Its Kyoto somewhere. Look at the blue banner under the tire.
Last edited by Gimpster, .
NWR/SCCA Novice School Layout 2006
This is as close to what the track was like as I can get it.
Enjoy
Enjoy
Don't get me wrong, there are tons of other areas of LFS that need some help and have room for improvments. I was just looking at that one feature and seeing how it could be improved to be more useful. Hell autocross is probaly the most accessable form of motorsports for the majority of the people in this comunity. I see no reason it soudl not be at the same level as the other features of LFS.
Tomarrow I should have the WWSSC Novice School layout complete which I ran last weekend. I will post it and the parking lot layout when its done tomarrow.
Autocross Revisited...
The Issue:
This past weekend I had the opportunity to try my hand at autocross at the local Novice School. I enjoyed it very much and am planning to continue in the sport. This led me to take another look at the autocross feature of LFS. I was able to make a good attempt at recreating the layout used for the school and my Miata has similar specs to that of the XR GT. For the most part I was impressed in that I was able to get a very similar time in LFS as I did in my car on the actual track after much tweaking of the car. Score one for LFS.
There were some differences between the feature in LFS and the event I participated in. It would be great if some changes to the autocross feature's functionality and track areas could be made to bring the virtual experience closer to the real one. What follows are the differences and changes I would like to see.
The Autocross Sites:
The first thing I noted is that the autocross sites currently in LFS are not large enough to recreate many of the layouts that have been used in real events. Some sites are long and skinny, some are L shaped, and some are oddly shaped. A single larger lot would be great so that within its boarders we have more space to recreate and define a course on.
The second thing I notices is that the driving surface is very smooth and flat. Most parking or large open lots have varying camber with high and low spots to allow for water drain off. These camber differences and changes can add a lot of personality and challenge to a course layout.
The last thing that I feel could be changed for the better is if the parking stall lines were just removed. They confuse and distract the eye in the simulation environment more so then they do in reality. They also provide a poor reference for laying out a course. I would suggest all painted marking on the lot be removed an in their place a grid of reference points be applied with a 5ft spacing. This point grid need only be visible from within the editor interface. This would aid greatly in designing and building a layout.
Penalties and Timing:
Currently in LFS striking any object aside from the chalk lines and makings result in a 2 second penalty. This is also the only penalty that LFS will and can asses. At the event I attended there were three penalties that could be assessed. 2 seconds for striking a track defining cone, 10 seconds for bypassing a gate or passing on the wrong side of a cone, and disqualification for striking any solid object which in LFS would be any barrier, banner board, tire stack, bail etc. Cones used as pointers or visual dividers/walls did not count as penalties. Now I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that not ever autocross group uses the same rules. To that end I have a few suggestions.
The first thing we need in this part of the feature is to have groups of objects with each group having a designer assignable time penalty, (No Penalty, 1sec to 10sec Penalty or Disqualification). This way the layout designer can assign different penalties for different objects like it works in the real world.
The next thing we need to do is to remove the requirement for sectors and replace them with gates. A gate is an invisible line of a definable width which the driver must pass over. One of these would be present at ever cone or obstacle. For instance if the driver is intended to pass to one side of a cone then the gate would be placed so the one end is under the cone and the other extends out on the side of the cone the driver is suppose to pass or stretched between two cones the driver need to pas between. Failure to pass over this object would incur gate penalty, which the course designer can define, (1sec to 10sec). For a slalom section the gates would be placed from one cone to the next in a line.
With regards to timing in LFS you get a count down to the timer start and then go. This is refered to as a drag start at the event I attended. This club and who knows how many other dislike this type of start. In stead they opt to have the cars start any time after they are cleared to go, turn a 90 degree corner and then pass though the start light. This helps to even the field as your speed is limited and every one has the same opportunity to hit the start light with about the same speed. The finish line is also before the end of the course with a hard 90 degree exit turn. This insures that cars remain in control after the finish line. Penalties are assigned for any cones hit from the time they are given the green light until they exit the course.
To address this I would like to see the following changes to autocross in LFS. The current start and finish triggered should be replaced with 4 triggers.
Start Location: The position the cars starts is to start from.
Timing Start: A Gate used to trigger the start of the race timer.
Timing Finish: A Gate used to trigger the end of the race timer.
Track Exit: A Gate used to trigger final time and penalties calculations.
With these additions the Autocross feature will be dam near reality and will have much more flexibility in its use. At least in my opinion.
This past weekend I had the opportunity to try my hand at autocross at the local Novice School. I enjoyed it very much and am planning to continue in the sport. This led me to take another look at the autocross feature of LFS. I was able to make a good attempt at recreating the layout used for the school and my Miata has similar specs to that of the XR GT. For the most part I was impressed in that I was able to get a very similar time in LFS as I did in my car on the actual track after much tweaking of the car. Score one for LFS.
There were some differences between the feature in LFS and the event I participated in. It would be great if some changes to the autocross feature's functionality and track areas could be made to bring the virtual experience closer to the real one. What follows are the differences and changes I would like to see.
The Autocross Sites:
The first thing I noted is that the autocross sites currently in LFS are not large enough to recreate many of the layouts that have been used in real events. Some sites are long and skinny, some are L shaped, and some are oddly shaped. A single larger lot would be great so that within its boarders we have more space to recreate and define a course on.
The second thing I notices is that the driving surface is very smooth and flat. Most parking or large open lots have varying camber with high and low spots to allow for water drain off. These camber differences and changes can add a lot of personality and challenge to a course layout.
The last thing that I feel could be changed for the better is if the parking stall lines were just removed. They confuse and distract the eye in the simulation environment more so then they do in reality. They also provide a poor reference for laying out a course. I would suggest all painted marking on the lot be removed an in their place a grid of reference points be applied with a 5ft spacing. This point grid need only be visible from within the editor interface. This would aid greatly in designing and building a layout.
Penalties and Timing:
Currently in LFS striking any object aside from the chalk lines and makings result in a 2 second penalty. This is also the only penalty that LFS will and can asses. At the event I attended there were three penalties that could be assessed. 2 seconds for striking a track defining cone, 10 seconds for bypassing a gate or passing on the wrong side of a cone, and disqualification for striking any solid object which in LFS would be any barrier, banner board, tire stack, bail etc. Cones used as pointers or visual dividers/walls did not count as penalties. Now I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that not ever autocross group uses the same rules. To that end I have a few suggestions.
The first thing we need in this part of the feature is to have groups of objects with each group having a designer assignable time penalty, (No Penalty, 1sec to 10sec Penalty or Disqualification). This way the layout designer can assign different penalties for different objects like it works in the real world.
The next thing we need to do is to remove the requirement for sectors and replace them with gates. A gate is an invisible line of a definable width which the driver must pass over. One of these would be present at ever cone or obstacle. For instance if the driver is intended to pass to one side of a cone then the gate would be placed so the one end is under the cone and the other extends out on the side of the cone the driver is suppose to pass or stretched between two cones the driver need to pas between. Failure to pass over this object would incur gate penalty, which the course designer can define, (1sec to 10sec). For a slalom section the gates would be placed from one cone to the next in a line.
With regards to timing in LFS you get a count down to the timer start and then go. This is refered to as a drag start at the event I attended. This club and who knows how many other dislike this type of start. In stead they opt to have the cars start any time after they are cleared to go, turn a 90 degree corner and then pass though the start light. This helps to even the field as your speed is limited and every one has the same opportunity to hit the start light with about the same speed. The finish line is also before the end of the course with a hard 90 degree exit turn. This insures that cars remain in control after the finish line. Penalties are assigned for any cones hit from the time they are given the green light until they exit the course.
To address this I would like to see the following changes to autocross in LFS. The current start and finish triggered should be replaced with 4 triggers.
Start Location: The position the cars starts is to start from.
Timing Start: A Gate used to trigger the start of the race timer.
Timing Finish: A Gate used to trigger the end of the race timer.
Track Exit: A Gate used to trigger final time and penalties calculations.
With these additions the Autocross feature will be dam near reality and will have much more flexibility in its use. At least in my opinion.
Last edited by Gimpster, .
7pm, EST = 4pm, PST = most west coast racers are still at work.
I will be there at the start. My wife and kid might prevent me from finishing.
I think the advantage or disadvantage of the different tires will not become readily apparent until we have varying track and air temps. The colder the track and air are the softer the tire you use. As temps come up progressively harder tires are used. This is true in real racing, RC racing and hopefuly in time LFS as well.
While softer tire grip better in low temetures all tire compounds are designed to provide about the same level of grip when used in the ambiant temp range they were designed to run in. On a hot day a harder tire will get just as soft and sticky as a soft tire does on a cool day.
While softer tire grip better in low temetures all tire compounds are designed to provide about the same level of grip when used in the ambiant temp range they were designed to run in. On a hot day a harder tire will get just as soft and sticky as a soft tire does on a cool day.
Well for it to be felt thought he FF it would need to generate the millions of polys on the fly. But I have to argee.
LFS tracks feel dead to me after driving nK Pro. They feel like they are buttery smooth with no surface texture, grain or variation. Its weird. Even if it does not get represented visualy, I feel it needs to be in the rendering engine from a feeling standpoint I now completely miss this and the other feedback I get in nK, when I drive in LFS.
LFS tracks feel dead to me after driving nK Pro. They feel like they are buttery smooth with no surface texture, grain or variation. Its weird. Even if it does not get represented visualy, I feel it needs to be in the rendering engine from a feeling standpoint I now completely miss this and the other feedback I get in nK, when I drive in LFS.
Viper I am basing what I said, on things the devs have said in the past and is part of their core deveopment stratigy. Features are only added when all supporting features needed to make it work are in place. Pit stops did not appear untill there was a reason to pit, tire wear was not added until tire temp was added, as it was need to calculate the wear rates, etc. Its like putting up a building, there is no point building the roof if the walls and foundation are not yet in place.
This relates to Nitrous Oxide systems in that while they may have a place in LFS they are not found in all forms of racing as such limits need to be in place first, hell their might be other factors as well, like which cars get it, if it should be adjustable, Pill Size, etc. Like wings and downforce I am sure the devs feel, not every car needs it.
Its a dam fine approach that allows the sim to constantly elove in complexity step by step, without having to put in too many placeholder systems which will need to be rewritten down the road as more complexity is needed.
This relates to Nitrous Oxide systems in that while they may have a place in LFS they are not found in all forms of racing as such limits need to be in place first, hell their might be other factors as well, like which cars get it, if it should be adjustable, Pill Size, etc. Like wings and downforce I am sure the devs feel, not every car needs it.
Its a dam fine approach that allows the sim to constantly elove in complexity step by step, without having to put in too many placeholder systems which will need to be rewritten down the road as more complexity is needed.
Accualy they do now have real time tire telemetry. You can even buy systems for your personal car. Now I just need to find the link again.
Ok here it is...
http://www.smartire.com/index.html
Only monitors Temp and Pressure.
External/Surface Temp and Tred Depth can be monitored with other sensors.
Ok here it is...
http://www.smartire.com/index.html
Only monitors Temp and Pressure.
External/Surface Temp and Tred Depth can be monitored with other sensors.
Last edited by Gimpster, .
Come on guys we have been over this subject more times then I can count. Yes there is a place in LFS for it, Drag Racing, but it will not likely be implimented until after there are tool inplace to limit the used of just a feature to either individual tracks or through server side options. For now its a dead subject. The pieces needed to control it are not in place there for it does not YET have a place in LFS.
Then you were not leaving enough space to provide you a margine of safety. Still Your Fault. This is the biggest complaint I have with the user comunity in Sim racing. Every one is so concerned with going as fast as they can that they don't plan for when things happen that are unexpected. In real life fear is the driving force behind this attitude of leaving room, in sim racing that is removed, but should not be.
Untill people in the sim comunity realise that if you want the sim racing experance to be like a real racing experance they will need to think and act like a real racer would, sim racing will continue to be like it is today with wrecks at the start and turn one, crazy insane overtaking attempts will still happen in the wrong places, and close racing will continue to be a crap shoot.
If you want sim racing to be close, fun and exciting then grow up, act like a real racer, show some respect to the other poeple on the track and act like there is more at stake then electrons and polygons. If you can't do that you have no reason to and no ground to complain.
Have a nice day.
I have to agree with Hankster on this one. Its a simple rule, its the same on the track as it as in real life on the street. The person who is physicaly behind in a wrech is 99% of the time at failt. I can not count the number of times I have had to use a slow takeoff or brake early in to a corner to not run over the car in front of me only, to have the car behind me run me over because they are in attentive or in flexable in their racing line to adjust to the dynamicly changing situation.
Simple rule, if you are following and the shit hits the fan and you become entangeled in it, IT'S YOUR FAULT!
Stellios, adjust your gear ratios so that a full throttle start in the car will not cause the wheels to spin and use a mostly locked diff. The idea is to lower the avalable torque at the rear wheels in that gear.
Last edited by Gimpster, .
Well they will still work, but will be far less effective and have some negitive effects. Running with a nose high set will still mean less downforce but the amount of lifting force counteracting the downforce of the undertray will be correctly caculated and applied, resulting in a smaller advantage, which will also have the disadvantage of reducing grip.
The two sims are aimed at different groups of people. LFS is a great racing sim which covers a more broad offering of car types, has good physics and execelent online and player accesability. nKPro is aimed at the more hard core sim racer where realism is more important then easy of use, has a narrower offering of car types, until the devkit is released.
When I just want to log in a race I will load up LFS. When I am looking for a serious racing experance I will load nKPro and plan to spend some time. They both have a place in the comunity, they both will have their strengths and in the end I do not think either will detract from the best aspects of the other.
I will be racing with both.
When I just want to log in a race I will load up LFS. When I am looking for a serious racing experance I will load nKPro and plan to spend some time. They both have a place in the comunity, they both will have their strengths and in the end I do not think either will detract from the best aspects of the other.
I will be racing with both.
nKPro has an interesting solution to the quality issue of user created content. Charge for the dev tools. Only serous modders will pay the cost and ensure quality content is released.
LFS is not support or allow user created cars and tracks until after S2 is final or the sim is abandoned by the devs, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the potential quality of user created mods, licencing issues are any other reason mentioned here. There is one simple reason and nothing we say can or will change then fact, its a dead subject.
What is the difference between then Demo of LFS and S2? It not the features, its not he physics, its the content, the cars and tracks. Now with the only thing you are buying being the cars and tracks, where does that leave the devs if they allow you to make your own cars and tracks?
It leaves them no longer in control of their sim, their dream, their lively hood. It would mean then end of development of LFS and the physics would never improve, new features will never get added and you would have a half finished sim for which you can build cars and tracks.
illepall
Personaly I would rather see the sim finished, with dam good physics, loads of useful features and when its finished a set of dev tools to build then cars and tracks I want to drive and drive on.
What is the difference between then Demo of LFS and S2? It not the features, its not he physics, its the content, the cars and tracks. Now with the only thing you are buying being the cars and tracks, where does that leave the devs if they allow you to make your own cars and tracks?
It leaves them no longer in control of their sim, their dream, their lively hood. It would mean then end of development of LFS and the physics would never improve, new features will never get added and you would have a half finished sim for which you can build cars and tracks.
illepall Personaly I would rather see the sim finished, with dam good physics, loads of useful features and when its finished a set of dev tools to build then cars and tracks I want to drive and drive on.
No problems on a ATI 9600XT 256.
Driver: 8.221.0.0
Driver: 8.221.0.0
It is not hard for a computer to make the judgement between intential and unintential cutting of corners. Its accually rather simple and effective. It need to just consider 2 things.
1) Did the car cross over then inside of a corner off the racing surface.
If yes Ask question 2.
If no end.
2) Did the car reduce throttle when that occured.
If yes end.
If no penalise.
You could then further refine the system to chech for the number of occurance per lap/race and warn or penalise accordingly.
So in the end this puts the driver completely in control of wether they become penalised or not, reguardless of whether the cut was intended, forced or simply an accident. All cuts are examined, all are penalised unless the driver reduces throttle/velocity when it occures. It has worked well for other sims and I see no problem with this system. You went off track whether you intended to or not now you have lost the right to the racing line or position battle. Lift, recover and continue or get penalised for cutting. The choice is yours.
1) Did the car cross over then inside of a corner off the racing surface.
If yes Ask question 2.
If no end.
2) Did the car reduce throttle when that occured.
If yes end.
If no penalise.
You could then further refine the system to chech for the number of occurance per lap/race and warn or penalise accordingly.
So in the end this puts the driver completely in control of wether they become penalised or not, reguardless of whether the cut was intended, forced or simply an accident. All cuts are examined, all are penalised unless the driver reduces throttle/velocity when it occures. It has worked well for other sims and I see no problem with this system. You went off track whether you intended to or not now you have lost the right to the racing line or position battle. Lift, recover and continue or get penalised for cutting. The choice is yours.
The site is in transition from one host to another so is off line. Not sure when that will be done or if the name will be the same. Blame Maverick for that one. :P
Cones, Tires and Corner Markers...
One of the bigest complaints I have with LFS is in reguards to these objects and how they behave in LFS. Most of them feel much heavier then they should be, react strangly when struct and have the ability to cause as much havoc or more then they are designed to prevent.
Traffc cones, pilons and corner markers are mearly visual clues for drivers. They are very light weight and should have little to no impact on a car, yet in LFS they can very easily upset a car to the point where they will poose traction of be turned. This needs to me fixed as they often find their way on to the racing surface. They need to be reduced in weight to the point where they do not affect car handeling if struct.
The bigger issue though I feel is the tires. The way they react is realistic but they use is not done in a safe way. These have been placed on the track to encourage drivers to not cut the corners, I can only asume they will at some point be replaced with propper cutting penalty system and be removed from the track. Until then though I feel a change needs to me made to them for the safty of as all. A way needs to be implimented to keed tire stacks off the roar surface. The most sencible in my mind is to teather them togeather and anchor the tire furthest fromt he track surface. If hit then they will rotate around the anchored tire in the direction they were hit but will not be able to roll on to the track surface to pose a hazard to following drivers.
Traffc cones, pilons and corner markers are mearly visual clues for drivers. They are very light weight and should have little to no impact on a car, yet in LFS they can very easily upset a car to the point where they will poose traction of be turned. This needs to me fixed as they often find their way on to the racing surface. They need to be reduced in weight to the point where they do not affect car handeling if struct.
The bigger issue though I feel is the tires. The way they react is realistic but they use is not done in a safe way. These have been placed on the track to encourage drivers to not cut the corners, I can only asume they will at some point be replaced with propper cutting penalty system and be removed from the track. Until then though I feel a change needs to me made to them for the safty of as all. A way needs to be implimented to keed tire stacks off the roar surface. The most sencible in my mind is to teather them togeather and anchor the tire furthest fromt he track surface. If hit then they will rotate around the anchored tire in the direction they were hit but will not be able to roll on to the track surface to pose a hazard to following drivers.
I would just like to add that the fastest drive does not always win.
The white car despite being faster did not have enough overlap at the turn in to be awarded room thoug the corner. The Blue 7's rear tire hit the White 7's front, clearly less then 50% overlap was achieved. This was entirely the fault of the White 7 though if the Blue 7 had ben paying mre attention he could have left room easily. It was a pissing match, and the White 7 had better postition to come out of it ahead of contact was made. It was and he did. Dirty, dirty, dirty.
I am sure that most of the people asking for a way to make the sim more hardcore do not want it to be the only way LFS can be. I still enjoy racing in less strict races/sprints, but some times I am in the mode for some close clean serious racing. The ability to setup a server to carter to this crowd enable LFS to cater to a wider slice of the population.
I don't want to see LFS become in accesable to any group, drifters, banger racing, auto cross, stunt drivers, KBers, Mousers the casual racer or the hard core racers. I would just like the ability to setup a server to cater more effectivly to each different group. So that people intrested in one type of racing over another can build a place to do so, without having to make it private and then screen people or distribute passwords, etc.
I don't want to see LFS become in accesable to any group, drifters, banger racing, auto cross, stunt drivers, KBers, Mousers the casual racer or the hard core racers. I would just like the ability to setup a server to cater more effectivly to each different group. So that people intrested in one type of racing over another can build a place to do so, without having to make it private and then screen people or distribute passwords, etc.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG