Quote from george_tsiros :

i do not have a phd. i do not have a master's degree. i do not have a BSc. i am still a pregraduate. i have not studied general relativity, only special relativity.
i did not insult anyone. but it is insulting to say that gravity is acceleration.

I think all GregorV is trying to instill in you is to keep an open mind and just because something is taken as fact now doesn't mean it will be always fact throughout history "what we know" has been turned on its head many times by new discoveries... and there is nothing to say there want be another such discovery when individuals have a closed mind and say it must be this way and no other way! it limits their ability to discover new possibilities

No you didn't insult anyone, but on the other hand you were not willing to see something from someone else's perspective... you never know looking through others eyes just may enable you to see something you have never seen before doesn't mean the way they see it is correct either but may still enable you to see things differently thus shedding new light on a subject, we are all learning and never will stop.

You remind me of young engineers that venture out and take up there first positions in the real wourld, they often get themselves in all sorts of bother because they insist their way can not be ever the wrong way! They soon learn that the lowly tradesman that has 20 years real life experience sometimes know more than he gives them credit for Whats in a text book and what happens in real life sometimes doesn't match up.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Yay for thread resurrection!

That sucks, I get caught all the time thinking its a recent thread

Quote from JeffR :

Because of the engine's torque, one tire will get more downforce than the other. Viewed from the rear, most engines rotate counter-clockwise, with the resulting torque creating a bit more downforce on the left rear, which causes a slight yaw to the right. However since both tires are spinning fast, grip and forces are low, and it's not very much of a yaw. (LFS yaws the cars left). Do a websearch for "burnout contest videos" and you'll see some good examples of control with both rear tires spinning at high speed. LFS doesn't model this.

Ok so we can draw from that, that it is most likely the tyre modeling issue, and Scawen is working on that now... while there is any issue with tyre modeling, I'd have to assume that simulating any form of traction control would also have potential to operate in unexpected ways, and once the tyre modeling issues are sorted out there is less need for traction control

Here at home I connect to the net in two ways, 2-way satalite connection 512/128kbits (but this has poor ping as the signal travels into space and back giving generally in the order of 800ms to the first terestrial point, so no good for games, I use it for just for general web stuff), the other connection I have is ISDN 128/128kbits which gives ping to my provider 55-60ms and to most Euro LFS servers 450-500ms, US servers 350-400ms, Asia servers 250-350ms and Aussie servers 90-150ms.

I live in the outback of Australia so have little options in what I can do , I've only just come off an analog modem in which I could only get 28.8kbits.

In talking to the local telco tech though in the not too distant future (maybe a year) ADSL will be possible in remote areas as they are in testing for these sevices now, up until recently you had to be reasonably close to the local exchange to get ADSL. What suprised me was that the distance factor isn't that much of a problem for the data component of ADSL but is a problem for voice, and that's what they are working on at the moment.

So if you live in a remote area and your local exchange is 10-20km away it may be possible to get ADSL on a second line if its data only, this is something a telco wouldn't recommend though and you will have to convince them to do it and take the risk on yourself (i.e. if it didn't work well, tough tities)

Quote from JeffR :

A fuel dragster funny car has a much higher power to weight ratio and these are launched at full throttle all the time. If the clutch is set too tight, you get wheel spin, and yet most of the time, the cars don't get sideways. Getting back to CART cars, they sometimes hit the rev-limiter coming out of the pits. These cars can at least be "aimed" with the rear tires spinning, unlike the FO8 of LFS, which is way down on power by comparason, yet much less controllable with the rear tires spinning. Just for show, there are guys who see how long they can spin the wheels on a car, most of them can go through an entire 1/4 mile run with the rear tires spinning, ending up well over 100mph.

Hmn could it be that in LFS the rotational force of the motor reving is too strong, which then causes the cars to spin? Do they always spin in the same direction when trying to take off on a flat smooth surface?

Also doesn't the force of attraction between two objects have something to do with the masses of both objects? All objects have mass and therefore have a "gravitational force" albiet small in relation to the earths, but that would explain the difference in force produced by different wieght objects no?

Two magnets attract, how are they attracted? By a force or an acceleration?

just pondering, ignor me

Quote from tristancliffe :

Gravity is an acceleration, NOT a force. I'd have thought you'd have known that.

What came first the chicken or the egg

Quote from Fetzo :

aren't the forces in the force dynamics quiet similar (they aren't obviously not as strong) like the forces affecting us in a real car? aren't the forces we experiencing the values the matter (the we really can feel)?

we aren't really noticing acceleration in a sealed car, do we?

Yes the forces are similar enough to make us believe the computer simulation is real - and that is enough But it by no means simulates all the forces well. Just as the computer simulation itself cannot simulate all aspects, we just don't have enough PC on our desktops.

Quote from george_tsiros :

Define "work".

Make you feel like you are actually in a car and stepping on the gas? no.
Make you feel bumps on the road? yes.
make you feel lateral acceleration? only for a very short duration. very short. and limited as to how often the same turns (right and right and again right) can be taken.

depending on what you mean by "work" the answer varies from "perfectly" to "not at all"

Yes well if we are to get the exact feel we all know we need to jump in a real car and go around a real track thats very obviously not the aim of a motion simulator A motion simulator is just a device to enable you to be more fully immersed in a simulation that involves motion it's aim is not to replicate the said motion

Thanks Colcob that makes sense

I guess then with preloading in the diff's that effect will be lessened and if we increase coast locking also it would help.

Quote from Tweaker :

Maybe my Marketing major studies is affecting my view on this :doh:

Quite likely it is

Yeah guess all I'm trying to indicate is that if it is how you say it is the only people that would really know for sure are the developers, and anything we discuss is pure speculation

If they were feeling overwhelmed by the task, I'm sure they would have some contacts to call upon but TBH while they have expressed some feelings (although very minimal) about community pressure, even reading between the lines they write in posts I can't see any indication that they feel the task is too big.

Last edited by B2B@300, Tue 28 Feb 2006, 06:59.

The strangest behaviour for me with the clutch pack is under trail braking (towards the end of trail braking when in the final gear for the exit of the corner) a lot of us get this inexplicable sudden drop in RPM, which doesn't happen with viscous or locked diffs Is that normal behaviour for a clutch diff? or is that some problem in its modelling or the tyres modelling?

Firstly Tweak I can see were your coming from .

But for us as external observers of the development process things can be rather deceptive I feel . What I mean by that is that before there was any public knowledge of LFS at all, pre 2002 and early 2002 the dev's were already working on the project. Scawen may have had the idea knocking around in his head for 10 years we don't know.

The way I see it is that in the years when you felt like it was LFS's hayday the developers had already put alot of work into the foundations of the sim and were then, in that time frame you site, adding content and polishing the "diamond in the rough" they had carved out earlier. What we are seeing now, is the developers going back to the foundations and strengthening them substanially, which will put this sim in a great position for the future. Although development feels like it is slow now, I believe it's because it is on stuff that isn't so obvious to us the users . Once they have finished with the foundation stuff again, I think you will see the "precieved" pace pick up again as the focus returns to adding features and polishing the end result...

Last edited by B2B@300, Tue 28 Feb 2006, 06:33.

Quote from JeffR :

If not, it's pretty close to it. They aren't trying to get an optimal launch, they're trying to keep rpms high to prevent a hot engine from stalling. 1st gear is probably set to redline somewhere between 85mph and 100mph depending on the track.

Yes but if you just stuck your foot straight to the floor in a F1 car, champ car or any other car with similar power to wieght ratios the RPM will be bouncing off the rev limiter in like 0.01 of a sec and I'm pretty sure it would be a handfull to control

A proper launch technique would be to bring the RPM upto a predetermined level (say 7000 -8000 RPM) and hold it there. When the clutch is dropped continue holding the throttle at that same level (don't floor it) until the tyres get grip and then push the throttle smoothly the rest of the way to the floor . I'm by no means an expert in the fo8 or similar cars but that should be a technique that works resaonably well. To some one observing externally that still might seem like the driver is just flooring it, but it is far from it... by throttle modulation I mean varying your throttle amount to maintain a desired RPM

Last edited by B2B@300, Tue 28 Feb 2006, 06:04.

Quote from JeffR :

So why not in LFS?

TBH I've never really had that much of a problem in LFS and it does baffal me a little why some do... maybe post a replay and a setup that you use then we might see what is the problem, although I think it will just come down to excess throttle application IRL if you want wheel spin with control (as in champ cars leaving the pits) I'm fairly certain they don't just plant their foot to the metal

Last edited by B2B@300, Tue 28 Feb 2006, 01:48.

Quote from JeffR :

My only issue is how does a game give a player feedback from what is happening at the rear end of a rear wheel drive car? How do you know how much throttle you can apply?

Depends on the car - the more powerful it is, try keep wheelspin to the absolute minimium (so alot of modulation) as you will get it anyway. With the less powerful one you can plant your foot more (much less modulation) but it's all about throttle modulation, for me it just comes down to experimenting a bit and practise. Like tristian says in a sim you don't have the "seat of pants O'meter" so you have to predict some situations from experience - LFS is very pridictable when you become familiar with it.

Last edited by B2B@300, Tue 28 Feb 2006, 00:21.

Quote from Smax :

and should be put down before I become nothing more than an embarrasment to the miserable f****d up selfish brats that I have spawned to replace myself.

No no your doing well the more like you the better as the economies of the world will continue on strongly - spawn away only downside is it will continue to enlarge the gulf between the haves and have nots

Quote from KiDCoDEa :

if lfs system wasnt good, it wouldnt be shamelessly copied by photocopies like rfactor or nkpro. from the motto to the business model, to the distribution to the content approach.

Don't think anyone is saying LFS Lic model is bad, it's awsome and the best value I've ever had out of a game/sim. That doesn't mean it can't be improved upon though but as already has been discussed at length (in the imrovements section) it's a matter of if it's worth improving upon as it will only affect a few individuals as it stands at the moment

Quote from mrodgers :

Don't laugh at my stats, LOL

I'm not laughing, really I'm not

I think the most telling stat there is the Free Roll RMachucaA is either on the the throttle or on the brake but yes I agree interesting.

Don't smoke, never have hardly drink - takes me 2 weeks to finish a bottle of wine (hate the taste of beer and I'm an Aussie!) and never have done drugs. Only vice I have is coffee and even with that I now restrict myself to 2-4 cups a day. Never understood why people need all those things to have a good time

Quote from ORION :

/me points at the "remove (demo/)s1/s2 separation" thread from chaos

Yes I was beginning to think I'd been hyperlinked to the improvements section without me being aware of it

Well in a race there is alot more going on in your head and you may not be driving the same as you were in practise (even if you think you were :tilt i.e. your driving doesn't have too change too dramatically for tyre wear to increase significantly and this is very noticable in FWD cars, I've seen quite a few seasoned drives struggle with tyre wear in longer races in FWD cars . So your not alone In real life this very issue is what sets the top drivers apart from the rest of the pack, it's not just fast lap times that win races but fast effecient laps that do

Last edited by B2B@300, Mon 27 Feb 2006, 13:27.

Quote from Moonclaw :

Current license system is good, it's just s2 tracks and cars are so much better, which is why not that many are still using s1.

Also you can access S1 content from S2 so there is no icentive for S2 lic people to populate S1 servers and there is only a small number of S1 users left so there is no choice really S2 or Demo Having said that S2 is well worth it

Both needed I agree

Also I would like to see provision for sever admins to have some comments viewable about their server before you connect

e.g. rules of server, welcome message, team info, etc.

Will have to give you that one Vain