lag? Fit an ECU or anti lag system or modify turbo vanes using either variable vanes... actually, someone I know wrote up this subject very well...

Quote :

Anti Lag Strategy
- On short strokes and V config engines, using two smaller turbos is better.
- Some straight six engines will benefit from a sequential twin setup.
- Fuel can be dumped into the exhaust during off-throttle periods.
- Bigger turbos mean bigger turbo lag.
- Smaller turbos will reduce turbo lag but will also reduce max possible boost.

Turbo lag is always a consideration when dealing with turbos. The bigger the turbo, the more extreme the turbo lag. Big power will always mean big turbos and more exhaust energy is required to turn bigger compressors.

There are various ways to overcome turbo lag. These methods are referred to as anti lag strategies. In its most basic form, an engine management system dumps excess fuel into the engine while the driver lifts from the throttle. At the same time, it retards the ignition which causes the fuel to pass straight through the engine and into the exhaust system. When the fuel hits the turbine wheel it ignites because the wheel is at close to 1000dec Celsius. The resulting burn causes a lot of black smoke, but it rapidly accelerates the turbine wheel so that it is close to full boost when the driver reapplies the throttle.

Another approach is to place a fuel injector onto the exhaust manifold and inject directly into the exhaust manifold.

For a brief time, Ferrari used a system which virtually eliminated turbo lag. The inlet and exhaust manifolds were linked via a bypass passage containing a valve which opened as the throttle was closed. Any time the driver lifted from the throttle, compressed air from the inlet manifold rushed into the turbo. With excess fuel available, and a rush of air into the red hot turbine, enormous flow was created which quickly accelerated the turbine. However, the turbine wasn’t up to dealing with the excessive forces and often failed under this pressure.

More sophisticated and fundamental strategies exist for minimising turbo lag.
For certain engines, using two or more smaller turbos rather than a single larger turbo can improve engine response and lessen turbo lag. This is particularly effective on very short stroke engines or on v configuration blocks where the exhaust outlet exits on both sides of the block.

On longer stroke engines using a single turbo can be better because there is already decent torque available in low down rpm. In this case the use of split pulse turbine housings provides superior response and spool-up time. The use of two turbos in this instance only increases complexity and weight, without giving enough improvement to justify multiple turbos. In some cases, race teams go from the production two-turbo setup to a single turbo setup.

Towards the end of the turbo F1 era, manufacturers such as KKK, Garrett and IHI were able to supply variable geometry turbines which could survive in very hostile petrol engine racing conditions. Variable geometry turbines help performance right through the rev range. At low rpm they function like a small turbo, but as rpm increases, they act like a larger turbo, allowing large amounts of boost to be generated. Previously, this technology was limited to low temp diesel turbos. The use of silicon nitrate enabled these turbos to operate at 1170deg Celsius and at over 160000 rpm.

Anti Lag in Rallying.
- Group A rallying greatly refined anti-lag techniques.
- Fuel afterburn and EMU control were used.
- Easy to cook the turbo using this technique.

During the Group B era in rallying(1980s), the same strategies as mentioned above were used to limit turbo lag, however, when Group B was banned and 34mm restrictors were made mandatory, turbo lag became a serious problem, which could not be dealt with by simple ignition retard. Overcoming the problem involved careful turbo matching, new turbo design and effective anti lag systems which did not compromise turbo reliability or overly affect fuel consumption.

Before the Group A and WRC era, turbos could only sustain temperatures of around 950deg, but the introduction of better alloys and ceramics, meant turbos could now operate above 1000degrees(up to 1250deg for short periods). This opened the possibility of using fuel afterburn to keep the turbo spinning.
There are a few different ways of doing this and it can sometimes depend as much on driver preference as anything else. Some drivers prefer instant response as soon as they get back on the throttle; others require a more progressive approach to anti lag, especially on forestry or gravel stages. This is one of the reasons forestry cars often require different maps to tarmac cars. The same car can require up to 5 different maps just to deal with the different antilag requirements of competitors who compete in the national forestry and national and international sealed surface events.

A simple antilag system for a rally or road car will instruct the EMU to increase fuelling by 15% when it senses a trailing throttle (less than ¼ open) at greater than 2000rpm. The EMU will than revert to 10deg before TDC and will cut spark at each cylinder by ¾.(MoTeC and Gems units automate some of these settings).
At the same time, a suitably modified EGR valve opens in response to an EMU command linking the EGR to the inlet vacuum reservoir. Air which is under pressure from the compressor side of the turbo is forced into the exhaust manifold. Here, close to the turbine, the burst of air causes the unburned fuel to ignite.
This combustion creates heat and pressure which spools the turbo to produce over 20 psi boosts with the throttle closed.
As the throttle is reopened at the exit of the corner, boost quickly drops to about 8psi. Once past ¼ throttle, the EMU discontinues antilag operations and normal operation resumes.

Turbo Lag on Road Cars.
- Great improvements in the past five years.
- Turbo lag almost eliminated on latest high compression, low boost cars.
- Turbo sizing and good gear matching have helped.

Turbo lag is becoming less and less of a problem on road cars because of better electronic control improved turbo design, but it is still a factor which must be considered on road car applications and it is an essential consideration of any competition engine setup. And tuning beyond the stock setup leaves way for turbo lag to become a serious problem. In an effort to reach maximum top end horsepower, the lower down power and turbo lag can suffer and become even worse than stock. No improvements in top end power should be applied if it grossly affects low down response. On average a turbo car must have 30% better overall power over a naturally aspirated car just to keep a level footing on a twisty road or a race track because of the sacrifices that are made lower down the rev range. Add to this the fact that a turbo car requires more driver skill to keep it in the power zone and the need for an effective anti lag strategy becomes clearer still.

There are four main areas that have to be addressed to combat lag:
- engine hardware choice
- fine tuning fuel and spark (incl. antilag fuel and spark strategy)
- gearbox ratios and final drive ratio
- turbo sizing and technology choices

Launch Control.
- Spark cut to one cylinder at a time.
- Boost is built up at the line by passing unburnt fuel to the turbine.
- Very easy on the turbo.
- Not so easy on the drive train.

A good launch strategy is essential to overcome turbo lag at the start line. A rev limit set to anything from 4000 to maximum revs is employed through a wheel mounted switch or through the clutch pedal. When the throttle is floored and the clutch is fully depressed, the launch limit is in effect and the engine will not pass the set rev limit. Spark is cut to one cylinder at a time to hold the engine revs. With spark alternatively being held from the plugs, unburned fuel is passed into the exhaust along with the air from the cylinder. Once in the exhaust manifold, the hot air/fuel mix ignites and drives the turbo turbine. Because spark isn’t retarded using this method, the exhaust gases are kept reasonably cool. Therefore, afterburn combustion is slow and incomplete, so turbo temps don’t reach dangerous levels.

Soft Rev Limit Control.
- A more sympathetic alternative to anti-lag.
- Launch control on the move.

Sometimes you can leave the launch control on during hard driving and use it instead of the much more severe anti-lag (Motec and Gems) system employed by grpA and WRC rally cars.
Each time the clutch is depressed at engine rpm higher than the set rev limit, the turbo runs in afterburn mode. The turbo is able to maintain its speed during gear change. Along with the afterburn, the throttle is kept open and air is free to course into the engine from the compressor (rather than hitting a closed throttle plate), which allows the compressor to coast more freely. This system is so effective that a bigger/heavier turbo can actually be an advantage because of the flywheel effect keeping the compressor turning.
Along with the benefits to acceleration, there is also a benefit in that the drive never has to lift off the throttle during up or down shifts. This means you don't have to worry about heel and toeing into and out of the corner. The rev limiter will hold the revs at safe levels.

Quote from durbster :

This is one reason I'm changing to 15s. There is much more choice of rubber and the prices are often the same or better too. I almost went for white wheels too as it happens but after much Photoshoppery I decided they're a bit too attention-seeking on a blue car for me (look the nuts on a white car though). I've not seen the BBS wheels done up in white before either

http://www.daftdonkey.com/exte ... /miata/TEIN/newtein01.jpg
http://www.daftdonkey.com/exte ... /miata/TEIN/newtein03.jpg

I can't remember the names of the wheels, but the Miata/MX5/Roadster I owned, looked and rode well with these.

Last edited by yeager, Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:13.

Quote from Jakg :

For a track car yes you want better brakes - but not neccesarily for a road car.

Anyone who wants to modify their road car for higher performance one of the first things anyone should do is upgrade the brakes. There is no argument with that statement, emergency stops or not, if you want a better performing road car, get better brakes.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Again, brakes are a bad example, because they very very rarely need upgrading on the road, unless you double the engine power or something.

Sorry Tristan, I simply can't let some of this go. That statement is SO wrong it's unbelievable.

When Nissan first released the 350Z in the UK I was invited by my local Nissan dealer to go for a day on the track with a bunch of totally factory standard 350Z's around Bedford Autodrome. After 4 laps I lost the front brakes, some of the other drivers were instructors from the race school. They also complained of very poor standard brakes...

So no, you are very wrong. With MOST road cars, one of the FIRST modifications you can make that will improve the performance of your road car is upgrading the brake system.

My final comment, I must do some proper work...

Quote from tristancliffe :

The world of Car Modding is a lot less professional, scientific and elegant than you believe.

You would also be very surprised at the amount of engineering knowledge a lot of the experience and well known tuners have. Give Gary from AP Tuning a call, he's one of the more responsible tuners in the UK who educate those trying to make car modifications without understanding what they are doing. And better BRAKES on a road car that's had a power increase is a DEFINITE good idea.

http://www.ap-tuning.co.uk/Rolling_Road.html

Quote from tristancliffe :

Don't compare a manufacturer 'sorted' premium turbo installation with a kit available off the internet. It's highly unlikely a kit for an MX-5 exists that is lag free. The BBT ones had lag, and they were good enough for Mazda to offer a warranty with and sell in their dealers.

I agree, I was making the point that very low lag turbo solutions are more than available. The costs to getting one however is a different matter If you want a lag free forced induction solution for your MX5, super charge it.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I have Konis on my race car. They were designed for the car (or the car was designed for them). That does NOT mean that a Koni kit for my MX-5 will be any good. My car is quite common, so chances are someone at Koni has driven one. But they won't have done thousands of miles of testing of that particular application. Especially as the aftermarket scene is littered with silly wheels, silly anti-roll bars etc. What are the chances that Koni's guessed setup (and it is little more than a guess in the aftermarket world) will work properly with YOUR choice of other modifications?

This is getting into a rather silly amount of detail. I was bringing you to charge on the very wide statement you made...
They (the manufacturers of aftermarket parts) are generally trying to pursuade idiots to buy their stuff, so they are made to a price, sold at a premium, and with next to no 'testing'.

Koni make high quality suspension parts which the purchaser must use as part of a total suspension setup. Koni's setups when testing will typically reflect common use and as such give them confidence they will work with most applications.

I know many people in the aftermarket world, some are terrible, some are not. Names like Brembo, Tein, HKS, etc etc spend a lot money making sure they produce high quality parts for use. They are not trying to persuade idiots to buy high cost, low value product thats barely tested.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It's all well and good Peugeot or Porsche using Brembo stuff on a standard car, with known design parameters in 'as-new' conditions, it's another thing to bolt on a set of Brembos (brakes are a bad choice for this example, but pretend I'm now talking about dampers or something) and hope that your soggy, rotting chassis, with whatever else you've done to it will work.

Tristan, you are wildly missing the point by a mile. Your initial statement was..
They (the manufacturers of aftermarket parts) are generally trying to pursuade idiots to buy their stuff, so they are made to a price, sold at a premium, and with next to no 'testing'.

I just pulled you up on this saying that big brand names do a lot of testing and produce high quality. Of course if you stick 7000 GBP Brembo brakes on a rust bucket is a waste of time and money.

Quote from tristancliffe :

You might get lucky. You might also choose a car on which they did happen to do quite a lot of testing. But chances are you won't.

I disagree, many cars share the same platforms (Mazda MX6 and Ford Probe is a classic example) and the higher quality aftermarket manufacturers do a lot of testing on common brands of cars that are modified. Sure, buy a Renault Espace and even if you CAN find a suspension upgrade, I wouldn't expect miricles... but thats a stupid arguement to make.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Racing doesn't improve the breed that directly. Racing improves racing, and racing improves (eventually) production road vehicles. Racing (say in F1) doesn't improve 15 year old cars.

I agree, where on earth are you going with this subject?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Turbo people are, actually, more likely to test their products. They don't want engine/turbo blowups. But as long as the dampers/springs don't
collapse, then the handling isn't really the problem of, say, Koni.

Yip, I agree... but that doesn't mean Koni do little testing. Koni spend a LOT of money on testing. Your initial statement, to which I am refering, was a pretty general one.

Quote from tristancliffe :

You say Brembo don't guess. Phone them tomorrow and ask them to make a kit for something REALLY obscure. Do you really think they'll buy one, make the kit, subject it to thousands of miles of testing in all conditions, refining the product. No, they'll plug some numbers into a laptop, find the closest thing they already make, and sell it to you. That's not bespoke, that's closer to bodge. Again, brakes are a bad example, because they very very rarely need upgrading on the road, unless you double the engine power or something.

Oh boy, now you are getting into an area you demonstrate you have little experience in. Call up Brembo with the specs of your car, the performance parameters, and they will recommend what calipers and what hub/rotor combintation is ideal. They will know EXACTLY the specifications of that caliper working against the material of that rotor with specific pads. Now what the CUSTOMER has to do is make the appropriate changes to mount these components in a safe and relaible fashion. Brembo will not in anyway make claims about the CUSTOMERs application of these components.

Now if the customer has the engineering skills to put these pieces together in an effective manner? It sure aint a bodge, many fast road going and race cars have been built with bespoke kits. And the aftermarket company selling these products were not treating customers as idiots.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Phone up Koni. Like I did last week to arrange a 'kit' for a classic car (as the 40 year old ones are a bit knackered these days, so we needed a replacement we can sell to the world). They need drawings of the originals (or photos if you're an eejit that can't draw straight lines and circles), data on unsprung weight, sprung weight, travel, frequencies/rates. And then they make something 'about right'. Often they want to dyno the old (40 year old) dampers and match the new ones to that, failing to understand that we don't want them matched, as the old ones are shot.

Sounds to me like Koni are therefore doing their best to understand your application of the product to your car in the most effective manner. Please tell me how this little story backs up your claim...

They (the manufacturers of aftermarket parts) are generally trying to pursuade idiots to buy their stuff, so they are made to a price, sold at a premium, and with next to no 'testing'.

So you are the idiot that bought overpriced dampers that Koni rarely test?

Quote from tristancliffe :

The world of Car Modding is a lot less professional, scientific and elegant than you believe.

I'm starting to you think you are either very stupid, or a bit of a troll or simply cannot read...

I agree that a high percentage of people modifying their cars thrown on products and don't spend significant time in setting up or understanding the true application of aftermarket parts.

But don't for one second think that the big brand names that are very successful in both racing and road components don't spend a lot of time testing these components. Thats simply bad business. It is also bad business to think your customers are idiots...

Quote from tristancliffe :

Do you really think they drive every model of car in new, old and 'upgraded' condition? No, mostly they'll get a request from a reseller or a customer, with a few drawings and sketches (or maybe even have parts of the car shipped over to make the 'kit'), make them, and sell them.

I know that the above aftermarket parts suppliers work closely with both original manufacturer with regards to certain models. Sure they don't test every single car their units are matched for, but the units themselves are *highly* tested. If you think Greddy just throw together turbo kits without actually installing them on a car and doing some testing, you don't know this market very well. Yes it is on the owness of the purchaser to then ensure an adequate fuel and timing map is setup to make the most of the turbo, but this is solely the responsibility of the person building the car.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Even on a 'quality' product, they nearly always won't drive the car themselves, just plug in some vague numbers to a computer, and wait to see what feedback they get - especially from the initial customer.

That is a very different experience i've seen with high quality manufacturers. Brembo for instance certainly do not just plug numbers into a computer and hope they get it right. They spend a very large sum of money on testing configurations, compounds, temperature limitations etc.

Quote from tristancliffe :

They might cost more, and that might be down to better seals, better life, more adjustability or whatever. But I doubt Bilstein actually do much testing, if any, on most aftermarket kits.

Bilstein spend a lot of time working with various race teams and car manufacturers to ensure their kits are well designed.

For example...
http://reviews.cnet.com/coupe- ... p;subj=2009+Mazda+RX-8+R3

Have a guess who designed and supplied the dampers?

I agree with you that a large sum of people purchase aftermarket parts, throw them on the car and slap a sticker on the door announcing they are "Tein enabled" without spending the time and effort to ensure the car is setup correctly. I also agree there are a lot of aftermarket manufacturers who produce poor quality items, often using parts better suited for farm machinery, and sell them at a premium.

But the leading aftermarket manufacturers produce very high quality products and often work very closely with the original car creator and race teams. I was simply pointing out your very large sweeping statement.

Last edited by yeager, Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:25.

Quote from tristancliffe :

As for super/turbocharging, whilst it is possible to sort turbocharging nicely, you'll still end up with lag of some sort. And the MX-5 is such a wonderfully balanced car that can be steered using the wheel or the pedals. I'd guess (I've not tried either) that lag would ruin the handling of the car in this regard.

I promise i'm not trying to pick on you today

Super charging an MX5 is a good path for more grunt...
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/S ... ts.aspx?PlateIndexID=3366

And using a turbo does not always mean lag. Ever driven a Porsche 911 Turbo?

Quote from tristancliffe :

They (the manufacturers of aftermarket parts) are generally trying to pursuade idiots to buy their stuff, so they are made to a price, sold at a premium, and with next to no 'testing'.

Woah there fella, huge sweeping statements...

http://www.tein.com/
http://www.apexi-usa.com/
http://www.bilstein.de/home.html?int=1

Are just three aftermarket manufacturers who I can absolutely guarantee do a lot of testing and deliver a very premium product.

But I agree there are many who "modify" their cars buy simply buying these aftermarket items and not spending the time to correctly match component to car and then have it setup correctly. I think when building my car I spent 50% of the time making custom changes to the suspension to augment and improve the aftermarket parts fitted as well as using well experienced guys to setup the geometry.

e.g.
http://www.daftdonkey.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=982
http://www.daftdonkey.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=1150

Quote from Bose321 :

I am using Z20. The server of mine is Z3. ALL version servers show 'wrong version'.

edit- Reapplied Z20, works again.

I have Z20 installed and i'm getting that exact problem right now, all servers are listed as wrong version.

Quote from tristancliffe :

You'd be better off doing some proper motorsport, where the skill is in NOT drifting. I only drift when I run out of talent

If he's not got much money, the last place he wants to head is "proper" motorsport Drifting is still pretty cheap for the fun you get...

Quote from Jakg :

Been thinking about it all day and decided i'll be saving up to another one - Tesco Clubcard vouchers are worth about 4x the amount in deals so i'll buy them from my parents and use my own 'till I have enough to drive something else cool

Jack if you want to do another drifting type course, i'd deffo look at these guys.

http://www.jdmallstars.com/events/drift-academy.asp

Quote from Shotglass :

yeah how dare they teach them proper car control and proper weight shifting initiations instead
and yes thank you i know clutch kicking and handbraking are used in competition a lot but just because something allows you to do a more extreme drift doesnt mean itll teach someone new to the sport/experience anything about how a car handles

Usual offensive response I would expect from you Proper" car control? Whatever that is, a rally driver certainly uses different techniques and has a different skill set for car control than an F1 driver. So if I turn up to a rally experience day, I want to at least get some understanding and have a go at what a rally driver does... if I go to a drifting experience day, I want to understand how people drift cars. I simply pointed out that for beginners, the two most common methods of unsettling a car for a drift is clutch kicking and the hand brake.

The feinting method of initiation is totally valid and actually much harder to do for beginners because it requires a more subtle feel of car control.

The best way to get people to control a car on the edges of drift is to start with donuts, initially in first gear, then teach shifting to second and making the circle wider and wider. Once someone can control the car in that state, then you can teach ways to get into the drift from stable, forward motion...

Anyway, I didn't want to start arguements but I forgot that asking questions on this forum brings people like you out of the woodwork who enjoy having a go I'll get back to work and let you continue your bile...

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Only took a good 15 or so posts for this to be understood.

Which is shockingly short, no?

Quote from DaveJ :

because you're slightly faster, by the time it gets there, its rear will clip your front; are you expected to back off, or should he leave room on the outside?

In my opinion of course. If the car in the middle is taking the inside line, they cannot force onto your line, they have to be clear of your car before trying to go wide and get the better line. They choose the inside line and have to find the safest way through on it. However you cannot just turn into them on your line.

I find the best way to win an inside dive is to take a position that blocks the outside car from taking their preferred line, place my car in the way. This means I have to take a slower line through the corner but because i'm blocking the other car, he also has to slow down. So we make the corner slower, but if I defended my inside line correctly, then I get to accelerate faster at the exit and therefore make the pass.

Quote from DaveJ :

Another one: If you're side-by-side with someone whose on your left through the BL chicane, heading to the last of the 3 apexes, where is the edge of the track?! i.e. does he only need to leave your left wheels within/on(?) the green curb part, or are you entitled to have your right wheels within/on(?) it too?

All curbs are valid parts of the racing surface