Quote from bandaid :

@Kaynd: I wouldn't worry too much mate. I don't think what we are discussing here actually will come into effect, but it has made for some interesting reading/viewpoints.

You are right. In fact I am not worried that much. It’s just me, bringing out my bad character when I feel helpless knowing that there is no point arguing about some matters because of the ignorance I see, reading many responses in forums generally.

[edit]

Quote from Takumi_lfs :

I would like to see the camber being locked.

here we go... if you are able to change just one spring... even that rated as "hard" in case you do not want to know the stiffness...
Then you are able to put some cheap adjusting bolts that fit in most McPherson strut suspensions and give you usualy a room of +/-1.5 to +/- 3 degrees camber adjustment with absolute accuracy...
There are even some sport oriented cars (nothing exotic) where you have that adjustment ability by factory.

Last edited by kaynd, Tue 23 Dec 2008, 01:49.

Oh yeah… it is getting better and better…
I really hope that this will be a matter that Scawen will not take in consideration the majority and just do what he wants about it, whatever it is.

Excluding those who have some valid points, trying to state their opinion about the reduction of setup freedom according to car classes, the majority of LFS community wants just less settings to be bothered with…
If this sim goes that way (hard-soft or just 3-4 settings to play with) then good by LFS - welcome CMR, Vrally, Toca…

Anyway.

Quote from Gunn :

People who suck at racing will still suck at racing, no matter how uniform the setup options are.

Keep that in mind.

16 damper settings per spring setting? This could work… but 16damper settings available for all the spring settings? This is not going to work unless you have 2 damper settings paired with one spring setting… and this gives hardly any adjustability.

IRL some engineers do the R&D, products are made by that and being sold to customers…
That’s not because you can’t put whatever spring or damper you want… but because it’s just inefficient.
Even in these canned products… you have a perfectly matched damper with a specific spring regarding the weight that it’s going to hold, and then you get 8-16 settings to fine tune your damping. If you put different springs you have to re-valve your dampers in order to match with them, so you can again have that small available range of settings to fine tune your vehicle.
Who is going to play that R&D role in LFS? Why I am not able to do that myself?

The stock road car argument does not really stand, because if you are able to change just one suspension spring then why you can't put whatever you want?
If it is just a stock road car as it came from the factory.- then there should be no available suspension settings… Just like Scirrocco.
If it’s all about car classes then let all settings adjustability free and let hosts decide the limitations, as it happens IRL.

Quote from kaynd :

This feature though, should be accompanied with the ability from the server to store a number of setups that any player who joins can choose after these are stored to the apropriate player's folder (like skins do). That’s because getting in a server where all your setups are out of the limits would be a nightmare and a definite no-no for racing.

If hosts want to have racing activity in their servers, they could just provide a base set for each combo. Problem solved…

Last edited by kaynd, Wed 17 Dec 2008, 23:52.

Quote from Toddshooter :

I'm curious what is wrong with the tires?

Have a look here and here.
My posts are only referring to the tire load sensitivity model.
You can find more opinions on that, just by serching the words "tire model" or "tire load sensitivity".

There is also a problem about the effective slip ratio where the tires generate sufficient grip. We have still perfect starts while full spinning the first gear. There is no reason to limit the tire’s excessive spin in order to get a good start.
This does not mean the slip ratio - grip model is all wrong, Still a locked tire generates significantly less grip. But it need’s to be way more refined.

Also I don't see why drifters can't drift with normal sets... even hard track setups can drift ok just by having a bit higher locking factor at the diffs.

Last edited by kaynd, Wed 17 Dec 2008, 17:28.

Scirocco and any other real car with some real data, is and should remain the exception for having none or limited setup settings.

Now don’t get me wrong. I also believe that the range (not the available amount of values in that given range) of some settings should be narrower so any values can be close to what you may be able to get IRL.
This applies to gearbox and differential settings mainly. There is no way you can get a clutch pach LSD in a car like XFG with 800ΝΜ preload. That’s for sure. But you can easily lock the diff 100%... this is one of the most inexpensive modifications you can do.
IRL no one restricts you doing this. It’s just that sooner or later, trying to park your car you will snap the axels… also it will be almost impossible to steer in low speeds.
Improving the physics is the key here and not just trying to mask any current flaws.
I am completely against on reducing adjustability in springs rates, arb stiffness and damping. Especially damping is what you can change IRL, revalving a set of dampers to fit your needs without that meaning that your car is prepared for racing use.
You may not be able to give all that specific numeric values of stiffness settings in any car but there are ways to finetune any setting, especially in dampers.
Setup freedom is one of the main reasons many of us started to use this simulator.

As for online racing, I think that it would be good idea give the ability of putting setup restrictions from the server.
This is something like the racing classes we have IRL.
e.g There could be leagues/ events/ races where the use of locked diff or anything more than 200nm of preload is banned.
This could take some time, but there could be given absolute freedom from the server settings to define the exact value ranges of any setup option.
e.g You join a server and go straight to garage where you get informations in the background for the restrictions and/or you see them by the numeric values or slider’s color wile adjusting them. eg gray -> off the limits , black-> in the limits.
This feature though, should be accompanied with the ability from the server to store a number of setups that any player who joins can choose after these are stored to the apropriate player's folder (like skins do). That’s because getting in a server where all your setups are out of the limits would be a nightmare and a definite no-no for racing.
This shouldn’t be hard for bandwidth but it might not be as easy to code.

And if this is impossible... (I doubt)
Do whatever you want with the settings in on line mode. Restrict them to none. I don’t care… I will still enjoy racing. (even if multicar racing will be harder that way)
But please! please! Do not take away all the settings from off line mode.

Oh... so you realy need to hear the truth?

No it’s terrible :P


In a more serious mode.
It’s ok some cameras are good and some others are not so
In some shots the action was great and at some others wasn’t that good.
e.g. 00.44-00.54 where is the exiting part there? Or 00:54 – 00:58 Nice angle but for a slow mo video, or for capturing a unique racing moment… not just showing a SO barrier. :P or 00:59- 1:03 This is definitely not a cool racing action shot… it’s just embarrassing for a league like MoE. And then we see a fading flying formula shot…
After that it is getting better building a real commentator “mood” with a mix of nice / interesting and not so interesting action shots. e.g what you want to show us in 1:50 – 1:55 ?

There are some nice shots as I said, but there needs to be more attention on details.

I think you can do better than that.

All I have to say is.
Take your time and make it good.

Quote from Scawen :

Our aim is to make the Scirocco our first car with very limited setup options. The plan is to make it have only the setup options that are readily available on a real road going Scirocco, for example tyre pressures and toe settings. This will mean that the racing should be closer than usual and rely on driver skill, without the need to search for the best setups. Of course this means we need to get the setup as good as possible so it is comparable with the real car.

I have to say that I am a bit disappointed by that, because I wanted to play with Cirroco settings (pleeese make it possible to fiddle with some settings in a special off line mode or something like that) but also I know that this will benefit competition between drivers, without worrying about the setup and this is a good thing.

So just take your time. This has to be good.

Quote from Scawen :

We are pleased to announce that we plan to release the new VW Scirocco in Live for Speed during the week ending Friday 19th December.

You have still to wait at least 4 more agonizing days.

Quote from Hyperactive :

For race_s, you just need to rename them and they are just as fine as they were back then when they were released.

I have all of them renamed. well... I can drive them, but that's not the point. They are still slow (that's not a problem really for the purpose of all round sets) and they do not have nice handling characteristics. (trying to put it in a nice way).

Usually the suspension on them is excessively stiff.
For me race S setups need to be just a little stiffer than the hard track setups, in order to have mild handling characteristics.
They will still be slow… but much easier to handle for someone who needs just to drive a combo for the firs time without having to download a setup

Maybe I should stop talking and start making an easy to handle setup pack myself. This isn’t going to happen till next year though because right now I don’t have my “able to run LFS” PC.

Last edited by kaynd, Mon 15 Dec 2008, 13:27.

Quote from deggis :

Aren't the race_s setups already done by someone else than a dev? Someone from beta test team. I think this was brought up when the race_s setups were introduced in '06 April patch iirc.

I don't really know/remember, but anyway they are obsolete now due to physics changes.
and I have to say that as I see it, there is not much effort put into them (setups).

Last edited by kaynd, Mon 15 Dec 2008, 03:58.

Quote from AndroidXP :

It's not about how easy it is to change the car's behaviour, though - it's about how fine adjustments you can make to the components. This doesn't only affect gearing, it affects nearly every setting currently available. For most of LFS' road cars and the state of tuning they represent you'd have at best a few settings to choose from.

Example current vs. how it should be:
- brake strength adjustable to 1 Nm vs. not adjustable at all
- spring stiffness adjustable to 0.1 N/mm vs. maybe having 5 choices from soft to hard (?)
- damping adjustable to 0.1 Ns/mm vs. maybe having 8 clicks available or less
- anti-roll adjustable to 0.1 N/mm vs. maybe having 6 ARB strengths to choose from or less
- maximum lock, parallel steer, gearing... you get the idea

Reducing the amount of available settings is the easiest thing to do right now…
But I see no point in doing that, especially in that developing state the simulator is.
Having less setup options would only mask the physics flaws.
Apart from that… being in a simulated environment you don’t have to pay for each adjustment – modification you want to do. I see no point in reducing them just for the shake of it.
I agree than in a final product, there could be some restrictions in the available settings according to each car’s class. But that’s after the completion of the physics model.

Also having restricted damper/arb/springs settings, means that these pre-set options should be carefully selected so they match each other.
I very often have to use that 1NM of spring or ARB stiffness in order to balance the suspension for relevant timed weight transfers between the front and the rear ends, in direction changes, regardless the track.

In real life there is a small number of available options because some mechanics do extensive testing on vehicles deciding the specifications of any suspension package will be supplied in the market by any company.
Any adjustable damper is paired with a certain small range of springs. In some cases you may want to re-valve your dampers in order to fit your needs. And I am not even referring to club racing classes… I am just talking about street cars with minor modifications.

Who is going to play that role in LFS?
Having enough experience in lfs setups and seeing how hard track and race-S setup are made, (almost random spring frequencies regardless the damping, plenty of rebound overdamping, not enough suspension travel, random anti roll bars, plenty of bottoming out and poor drivability in general.)
I really hope that Scawen will not decide to play that role… unless he has time… and I mean a really long period of time to find the appropriate settings for the suspension presellected options. And this isn’t going to happen anytime soon because he has got to do many more important things for the development of the sim.

Same goes e.g to suspension geometry changes. Yes you can not change caster to any mass production road car in completely stock form… But if you want, there is almost always a way to change it, using usually inexpensive aftermarket kits. (Not only by changing top mounts of the widely used McPherson struts).
Same goes to camber, although you may not be able to go as far as -5degrees.

Restricting the gearbox ratio settings appears to be the most valid point, because some ratios are even not possible to be produced in any way… Also Ackerman steering could be one of the not adjustable chassis characteristics, like inclination. But I do not see the point even for thiese restrictons.

Quote from Napalm Candy :

Yes, i know what is brake bias. What I want to say is, if rear wheels blocks with brake, but no front wheels, then ABS does not work. I don't know if it is the normal function of ABS... so I say "possible fail on ABS"

It does work. It's the first thing I did try. Use the force view to see... you just do not hear it as much as when locking the front tires.

(I haven't tested backwards braking though )

That’s not the case. The tires still lockup rapidly and you will mess your lines if you do not have enough control over that.

ABS works as it sould do
nice work

The artifacts – polygon problem is solved for me now. (FX5200 @ 16bits) there was no problem at 32bit in patch Z3

This is really fun. Even if it sounds a bit strange, applying top gear logic with best motoring speakers. I really can’t imagine Τsuchiya not knowing how to start a car like that, or Kurosawa (Gan san) crashing a car in a corner like that :P but this is also a fun part
Ι rofled a lot at the last part when Lynce arrived :biggrinfl

nice work

Last edited by kaynd, Sat 13 Dec 2008, 15:34.

One thing that strikes me even more than that bad form of sliding is that there have to be other stationary or slow traffic-like formed cars in the road to fill the layout…
In this racing simulator all of us drive in a simulated environment that is close to what we could or want to be at. Same goes with drifters or autocross drivers.
As I see it, just plain stupid danger mainly for others and yourself, is an important element of arabslidingallovertheplace, as side passing other cars on public roads, while sliding like a lunatic, is the ideal way to go… This is not a sport, this is just stupidity.

I love the addition of any new car. Especially if this is a decent looking, real production car. On of the downsides of LFS is the anonymity of the car models.
It’s not for me but it is for many other peoples. Anyone who loves the LFS as a project, can understand why it is good to attract a wider range of sim racers.
(Considering that, a real track addition would be awesome)

Taking it for my point of view of the sim, the addition of any FWD car and infact, any car right now is not what I need.
Especially FWD cars demonstrate in a very profound way the inaccuracy of the tire load sensitivity model…
It is that bad that I am getting sick every time I accidentally look the setup screen of an fwd car… not to mention driving it.
I realy can’t stand that out of space ability the tires have, to give sufficient grip no matter how high loaded they are. This makes anti roll bars and relevant spring stiffness a useless factor defying the grip distribution between the rear and the front axel. Bouncing, damping and diffs work really well… and that’s about it, the rest of the suspention only controls the bounce rate of the car, tire wear (oh yes) and grip distribution between the two driven by the engine wheels, making differentials the most effective factor of the car’s behavior.

What do we get by this? Exclusively locked diff setups with loads of under steer in the corner entry, even by just lifting off the throttle, not to mention braking… and plenty of oversteer (oh yeah in an FWD car) exiting the corner.
And how to reduce the corner entry understeer and give some more corner exit oversteer? Just increase the front arb stiffness and/or reduce the rear… put some more damping to the harder end to balance out the car’s hoping and weight transitions… and voila the perfect FWD setup.

Consistency is the key you Mr lucky strike

0.204
0.199
0.186
0.207
0.167
avg 0.192

first try now. Not really focused, and rather calm (it's better that way).
But this flash is realy old. I have it in my hard drive at least 4 years now so I have experimented a lot with it in the past.

Quote from Don :

and i wish ive never made them, im so embarrased of those vids.

:eye-poppi:jawdrop: I hope you are joking... these are some of the most inspired vids ever made in LFS.

Great as always :lovies3d:

To have fun with the weird results?

Quote from SlamDunk :

Unusual accident happens to this Citroen rally car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2ELjyTZaSs&fmt=18

Holy s**t

I didn’t mean to make it sad. It’s just the starting line for the body that crosses the face, making a sad expression.

It’s a pity because I love cats :ashamed:

amagad what is this