The inside wheel loses traction under *no* power. That means *any* amount of power automatically causes excessive tyre scrub. That is not at all 500 hp. Very far from it.
And regarding Bob's reply: That's axus' set. It's just as stiff/low as any other set. Actually, the problem that the inside wheel loses traction regardless of lateral force arises with every set. On Westhill this translates into heat though because there are many long corners that are driven under throttle.
Of course I could always apply fewer throttle, but this isn't about sunday driving. Fact is, I have traction left on the outside wheel but the inside wheel is already well beyond it's capabilities even before I apply throttle at all. That immediately leads to the fact that a high locking factor is the way to go.
And regarding Bob's reply: That's axus' set. It's just as stiff/low as any other set. Actually, the problem that the inside wheel loses traction regardless of lateral force arises with every set. On Westhill this translates into heat though because there are many long corners that are driven under throttle.
Of course I could always apply fewer throttle, but this isn't about sunday driving. Fact is, I have traction left on the outside wheel but the inside wheel is already well beyond it's capabilities even before I apply throttle at all. That immediately leads to the fact that a high locking factor is the way to go.
Hello.
I've been toying around with setups lately because I also dislike the behaviour of high-locking diffs. However, I ran into a problem.
The symptom is that the inside rear tyre keeps heating up immensily while accelerating out of corners.
To see wether it was my mistake or a methodical problem I compared my sets to yours. I'm attaching a screenshot of the forceview of your latest XRT setup on Westhill Rev. Notice that the longitudinal force is about zero and that the loaded outside rear wheel has large amounts of traction left, but the inside wheel is easily overwhelmed by even very few lateral force. That means, even at 0% throttle the inside wheel limits traction.
Any attempt to accelerate out of the corner would cause the inside wheel to spin up because even now it's beyond it's traction elipse. The point now is that the lower the locking factor the higher the torque on the inside wheel will be and thus the more power will be squandered as tyre-heat.
Under these circumstances the ideal solution would be a locked diff, as it'd keep the torque at the unloaded wheel as small as possible which means that the most possible amount of power will be used to accelerate the vehicle.
You can experience that yourself by using a variety of sets on a track. Start with a low locking set and notice that the inside wheel is always hotter than the outside wheel (e.g. with your 42% locking diff on the XRT), add more locking and notice that by the time you reach the locked diff the outside wheel is always hotter than the inside wheel. What happened is that as you increased power locking you used less engine power to heat the spinning inside wheel and turned it into actual acceleration instead.
I'm wondering wether this is a real life problem or are the LFS-friction coefficients simply wrong for very low tyre loads?
Vain
I've been toying around with setups lately because I also dislike the behaviour of high-locking diffs. However, I ran into a problem.
The symptom is that the inside rear tyre keeps heating up immensily while accelerating out of corners.
To see wether it was my mistake or a methodical problem I compared my sets to yours. I'm attaching a screenshot of the forceview of your latest XRT setup on Westhill Rev. Notice that the longitudinal force is about zero and that the loaded outside rear wheel has large amounts of traction left, but the inside wheel is easily overwhelmed by even very few lateral force. That means, even at 0% throttle the inside wheel limits traction.
Any attempt to accelerate out of the corner would cause the inside wheel to spin up because even now it's beyond it's traction elipse. The point now is that the lower the locking factor the higher the torque on the inside wheel will be and thus the more power will be squandered as tyre-heat.
Under these circumstances the ideal solution would be a locked diff, as it'd keep the torque at the unloaded wheel as small as possible which means that the most possible amount of power will be used to accelerate the vehicle.
You can experience that yourself by using a variety of sets on a track. Start with a low locking set and notice that the inside wheel is always hotter than the outside wheel (e.g. with your 42% locking diff on the XRT), add more locking and notice that by the time you reach the locked diff the outside wheel is always hotter than the inside wheel. What happened is that as you increased power locking you used less engine power to heat the spinning inside wheel and turned it into actual acceleration instead.
I'm wondering wether this is a real life problem or are the LFS-friction coefficients simply wrong for very low tyre loads?
Vain
Someone must've failed at geography...
Compare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger
Vain
Compare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger
Vain
I'll use this topic to drop a thought on the existing cars that I came up with patch Y:
Before patch Y we could never quite settle on wether the roadcars are racecars or not. One faction drove the same cars on cruise-servers, pretending to drive completely stock every-day vehicles and the others drove them in racing championships, using them as if they were proper race cars.
By now LFS has reached such a degree of detail that it can't keep both interpretations up. We have different sorts of gearboxes for the roadcars, different clutches, no F11-menu and different rev-limiter-characteristics.
That means that, especially if this trend continues, LFS is in serious need of club-style race cars. Most racecars aren't XFR-style cup-vehicles or FZR-style GT-monsters. Most racecars are every-day XRTs with 200kg of interior stripped from them, a new engine mapping, a roll cage and new extra-few-tread tyres, along the lines of Kumho ECSTA V 70 A or something similarly road-legal but not useful in the wet, on them.
So I conclude LFS should introduce race-car variations of the existing roadcars.
Then, along the way the roadcars could be fitted with proper stats and setuprestrictions. I still don't think the XRT should get 245 bhp from 2.0 litre. The Starion got 180 bhp from 2.0 litre. So either our version is a racing-version, in which case there is no reason for second seat, the lack of a roll-cage and the removal of the F11-settings or this is a road-version with wrong power-figures.
Basically, what I'm saying is that we're driving cars that were designed for the demo years ago. LFS has changed a lot and we need cars that fit into LFS's reality of today. We need club-style race cars, we need touring cars, we need everyday road cars.
Vain
Before patch Y we could never quite settle on wether the roadcars are racecars or not. One faction drove the same cars on cruise-servers, pretending to drive completely stock every-day vehicles and the others drove them in racing championships, using them as if they were proper race cars.
By now LFS has reached such a degree of detail that it can't keep both interpretations up. We have different sorts of gearboxes for the roadcars, different clutches, no F11-menu and different rev-limiter-characteristics.
That means that, especially if this trend continues, LFS is in serious need of club-style race cars. Most racecars aren't XFR-style cup-vehicles or FZR-style GT-monsters. Most racecars are every-day XRTs with 200kg of interior stripped from them, a new engine mapping, a roll cage and new extra-few-tread tyres, along the lines of Kumho ECSTA V 70 A or something similarly road-legal but not useful in the wet, on them.
So I conclude LFS should introduce race-car variations of the existing roadcars.
Then, along the way the roadcars could be fitted with proper stats and setuprestrictions. I still don't think the XRT should get 245 bhp from 2.0 litre. The Starion got 180 bhp from 2.0 litre. So either our version is a racing-version, in which case there is no reason for second seat, the lack of a roll-cage and the removal of the F11-settings or this is a road-version with wrong power-figures.
Basically, what I'm saying is that we're driving cars that were designed for the demo years ago. LFS has changed a lot and we need cars that fit into LFS's reality of today. We need club-style race cars, we need touring cars, we need everyday road cars.
Vain
Looks great, dan. Keep it up. 
But I want to leave a comment about the running itself:
- Don't start running on concrete until you have done a lot of practice. Unexperienced runners cause a lot too much strain on their joints, even on a soft surface. Concrete/tarmac can really cause damage to unexperienced runners so avoid it until you can do the 6 miles on a soft surface and then gradually add more hard surfaces.
If you have no forest-areas in your vicinity it's completely alright to drive a little outside with your car before starting the training. Don't damage your knees over wrong pride.
- I'd also suggest to do the running outside. The movement of your legs is quite a bit different when ascends are involved. When the route of the run leads over hard surfaces it's imperative to have developed a leg-movement that avoids strain on the joints, even on inclinations. Also, of course, I think it's a lot nicer to jog in a forest than in some damp room while staring at a stupid displaying-device that tells me when I can stop without hurting my self-esteem
.
But I want to leave a comment about the running itself:
- Don't start running on concrete until you have done a lot of practice. Unexperienced runners cause a lot too much strain on their joints, even on a soft surface. Concrete/tarmac can really cause damage to unexperienced runners so avoid it until you can do the 6 miles on a soft surface and then gradually add more hard surfaces.
If you have no forest-areas in your vicinity it's completely alright to drive a little outside with your car before starting the training. Don't damage your knees over wrong pride.
- I'd also suggest to do the running outside. The movement of your legs is quite a bit different when ascends are involved. When the route of the run leads over hard surfaces it's imperative to have developed a leg-movement that avoids strain on the joints, even on inclinations. Also, of course, I think it's a lot nicer to jog in a forest than in some damp room while staring at a stupid displaying-device that tells me when I can stop without hurting my self-esteem
.Are they? Look up the distance per track. There are quite a few lot long tracks in the top 10.
(Though Fe Black doesn't count into the racing statistics. It's still popular though.)
I realize that the request has been there forever and came up often enough to even go on my nerves, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. I simply can't see why we shouldn't have 1970's LMP-cars on a Nordschleife 1000km race. The Nordschleife was a very popular place for touring car races until the late 80s and no GPL-driver in their right mind has ever complained that the Nordschleife is unmanageable or not a great drive.
The continous Nordschleife-threads are also getting on my nerves, but the request itself is valid.
And by the way, saying LFS shouldn't have more tracks due to lack of usage of the ones it has is a little bit on the wrong train of thought, I think. Personally I don't drive as much LFS as I'd like to because LFS lacks content. And yes, I've done XRG on Fe Black Rev and LX6 on As GT Rev.
[Edit]
And a more constructive note: The Nordschleife originally was part of the old Nürburgring, which was composed of the Nordschleife and the lesser known Südschleife. For the GPL-drivers, the Südschleife connects to the GPL-version at the 180°-turn after start-finish. The Südschleife is nowadays gone and decayed (there are still a few tarmac strips somewhere in the Eifel, if you know where to search) and I'd hazard the guess that there are no legal claims on it by any party. I believe it would be a great concept to use a simulator to let old and gone tracks arise from the ashes in digital form. That would bring quite a lot of publicity since there is no other way to experience that piece of motorsport-history anymore.
If you want to take a look, look at this link. Sorry, there are no english websites about this track. But I discovered an article about it in the english magazine "Motorsport" here.
Last edited by Vain, .
See? That's how the imaginary content in LFS protects our community from such noobs.
Vain
Vain
Congratulations to driver and team.
Vain
Vain
No, it's not difficult at all once you have learned the mysterious art of 'going slowly'.
I'd be up for a RBR competition. Though I must say I really dislike the modded content. I'd rather stick with the original stuff.
Vain
I'd be up for a RBR competition. Though I must say I really dislike the modded content. I'd rather stick with the original stuff.
Vain
Good work. I can't wait to give the XFG the weight distribution of a Lancia Delta HF Integrale, a turbocharger and Road Super tyres.
Even now it's huge fun toying around with a 215 hp- (well, that's the Evolutione Sedici, but heh
) -AWD-XFG. Huge fun to drive.Keep it up.
Vain
I don't drift a lot, but sometimes I wish the rev-limiter was higher because I want to stretch a gear between two corners. Going 300 rpm beyond the ideal shift point is more senseful than shifting twice or adjusting the gear-ratios in some situations.
However, I don't think the limiter should be raised on all cars because the setting of the rev-limiter on real cars depends a lot on the specific car. On some it's 700 rpm beyond the red line, on some it's only 150 rpm before the power is cut.
My conclusion: The rev-limiter should be used to give the cars more character to improve their respective unique feel.
In short:
Think about what character the different cars should have and raise the rev-limiter for those cars that should be able to handle it.
Vain
However, I don't think the limiter should be raised on all cars because the setting of the rev-limiter on real cars depends a lot on the specific car. On some it's 700 rpm beyond the red line, on some it's only 150 rpm before the power is cut.
My conclusion: The rev-limiter should be used to give the cars more character to improve their respective unique feel.
In short:
Think about what character the different cars should have and raise the rev-limiter for those cars that should be able to handle it.
Vain
I would've loved to participate but unfortunately I won't be home on the 22nd. So I have to pull out of this event.
Vain
Vain
Just a comment:
The german company SGF produces such couplings and I'm pretty sure they deliver parts to several main south-german automobile companies. They'd propably share information on the torsional rigidity of the coupling and the dampening-coefficient of the used material if you'd ask them nicely.
Speak up if you want someone german-speaking to ask them. I'm sure there are many people around here who'd love to support LFS.
Also, I just looked up something from a lecture at university about vibration-simulation of drive-trains. In the presented model with guideline-values they have a torsional spring with a stiffness of 1*10^3 Nm/rad between engine and clutch (clutch included).
Vain
Last edited by Vain, .
I feel obliged to make a post and stress the statement in my signature.
Vain
Vain
That race was the first time I came in as the first XRT since round 3.
Also, it was the first time I've been able to finish in a RallyX event.
Great broadcast, great commentary. You've worked pretty well as a team.
And Tristan's last sentence was hilarious.
Vain
[Edit]
Chris: Change your avatar. It's scaled down so much that I read "CTRA - pointless", which isn't quite the message you are trying to transfer, I think...
Also, it was the first time I've been able to finish in a RallyX event.
Great broadcast, great commentary. You've worked pretty well as a team.
And Tristan's last sentence was hilarious.
Vain
[Edit]
Chris: Change your avatar. It's scaled down so much that I read "CTRA - pointless", which isn't quite the message you are trying to transfer, I think...
I'll take part.
cP Vain, vain
Vain
cP Vain, vain
Vain
Here are a couple of Nordschleife-onboard videos, hosted on a german site. It's all Nordschleife, so you can't click on the wrong link, really .
My recommendations:
- Lamborghini Gallardo
Just a nice car. Good sound too.
- Porsche 996 GT3 Supercup
Including a view on the driver, so you can see him change gears.
- BMW 318ti compact
Entry level Nordschleife-racing. If you have 10000€ on your bank-account you can do this for a year and will likely have something left over. It also shows that you can have great races on that track, even if you have only 140 bhp (~XRG).
Vain
.My recommendations:
- Lamborghini Gallardo
Just a nice car. Good sound too.
- Porsche 996 GT3 Supercup
Including a view on the driver, so you can see him change gears.
- BMW 318ti compact
Entry level Nordschleife-racing. If you have 10000€ on your bank-account you can do this for a year and will likely have something left over. It also shows that you can have great races on that track, even if you have only 140 bhp (~XRG).
Vain
Congratulations and best wishes!
Vain
Vain
Yes, please try to find out author and title.
I'd like to know what sort of tyre it is. Radial or crossply? What sort of tread, if any? What sort of compound? Width? Pressure? Tyre wall height? Any information, actually.
Thanks for posting the picture.
Vain
I'd like to know what sort of tyre it is. Radial or crossply? What sort of tread, if any? What sort of compound? Width? Pressure? Tyre wall height? Any information, actually.
Thanks for posting the picture.
Vain
That's low...
Half a year ago you were a championship contender in the propably biggest broadcasted racing series in sim-racing at the time and now you have to keep yourself in the public media with cheap black-XRT-drifting-flicks...
They rise and fall...
And next week we'll create a drifter-rehab group with the motto "Friends don't let friends do drifts".
( )
Vain
Half a year ago you were a championship contender in the propably biggest broadcasted racing series in sim-racing at the time and now you have to keep yourself in the public media with cheap black-XRT-drifting-flicks...
They rise and fall...
And next week we'll create a drifter-rehab group with the motto "Friends don't let friends do drifts".
(
)Vain
You just described the LX4.
The MRT is very difficult to drive due to the excessively short wheelbase. The LX4 is a lot more stable and less prone to uncorrectable lift-off oversteer. Both cars are rediculously bad without a proper set, but with a good set I think the LX4 yields more action per minute of practice.
I voted against the BF1 series. The car requires a lot (!!!) of practice until you can stay flat on the limit for 30 minutes straight. I'm sure we could get some awesome races if we all practiced for several hours for each event, and by season 2 we might be able to have actual wheel-to-wheel fights, but there are easier ways to get there.
Vain
There you go, that's two of three.
(
)Vain
Last edited by Vain, .
So awesome! So awesome!
Vain
Vain
Again, amen to that.
It always strikes me as completely rediculous to race in cars that have no cage, no fire extinguisher, no external fuel-pump-trigger, no quick-release for the engine-hood, no towing hook, but stereo and back seats. It's unsafe and slow.
(And anyone who tries to tell me that safety isn't a point in a virtual enviroment may from now on only drive without race-suit or helmet and must at all times state that the GTR class is rediculous because those cars have rollcages.)
Vain
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG