Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

Conspiracy theories are reassuring in that they tell us that what is happening is intentional; of an identifiable cause, of a common enemy against which we could fight. Thus, it would suffice to open our eyes to the truth that is being hidden from us for the world to become comprehensible again.

The reality is much more tragic. No conspiracy is necessary for our annihilation. There are no strings to pull, no one at the controls, no pilot in the plane or navigation instruments. All of this would be completely useless. This is why the only button present on our dashboard can only be used to destroy everything just before the big crash. A world so resolutely consumerist cannot know any other destiny nor nourish any other ambitions.

Okay, but then introduce the stated proposals and objectives of the World Economic Forum and the conspiracy theory mutates into a **spoiler alert**

Quote from Snoop.DriftEra :

I definitely have lot to say about it all... But usually people start to fight here or insult one another....)))

Attacks on ideas should be justified and qualified, but attacks on individuals should be ignored.

Quote from bishtop :

Obviously some things are wrong on Ukraines side, such as the use of the Asov Battalion, but that does not justify the war on its people and country

Nobody is attempting to justify any act of war, AFAIK. This is about objectively seeking the truth, even if it's ugly.

Quote from bishtop :

the Asov Battalion [...] should of been dealt with long ago.

Let's just acknowledge that Ukraine's recognition/acceptance/integration of the Azov battalion as a police force was an action, not an inaction.

As with every conflict, diplomacy is the only way to prevent it and it is the only way it is ever concluded.

Quote from bishtop :

Yeah they had been turned into a national guard(Still a volunteer group) and not made members of the Ukrainian armed forces.

Right. Now, go read up on the "Braunhemden". Compare and contrast.

Quote from bishtop :

The Asov battalion is a volunteer battalion and not an offical member of the Ukrainian Forces.

I think that's actually incorrect. My understanding is that the battalion has been integrated into the military and, just as concerning, policing forces in those regions, for some time.

Quote from cargame.nl :

It's quite ridicilous that a majority of western people are all of a sudden pro Ukraine while most didn't know where it was located in the years before. Let alone know anything of the culture, history and especially what happened from 2014 onwards.

This is normal, standard issue behaviour in the form of tribalism, but you are right of course. Today we are shockingly quick - more than we have been for a very long time - to hyper-polarise.

In the UK, we hyper-polarised over Brexit. In the US, the hyper-polarisation was over Trump. Even the identitarians are hyper-polarising between the 3rd-wave feminists and the trans lobby. We are now entirely comfortable with disassociation, excommunication, divestment and cancellation on a grand scale anyone, or any entity, that deviates from our chosen narrative. This is the new normal, and it's catastrophic in every sense.

I'm pretty sure you've gathered this but I feel the need to emphasise it again: I am not pro-Ukraine, nor pro-Russia, I am anti-war.

But yes, there are without question enormous issues with the integration of Azov into the military and police in Ukraine. This integration would be inconceivable in a post-WWII EU country and it is difficult for us to comprehend that this egregious dynamic could form in a modern country. But these are not modern countries with progressive ideals, and with the collapse of the USSR the political void that needed to be filled defaulted to that of 1945 (the preceding regimes/ideologies). The regression began with the Serbia/Bosnia/Yugoslav wars starting in the early 90s and continues now in Ukraine.

Conflict and war had become alien to us in the West, but with the hyper-polarisation and tribalism that we're apparently willing to embrace now, there is a grave risk of it tipping out of "fighting talk" and into actual conflict, particularly in - but not necessarily limited to - the US. It's evident in the rapid uptake of the "I stand with Ukraine" mantra which is so much more conflict-friendly than "I stand against war".

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

Sorry for this anxiogenic message, but it will end very badly, without the shadow of a doubt. A third world war, the total collapse of Putin Russia and / or decades of crises, wars, famines and various shortages that will lead to a new world order even more authoritarian and more violent.

I fear you may well be right. What is happening in Ukraine cannot be allowed, and yet the West has no idea how to prevent it.

There are fundamental and core incompatibilities in understanding how the world works, between the West and Russia. The most glaring of these is in the sanctions against Russia. Our Western governments think that hurting the Russian oligarchs' bank accounts will encourage them to pressure Putin. This is because, in the West, corporate interests control the direction of politicians through lobbying and corruption.

But the Russian oligarchs are in the positions they are in because they obey Putin, not the other way around. ALL the Russian people, including the oligarchs, could agree with the West about Putin and about Ukraine and it will make NOT ONE IOTA of difference, because Putin disagrees and it is Putin who calls ALL the shots.

Whether engineered or not, we are in the early stages of The Great Reset. I once thought this was a conspiracy theory but it makes no difference now because we're in it. "You will own nothing, and you will be happy." Well, I'm not happy.

Ahh! I have come to love Russell Brand of late. I was quite angry with him over "Manuelgate", but that's a long time ago and I think he's broadly redeemed himself since then (and I think a path to redemption is essential, which is why I oppose "cancel culture").

I don't think I align with him politically (yet, but he may come around! ) but I think he's embarked on a wonderful journey of discovery. I don't think he's said as much but it seems to me that Brand is a fallibilist (https://iep.utm.edu/fallibil/). I appreciate that about him. Hold strong opinions, but lightly - be willing to quickly let go of them if they turn out to be wrong.

Regarding the 2nd video, I'm watching now. I don't really know enough about anarchism (like most anarchists I know) except where it intersects with libertarian philosophies, and I'm certainly not a libertarian.

WRT arms sales I think it's essential to distinguish between a private company which manufactures weapons, a government which licences the company, the civil servants who benefit from cronyism, and the citizenry who neither have any say nor reap any benefit (and typically have scant knowledge of the sale). None of it is excusable or justifiable, IMHO. Being solutions-focused, I have no idea where to start.

Quote from bishtop :

apologies if i had come across as argumentive and like i wasn't listening to what you had to say , it just took me about 10 post to untangle my thoughts on it

Likewise! I spend a lot of time thinking about these things, but I'm not used to sharing them these days! If I've offended, I apologise!

Quote from bishtop :

I guess that by me saying that it was right for him to ban the parties was wrong, but i do think that with the current situation its necassary. The parties he banned are ran by close friends/allies of Mr Putin

I do appreciate that it may seem expedient in a time of war, but these parties earned their places in parliament through an open and fair election process - something that Ukraine fought for, and won. They have earned the right to express their support/opposition and they must be heard, even if we disagree with them. We also have that right, because nobody's free speech is above criticism. The way to defeat bad ideas is with good or better ideas - ideas that the majority of people can agree on. That's democracy.

Quote from bishtop :

dictatorship tyranny inequality unfairness is the opposite of democracy , both the UK and Ukraine don't have the first two, the latter 2 i think most have

I agree that unfairness and inequality are challenges in every society, and I do think they're good metrics by which to judge a society.

But banning political parties from presenting at the ballot box is entirely the first two. ANY move in that direction is the WRONG direction.

I forget who, now (Alexandr, I think?) made the point earlier in this very thread, that free speech as a core human right is not in place to defend words you like, it is to defend words you DON'T like. This is such an important and well-made point.

Quote from bishtop :

The point i was trying to get across ( i admit, not very clearly) is that parties can be banned(whether right or wrongfully), but still have something resembling democracy and be nothing like what Russia has had to endure.

And - as an advocate for democracy - I wholeheartedly and unequivocally disagree.

[edit] Well not wholeheartedly. But my point is that the democratic process is what it is, and banning any political party for any reason, when its weight can be judged fairly at the ballot box, is fundamentally and unequivocally anti-democratic.

Ahh wait, nope I'm not arguing that Britain is a beacon of democracy. I wouldn't ever claim that. It's not. Far from it.

It's supposed to be, and a lot of people (like yourself) falsely believe that it is, but it's not. But with that said, it's better than many.

I'm really not one to entertain this "whataboutery", though. Britain doesn't need to be without fault for me to point out the abject failures of other nations. The point is that I support the democratic process, and I oppose breaches and failures of the process, both home and abroad.

Quote from bishtop :

Or like the UK for example, who has also banned 50 political parties.

If you can find anywhere where I suggested for one moment that I supported Britain's ban of ANY political parties, now would be a really good time to point that out.

Quote from bishtop :

So we should allow Neo nazi and racist parties to have a chance in government ?

I kinda feel like I'm just repeating myself, which is why I said you should go and find out what democracy means before we can proceed.

I don't think any neo nazi or racist party stands any chance at forming a government. But the democratic process REQUIRES that they be permitted to stand.

If you disagree, that's fine. I just think it's important that you dissuade yourself of the notion that you support democracy and the democratic process when you don't at all. It rather seems like you're an anti-democratic supporter of tyrannical systems (much like Russia, for example). Sorry if this comes as bad news, mate.

Quote from bishtop :

Still haven't answered my question

And are you saying that when you ban political parties it means democracy has been abandoned.

So guess that counts the same for the UK with around 50 banned political parties and the USA with

I did answer your question, but because you have no concept of democracy, you're unable to conceive of my reply.

But for the avoidance of doubt, YES! You have abandoned the democratic process when you ban political views from participating in the process.

Quote from bishtop :

And its suspended the groups legally under martial law

"we will defend our democracy by abandoning democracy!"

lol

The right to protest is fundamental in democracy.

The right to express opposing views is fundamental in democracy.

The right to have political representation is fundamental in democracy.

Again, when you understand the meaning of democracy, come back. I can re-type it in ALL CAPS if you think it would help.

Okay, come back when you have the faintest grasp on the meaning of "democracy", and then - if and when we establish a common understanding that the democratic process is preferable to the authoritarian tyranny you seem to be proposing - we could conceivably have a conversation about how to proceed.

Quote from bishtop :

I quote " including the pro-Russian ‘Opposition – Platform For Life’ " so that would be allowing russia in. You do know how Russia has overtook area's of Ukraine in the past by installing Pro-Russian mayors.

By allowing like Pro-Russian members of the government, you're essentially surrending.

Surrendering to what? Democracy?

If you don't want pro-Russian politicians in your parliament, you do better. You BE better. Beat them at the ballot box. It's supposed to be the very thing that sets you apart from them.

Wow.

Obviously you're just not keeping up.

Quote :

Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelensky has banned eleven opposition parties

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-zelensky-s-party-crackdown-his-first-mistake-

Quote from bishtop :

why wouldn't he ?

Because while the most important thing here is to stop the war and its associated loss of human life, this distinguishes between Ukraine surrendering and Russia withdrawing. If you're just going to abandon the rights and freedoms associated with the west, you may just as well put the guns down and let Russia in. If you don't have rights and freedoms, you might just as well be part of Russia.

Last edited by SamH, Wed 23 Mar 2022, 16:15.

I'm just going to register my opposition here, to Zelenskyy's latest acts of media censorship and banning of political opposition. It's unacceptable in Russia and it's unacceptable in Ukraine.

Voices advocating for a diplomatic solution, and for and end to killing, ON BOTH sides, must not be silenced.

Quote from Scawen :

OK I give up.

Full marks for effort.

Quote from dfgjkl :

yes yes he did it and you are not interested in the reasons why he did it ...

It doesn't matter what reasons he gives, what he has done is unacceptable to the ENTIRE world. Look around.

When EVERYONE disagrees with your rationalisation, but you STILL think you're right, it means you're a psychopath. No reasonable person could believe Putin did the right thing or for the right reason.

Stop the killing and get psychological help.

Quote from detail :

The irony is that he explained that his poor Russian writing (couple pages earlier) is because he lives somewhere there, I guess in "the West". It's even more ironic to promote war without any commitment and in safety of the "enemy" country.

It's possible! We are not immune from authoritarianism challenging and defeating our freedoms. The younger generations in the West are also losing sight of what freedom means. Notions of ideas being "dangerous" - entirely antithetical to free expression - are becoming commonplace (even in this thread). We hear constantly of a "war on misinformation" in the West. But "misinformation" is not necessarily a lie; it can be a truth which is inconvenient to the regime or which deviates from the "official" narrative.

I don't know what the answer is. I just know we must have the freedom to always question it.

Quote from dfgjkl :

You have a biased attitude towards Russians. Consequence of the influence of Western propaganda.

I think perhaps you mean that I have a biased, westernised attitude towards freedom. We could agree on that.

Quote from dfgjkl :

Quote :

The Ostankino court fined Marina Ovsyannikova, who burst into the air of the Vremya program with an anti-war poster, 30,000 rubles. But she was not judged for this. The protocol was drawn up for her video message, recorded before the performance, where she urges people to take to the streets. For a repeated violation (that is, the same live performance), she may face a criminal offense.

The editor (now, apparently, the former) of Channel One was found guilty under Part 2 of Art. 20.2 of the Code of Administrative Offenses (organization of an unapproved public event). She pleaded not guilty.

As a person who is not free to think, or to share what you believe with all around you, I imagine you might think that this is reasonable.

But to those of us (AKA "the West") who have the freedom to think and the freedom to express our thoughts openly, this is an incomprehensible breach of basic human rights. Almost all of us do not want your way of unthinking brought closer to us.

Isn't it interesting, that YOU are able to use the thing WE value to argue AGAINST that very thing we value? You think you don't need Western values, but you live and breathe them here. That thing you hate - our freedom - is your oxygen.

Ironic.

Quote from bishtop :

What makes you think zelensky is not in charge ?

This is called "cognitive dissonance" and is the confusion experienced when someone is presented with a truth which is incompatible with a belief. In order to maintain the belief, an ancillary belief is required.

My favourite example from recent history was during Brexit. My friend believed that Nigel Farage was a xenophobe AND a hypocrite. He believed absolutely that Farage hated foreign people, especially Europeans. When confronted with the fact that Farage had married a German, the only viable explanation was that not only was Farage a xenophobe, he was also a hypocrite.

For this reason, Zelenskyy cannot be in charge, because it is not possible for a Jew to be in charge of a nation of Nazis.