Quote from tristancliffe :

I could have designed and built a formula ford car when I was about 12. It wouldn't have been any good at all, but I could have done it.

Building a car is EASY. Weld some tube together so that the engine doesn't move about much and some wheels can hold it off the floor, and you have a car.

Making a car quick/strong/flexible/rigid/reliable/good looking/responsive/handle/maintainable/cost effective (not the same as cheap) etc etc is the hard part.

Very true.

But the car they have built cant be crap if its won the championship they enter into for 3yrs in a row.

Why would Motorsport Engineering stop me getting a job in a race team building cars ffs.

Quote from spookthehamster :

Tristan, stop talking crap. You're scaring the boy! (Now I'm going to as well)

Motorsport Engineering can be a decent course, you just have to study it at the right place (and have the right attitude). You should know that, as we both went to the same uni.

However, I don't think I'd want to study it anywhere else than here, as every other uni dumbs it down with too much cars and not enough knowledge. Good if you want to be a mechanic or technician, bad if you want to do real engineering.

As such, I'd still recommend Mech. Eng. degrees at every other uni.

Sam, seriously try to get proper qualifications. I'm sure you can wangle your way into a college to do maths/physics/something else (product design/electronics?). Committing to motorsport so early shows a narrow mind, and if you ever want or need to change jobs you'll be at a disadvantage. Given how quick teams can go bust, you need to be versatile.

The absolute best way to go about it is college -> uni Mech. Eng. (MEng, MSc) degree with a year placement in industry. Any other way will be much harder, and might shut off a lot of opportunities. Big teams will only hire people with 'real' degrees to proper engineering roles, but you stand a chance as a technician/mechanic/manager otherwise.

With regards to the car, get an MX-5 or Mk1 MR2.

The College I'm going out do teach you Maths and Science aswell. You're confusing me like fook lol.

I've been to the college and know everything they offer. Their courses are ran by Bath University. I can't do A Levels because of my grades so have to start at the bottom... I have 2 Cs and rest are Ds. They said after a certain amount of time they can put you into Bath University to do BEng which I've emailed about asking.

Forgot to say something aswell... The University courses the college run are ran by Bath University aswell. So it cant be crap.

There was a Formula Ford car there that the students have designed and built from the ground up. If they don't teach enough, how will they be able to design and build one!

Yeah, I'll need a BEng to hit my dream but thats years away, I want to work my way up through working on Single Seater race cars and finally try to get into GP2/F1 team working on their cars. It's aiming high, but thats what drives me!

You wont talk me out of it lol.

My mate is doing Mechanical Engineering but he really wanted to do a Motorsport Engineering course as it what interests him.

Quote from tristancliffe :

If you want to be designing/building racing cars, then don't do Motorsport Engineering!

If you get a BSc (Bachelor of Science) and then do a Bachelor of Engineering (BEng) in Motorsport Engineering then you won't be fully qualified. Fully qualified is at least when you're a Chartered Member of the IMechE, which takes a few years AFTER graduation even if you do everything quickly and properly.

Experience is important, but modifying a road car won't gain you anything useful to employers.

I don't know my Impreza's well enough to say whether that is a good age range. But I think it is - the ugly one that ploughed on regardless of steering input was a bit later I think.

Blob eye thing... Yeah the old ones are the good'uns lol.

I know me doing my own car will mean nothing to employers, I just want a project to do lol.

After a few years I'll know whether I can move to uni after doing my foundation degree and then see if I can move to Bath University to do a BEng in Motorsport Engineering. Do you reckon that is a better path?

Quote :

E: You'd be better off studying Science/Maths/Technology at A-Level, and/or doing a one year University Foundation of Engineering course rather than wasting 3 years doing a pointless BSc...

I don't have the grades to do A Levels. Hence why I have to do it this way.

Do you have MSN or something similar so can talk about it elsewhere?

Quote from tristancliffe :

It is pointless, because Motorsport Eng is a cop out - you study some aspects of both Mech and Aero, but get none of the detail. Motorsport teams don't want that. The Adrian Newey's of the future (apart from the fact that it's all about management now) will study specific areas in detail, not lots of areas vaguely.

It'll take more than 6 years to be fully qualified, even if everything goes to plan. Most degrees are work based; you have to do lots of work - lectures, homework, placements...

I'm pretty sure Bath University (it is this one?) doesn't win FS every year.

You want to do this course because it has the word Motorsport in the title, not because it'll help you get a brilliant career afterwards.

A road/track car based on a hatchback is essentially chavving it up. Nothing on your degree will be useful (except maybe if you specialise in turbocharging you could be the first Max Power Moron to specify a sensible turbo on their upgrade) to 'track prepping' a hatchback on a student budget.

If you want to build a performance car using your degree, start designing one, order some 25x25x18SWG box section and a MIG welder, and get cracking......

http://www.wiltshire-college-m ... co.uk/courses/default.asp

Thats what I'm doing. It's not because it has motorsport in it... I want to be building/designing race cars! They are the courses, end degree they give you is BSc which I believe is Science but then you can go Bath University to do a BEng in Motorsport Engineering. So will take me 6-10yrs. So I'll be 26-27yrs old when fully qualified which most people in that game are lol.

Also... Yeah you need qualifications but you also need experience which Wiltshire college get you so you can get employed.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Depends on the age. Which version of the Impreza is that one that can't do corners (understeer)? Avoid that version.

Wouldn't suit you? Who cares; an MX-5 isn't a fashion statement, it's a driving experience. Who cares what you look like in it!!! Maybe, if you do, you should be doing a fashion degree or a hairdressing diploma?

It'll be around 1997-2000 mark.

Quote from tristancliffe :

You didn't specify the drivetrain layout in your specs, and 100kg is less than 10% of the Impreza... I'm just saying that quoting specs as you did is utterly pointless. There are 1100kg, 120hp, 30mpg cars around that are brilliant to drive (MX-5) and some that are awful to drive (Korean or East European probably).

You bought yours to look like an old man in an excessively expensive and boring car. And that's fine.

So what would you think about a 2.0 non turbo Impreza then? I reckon a MX5 is a lot better than one but I wouldn't own one lol... Wouldn't suit me at all.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Motorsport Engineering - why not do a proper degree in Mechanical or Aeronautical Engineering?

Silly car to chav up - why? You won't have much disposable income, you will have a lot of coursework (40 hour week of lectures, plus ~40 hours per week of 'homework'), modifying a car for the track ALWAYS ruins it for the road, even before it's any good on the track (i.e. at some point you have a car that is awful on the road AND awful on the track), and none of the stuff you'll learn in your degree course will assist you in chavving up a road car (unless you are planning on designing your own uprights or gear selector forks or suspension geometry)...

Far far better to save your money, get a shite car that is reliable and cheap to run, and join (or tag along with) the Formula Student team (they do have one, right?) and learn about motorsport and not road car modifying (which is for morons). Okay, so Formula Student teams are often filled by people who 'like cars, but don't actually have the first idea about what makes them work, even after a degree course and two years on the team' (so ideal for you then), but it is hands on experience with a rubbish racing car, and club level motorsport teams love that.

If you want to get into professional motorsport, you'll be better off ignoring Formula Student, chavved up cars or Motorsport Engineering.

Not really pointless. I want a career in motorsport designing/building race cars. 6yrs to get fully qualified. When I do my degree a lot of it is work based. So they put you into a team. Yes, they do the student Formula Ford teams and win the championship in it every year.

I want to do this course as its more aimed at what I want to do.

I'm not chavving it up at all... No exterior mods, want to build a performance car.

Very true it would.

Sounds stupid but there was a Micra in the workshop up in the College when I went for interview tour, was a pocket rocket of a rally car and won the championship in its class. So just shows these hot hatches can be just as quick as a Saloon.

What would your thoughts be on doing a ZR track day car? :S

What base model would you think is best? Base model with a different engine bodied etc would be good.

Just deciding on the best car to start a project on. Stick all this modified crap, performance and function of form any day lol.

Quote from Bean0 :

You are correct, the S1 is the 1.3 older shape and the S2 the 1.6 newer shape.
A lot have the GTi engine fitted nowadays.

You do get some standard ones though, one was for sale on the Rallye Register just last month I think.

People do look after them though, they have a bit of a cult following

Hmm... Just done insurance quote on one... A impreza 2.0 sport is a lot cheaper to insure for some reason. VTR/Rallye is £5k :O

Only thing I can think about doing is getting a lower model one and engine transplants (keep all insurance out of this) lol.

Quote from Jakg :

this. this. this. and more this.


Only issue will be finding an unmolested one... but in your case I doubt that'd be so hard

Alot of people only really strip, cage them and then TBs and manifolds. So thats all that would be done to one. The S1 or S2 though... Think thats what they call each mark :S

Quote from Bean0 :

Saxo VTR or 106 Rallye (VTS/GTi most likely too much to insure)

Better to get a 205 GTI than them tbh :S

Yeah, they're the cars I can afford to insure atm... The VTS/GTI is through the roof.

Quote from boothy :

Motorsport engineer? Why the hell do you need a track car, you should be learning and then in your spare time working for a driver/team!

Thats what I will be doing. I'll be 100% commited to it, but still want a decent car lol.

They get you in a racing team for experience, so will also be doing that.

Quote from Jakg :

Do you want speed, or fun?

Anything remotely fast is going to cost the earth to insure.

Both, a fun drive with some a bit of grunt to keep me happy.

The insurance on a 2.0 non turbo Impreza is £1600 FC and goes to £1300FC when I move to Wiltshire. So thats sort of the cars I can insure and thats Insurance Group 13.

But I don't want to make the wrong mistake in buying a car that is unreliable lol. I'm not bothered about fuel, you don't go hunting for a quick car that is good on fuel as it isn't really going to happen lol.

Edit... I see some people make track day cars out of ZRs. But at the end of the day they apparently crush like a tin can in any sort of accident (small or bad) And they're still a tarted up Rover and Land Rover headgasket needs putting on them to be fair.

Hi there,

I'm glad to start off that I scrapped the van lol.

I'm currently driving a 1.6 Polo and it ain't bad apart from the colour lol. Its a weird red and looks slightly pink at times, good polish should sort it though.

Right, as you should be able to see from topic thread, I'm now about to start my path the be a Motorsport Engineer and moving to Wiltshire to do this. I want a decent car to take up there but one that is cheapish on parts but can modify well in terms of performance as I want a sort of road going track car as everything I learn will be shown in the car. I'll live 5 minutes away from Castle Combe and part of the college is on the circuit. So want a car I can take around the track to drive fast and not on the road.

So whats everyone's suggestions. Please, no going off topic and just actual advice on which car I should get which I can enjoy.

I might sound stupid with what I want, but I'm a lad who likes speed haha.

I'm still thinking of a 1.9 GTI 205 but don't know. Can insure a 2.0 Sport Impreza cheap but they aint cheap cars to run and pointless having in any other form apart from the turbo's. Plus every tom dick and harry have them.

Quote from Bawbag :

If your going to change the engine an a car to a differnt one this has to be declared to the DVLA who will have to send you a new V5 stating these changes. I'm pretty sure that insurance companys have some sort of access to the DVLA's database, meaning as soon as the car is registered with a differnt engine the insurance company will know anyway.

So yea, my point is that the cars V5 document will say that the engine is differnt to the size it is, this is what he will get done for, if he ever gets that far.

I would declare an engine, I wouldn't run the risk of not... Struggling to get insurance and maybe even getting banned doesn't seem fun to me. I'll wait until I'm the right age that I can insure an MI16 in a 205.

Quote from Jakg :

Ah hadn't thought about that.

With an engine I can see the issue - but other undeclared mods wouldn't be a criminal offence? (although obviously there would be issues with insurance etc)

I'm sure if they're not performance enhancing mods, they don't actually have to be declared, just best to? Not to sure though.

Quote from Bawbag :

You do realise that 1 YNB will barely put a dent in a policy for any car, never mind a 205 GTI?

Edit, I think there is Jack, because if mods make your policy invalid, then effectively your driving without insurance which is a crime.

It wont help a lot... But it will still help a little.

Quote from BlueFlame :

I wanna know where these numbers are coming from, there's no way thats on a single person policy for a 17yo.. no way in hell.

Under gocompare.com with the same details I have on my van... So exactly same type of policy, just with a 205 GTI put on instead of the van.

I'm wondering though which companies will let you transfer bike NCB over though, as I have 1yr NCB from my bikes I had last year, so if Admiral will transfer them over next year, I'll have a nice cheap policy on my own one. But I'm planning on saving all money up this year to pay insurance off in one next year as I'll be in college.

Quote from Jakg :

Loads of people do it, yes, but as your a named driver your not the main driver.

If you do more miles than the main driver (your Mum) your policy is null and void, much in the same way it would be if you dropped a stupid engine in there.

Oh and you get no NCB, too.

Have fun with that.

Why I'm only doing it for the first year as for some reason my insurance is £1500 next year FC on the van... Dont know how much will be on a 205 on my own policy. This year on my own policy would be over £3.5k Not paying that at all. That is with no NCB aswell.

When I've passed my test? I've already passed it. I'm on a policy with me and my dad as named drivers on my mums policy. Why it is cheaper. Loads of people do it in the first year. Cost to much to have own policy out at 17. Rates are stupidly high.

Oh... I class a keyboard warrior as someone who will give lip over a forum but wont in person. I'm most certainly aint a keyboard warrior. I'll speak my mind and back myself up any where so meh.

Quote from keiran :

Just to add to the reasons why everything should be declared.

Someone ran into the back of my car a month back, damage was very minimal to the rear bumper. When it got assessed the guy checked every detail of the car, tyre condition, tread depth, looked over every panel, had a look under the bonnet and had a wee peak in one of the front wheel arches. All for a ding to the bumper... I wasn't even at fault, so why bother checking it all out? So if you really think you are smart enough to out-wit these guys feel free, but is it really worth paying well over £1000 for insurance, to find when you do need it they say void?

If you get a legit quote for £1200 on this van of yours then I'd be taking it out as soon as I turned 17. My first year driving a 1.2 clio was about £1400. I'm now 21 and my insurance is finally getting more sensible at £450 for a 1.25 fiesta with no claims.

My van is all insured legally for £983.

True what you said though :/

Quote from Jakg :

Except everything deviating from the standard order spec has to be declared - most things you declare the insurers wont care about, wont record or charge for, but you still need to declare them.

You would easily get away with stereo and aftermarket speakers in the doors?

I would imagine aswell, if you got a car that didn't have the say exterior factory options on it when bought and you put them on after, you shouldn't have to declare them? Because if they don't actually have trim levels (although most cars do) but just put the factory options on they wouldn't be able to know that car did, or didn't come out of the factory with those options on?

Quote from tristancliffe :

But most don't make them handle better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And they're usually fitted at home or by morons, so the chance of the failing/falling off is much higher (even on a French built car!)

If I was to fit a aftermarket suspension kit. I'll get the right one, fit it myself, but then take it to a garage to get it all set up properly. Surely a 205s suspension shouldn't need upgrading as already good? Just get the right springs to lower the ride height. But that'll then make the dampers shit for the springs it has on it? As the dampers was made for those particular springs the car was built with, not aftermarket springs?

Quote from danowat :

It was obvious, yet you stated you can't see the point in declaring non engine mods to the insurance?.

Do you even understand the logic?

Some companies as long as they aren't performance enhancing mods... Exterior mods, stereo's, aftermarkets speakers and such like don't actually have to be declared.

For example, say you got a stainless steel replacement exhaust for your car and is different to that, that came with the car as standard, wouldn't need declaring.

Yes, suspension mods etc... Should be declared and it's stupid that they make the insurance more when they are actually making your cars handling better, should bring it down. I know what can and doesn't have to be declared.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The 1.6 is just a sweeter engine. Same with the MX-5, where the 1.6 is nicer than the 1.8 overall, but clearly less performance than the larger engine. Many cars with two capacities result in the smaller engine being nicer.

They might look a bit 'soft', but they didn't win handling contests based on looks.

Not bothered about the looks of a 205. Want it for its handling.

Was just wondering what is the best engine to go for... They're only 15bhp down on the 1.9 anyway, so not much at all.

Quote from danowat :

I tell ya why, because if you have an accident, and the insurance company get anything like a sniff that there are undeclared mods, regardless what they are, then they will declare your insurance null and void, and you'll be in a world of shit

Don't state the obvious. I know how it all works.

Might seem like an idiot. But I'm most certainly aint!

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol

What you meant to say was, your not going to declare anything because you won't then be able to afford the insurance. Nice one.

Hmm... When I know of someone who put a 1.6 in his '1.4' and turbo'd it and didn't declare it, says it all. I will declare things like engines. Do you know me? No! So how can you presume?

Quote from Jakg :

...I think the insurance points was wrt to the crazy mods you had planned...

Yes I know. Engine is very dodgy not to declare, but things like strut braces, new anti roll bars and suspension, yes are suppose to be declared, but I can't really see why.

There are people who put a 1.6 civic engine in the 1.4 and not declare it, but thats because they are IDENTICAL engines in the EKs... Dunno about the EG or newer ones.

If I was to put a MI16 in one, it would be best to declare it as a lot of traffic cops down here seem to know their cars!