Quote from cannonfodder :

The essence of racing IS the final position. That's what all the drivers are aiming for in a race, the big cup at the end of the road. One of your examples mentioned Schumacher getting points after crashing out. If one crashed from his own driver error and no fault of equipment or other drivers, why should a driver be awarded any points at all? illepall

If you stick to your understanding firmly that points should be awarded by and only by the final positions, then there's really not much I could say, but then maybe the only thing you should do is to tune in just before they take the chequered flag to see the results.

Of course you don't do that, fans will be watching the action right from the start. But do you ever ask yourself why you have to watch the whole race when only the final position counts? This question ain't as dumb as it sounds. Think about it, racing is MORE than just to see who finishes where, the process of racing is as important as the final outcome of it. It was the passion to travel faster that inspired people to take part in a race, it was those brillliant moves done on the track that caught our eyes and something we were cheering for, it was the raw pace that was shown at any time in a race that got us excited and waiting for a close fight. This system not only rewards those who are ultimately the fastest, the winner, but also rewards those who actually do racing. I think we could well add final standing rewards for the top 6 or top 8 finishers, please don't be carried away that this system don't reward the final standings.

Schumacher at Melbourne just before he crashed out was the fastest man on track, among a lot others who were just also-runs and paraded for finish Schu gave us excitement and looked a big threat to Jenson. He showed his speed and drove exceptionally before his crash, he earned provisional pts in the process, OK he crashed, fair enough, he then lost any opportunity to score more, but what he had done can't be denied. When it's due, pay him!

Quote from typhoonf1 :

Someone up there ^ has proved that you can get more points by being 2nd for a lot of the race and then finishing last, this would lead to drivers doing well (like Alonso) and then backing off completely in the last 10 laps to conserve engines etc., knowing that 'on average' it will have a very small effect on their points.

As already said above, settling for 2nd means you lose out 5 extra pts, or roughly 6 pts in total, or if the winner sets the FL 9 pts to the man in front of you. At this rate, Alonso's lead of 21 pts on the tally will be cut to only 2 pts with 2 races.

Quote from typhoonf1 :

Another point is the effect on a drivers psyche when they finish the race first after passing someone on the last lap to find that 'on average' they still finished second (say the 2nd place man gets FL and the winner was not always in 2nd). Then who stands on the podium? The last lap, 'do or die', passer who crossed the line first under a checkered flag and his moment of glory....or the man who gave it up on the last lap and finished second but still gets the top step of the podium? Thats the essence of racing surely....first to the finish. Anything else becomes an extended time trial.

You missed the all important part again my friend. It will be extremely abnormal for a winner not earning the most points, as the Japnese race last year shows. The podium men will always be the top 3 finishers, and the system can be tweaked to award podiums, for example a 5-2-1 distribution or other variations.

As for the essence of racing, it is not necessarily only the final position. As for the first to finish, yes this system will reward him big time.

Last edited by wE1l, Tue 6 Jun 2006, 13:18.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Firstly I have to appologise, I couldn't be bothered to read all of the thread.

The proposed system would encourage unreliable cars and we'd be left watching that Kyalami race all over again, or the German GP where most of the field went to carbon heaven in the first corner, or the American tyre fiasco GP where the simple amazement that it happened was more interesting than the entire grand prix in full compressed in to a 10 second information under-dose highlights programme.

Hmm...it will encourage fast cars, if a team ignores reliability I doubt it could ever win a race.

Quote from Rob76 :

Hi Well,

You seem to really believe in your system (saw you unleash it on Atlas F1 until bira closed you down ) but I think it would be a little too complicated to keep the viewers informed of the ongoing points situation during the race. FOM sometimes struggles with just timing graphics, so god knows how they'd manage to present the points live during the race. And those actually at the trackside would be completely lost.

I like the idea that a driver is encouraged to make up places and drivers get something even if they hit reliability problems, but I fear it would be just too complicated for most viewers.

Maybe a point system that gives points for all classified finishing positions, rather than just the first 8, and maybe even points for position at certain stages of the race, can help battle the apparent unfairness of being struck by unreliability. Having said that, it's motorsport, where the machinery and team have always been as much an influence on a drivers championship success as their talent.

I enjoy races as singular events anyway, and I'm not really bothered about the championship as such. Maybe that's because the point system usually only allows for 1 or 2 people to really have a chance, and a points system shake up might help, but I think it has to be simple enough for the average fan to know how the points are looking while watching the race.

Where as some people were hoping Alonso would suffer some bad luck late last season, to drag out the championship and keep Kimi in the fight, I was hoping he'd hurry up and win the bloody thing. Once it was out of the way, you knew they were all racing for themselves without helping teammates, playing it safe for points, or anything else that generally gets in the way of good old racing.

Hi Rob,

With computers I don't see is a big problem, all the FOM should do is to input on track positions lap by lap and have the software to do the summation. Even without computers, some 22 men each focusing on one driver would do.

I admire your pure racer logic, that races as singular events are the way to go. But we ain't get any nowadays except for when the championship is over. However, with my system championship it helps to get closer to the gold ole days. I suppose it will be good for you then.

Quote from Vancouver_Canuck :

I hope this points system didn't take you too long to type up because it really was pointless and a complete waste of time..

Sorry if that's harsh, but it's the truth.

Pointless unless you get the point. A waste of time just as you do, every day.

Thanks for the kindness, but I feel sorry it's the truth for you.

Last edited by wE1l, Tue 6 Jun 2006, 04:15.

Quote from JJ72 :

Come on guys...racing is about who finish the distance first.....oh well maybe they are doing this for Jenson Button who tend to retire a few hundred metres off the line......

Just BS...how are we going to know who is winning during the live broadcast....

I am wondering what you mean by saying "how are we going to know who is winning during the live broadcast".

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Lol, i like you wE1l.

It's very very late here, (dread to think what time it is for you), so, i'll be brief, and pick this up again after a good sleep

"The Championship" is a relatively new concept in motorsport, (most sports come to think of it). In F1 it began in the 50's, so we had well over 50 yrs of racing ,before someone had the notion to correlate the results over a number of race's in a year to determine the "best" driver and manufacturer.
Even in the formative yrs of F1 (i.e the first 20), there were many non-championship race's on the calender, i.e no point's, only the prestige, and the money, hence "The Big Prize", and for the drivers the thrill of driving a state of the art racing car on the limit without the added pressure of driver's and manufacture's points. There has even been talk within the FIA to include non-championship race's in modern F1, i.e Russia, and New York City
And this is what i believe is the essence of all sport's, (not just motorsport), the thrill of the competition, the adrenalin that pumps through your system when you take part and give everything you've got, the absolute joy at crossing the finish line first, seeing all the hard work that you put into behind the scene coming to fruition, all those sacrifice's you've made for that one glorious moment. And, if you dont win, the determination that wells up within you to try even harder next time.
As a teenager i competed in both athletics and skiing at a national level, and raced against a few lads who went on to become well known sporting champions. But, we never went through all that endless mindnumbingly boring training sessions for the race point's, or the money, (back then there was'nt any ), we did it for the love of the sport, and especially in the skiing, for the adrenalin rush of blasting down a snow covered mountain at 60mph with two planks of wood bolted to your feet illepall and that very special and unique feeling you get when you carve a perfect turn, just before you take a 60 foot leap off a roller (ahh...happy days)
Sorry, i digress
ermmm...

Yeah, the essence of motorsport. In many ways the Championship point tally, has had a detrimental effect on the drivers psychology towards the race, i.e they can focus on the year as a whole and not on each race, and this can in itself lead to boring race's. Some of the best race's i've seen have been after the Championship has been decided, remember Suzuka last Year !, if Alonso needed points to become Champion, do you think he would really attempt the overtaking maneuver on Schui at the 130r ??

The essence of motorsport, is purely man and machine in perfect harmony, and going as fast as each other allow, at any given time, sounds trite, but thats it, this is also why i hate the ruling of making an engine last two race's, who wants to see the leader lapping 4 sec's of the pace at the end of a race so his engine will be ok for the next GP.

Personally i hate it when drivers settle for 3rd place, straight after his last pitstop coz it wont harm his championship tally, thats boring.

Maybe a solution is to change the points to 20, 15, 10, 6, 4, 2, with 1 point for pole, and maybe a couple of points for fastest lap, (dunno, just think of the top of my head)

Ohhh, just realised how much i've written, perhaps i'll finish this later, need sleep.

But you may have gathered i tend to look at life a tad differently from alot of folk in here, think it's mainly down to not being technically minded, (computer's bewilder me) and a few things have happened that make's me see things from a slightly different perspective, it's just, i have a big problem with judging things by numbers, and statistics prove nothing. (i could talk for hours about some of my real life event's where i've been mis-judged by statistics and lumped into situation's that i should'nt have been in, but i wont )

Need sleep, back later :sleep2:

And please remember this is only my personal opinion, it dont mean i'm right.

Seriously, I am enthralled. And I'd wish you've digressed more.

In a way your a different creature from us lot. I like the way you combine your personal experiences and historic facts together to explain what sport is about, it just couldn't be done any better. Although I neither have ever watched a non-championship race, nor competed at a national level of anything, I certainly know of a time when sex was safe and F1 was dangerous. But things change. From the beginning I know F1 as a year long title competition with races and points to decide the winner. I don't know the specific reasons how it changes into what it is now, but honestly I don't think one could rightly say it's a setback to the sport. We are not missing the raw thrills of the sport, in fact with the introduction of a year long title race we are able to enjoy many greatest duels among the best, leaving us enchanting stories which will later become legends.

I do think the way the current drivers act are in a way different to those past drivers in F1, especially with championship in mind, they will be very cautious and acting in a calculated way. But the challenge they face is not an inch short of that the past drivers faced, with the ultimate test being the championship, the drivers simply have to maximize their performances in every and each race.

However, the current points system along with some other stupid rules decides sometimes a race is boring. But hey, that's exactly why I started the thread in the first place, which I think successfully settled the problem for lack of action in a race. Let me quote one of my much loved lines of your posts:"The essence of motorsport, is purely man and machine in perfect harmony, and going as fast as each other allow, at any given time." How significant it is for my proposal to make better sense. I think that's what racing is all about---to drive flatout wherever you can, not slowing a single bit for the whole distance, and fighting for positions beating your foes throughout the race. And that's what this system is focusing on and rewarding towards.

Give my proposal a second thought, it offers something a fixed points system that rewards only the final positions can't provide.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

To follow on from Kevs suggestion: perhaps, use a system they have in track cycling, i'e every few laps, the person in last place is eliminated from the race.

But seriously, i understand your concept wE, but unfortunately, it would'nt be practical, yeah it may make things exciting from a statistical point of view, but at the end of the day F1 is a sport, and like all sports, sometimes it's fare and sometimes it's not.
Thats why God invented both pubs and internet forum's, so we can argue till we're all blue in the face, who/what/why/when and where is the BEST !. If we reduced everything down to statistics and let mere numbers decided, then we're stepping into Matrix territory, and life would be a very boring concept, (and Becky Rose, would have no-one to argue with.) Would you want that to happen.

I've been involved in various sport's all my life, and i've been an avid F1 fan since the late 70's ( i'm old) and alot of the time, it can be very very boring, but, there are time's when something very very magical happens, i.e Senna's 1st lap at Donnington, in 1980...whatever ?.... or Ben Johnson smashing the Wr in Seoul in 1980... something ? Or even McEnroe v Borg at Wimbledon in ..... that year they played ??, and remember Stirling Moss, the greatest F1 driver never to have won a Championship.

Personally i can give you a bucketfull of personal sob stories where i was hard done by, both on and off the "sports field", but, thats life, sometimes it's not fare, sometimes things happen that seem unjust, but, you simply accept it and get on with it.

To change the point's system in F1 to make it more exciting and reward the "better" driver's is, in my opinion, missing the true essence of the sport.
And, another thing, who decide's who the better drivers are ?, the more aggressive one's, the steady reliable one's, the insane nutter's who crash into everyone else in order to win ?
Perhaps having a panel of judges at track side giving artistic merit points is the way to go (sorry, another cheesy unfunny joke there )

It's a very well thought out system, it show's you have a very keen mind, and an obvious passion for the sport, but, as i say, it simply wouldnt be practical for todays F1.

However, it may work in LFS league race's (not that i've ever taken part in one )

What a post Mazz!

In all honesty if I was told of such a system I'd doubt it would work just as you do. And impractical may well be my first impression on this system. However we are not always right with our first impressions, and many opportunities are missed because of that. Oh, I should constrain from digressing.

In fact I think you misunderstand my purpose a little bit. Maybe my recurring claim that every effort should be awarded is the reason, but I simply think of this as a way to have a more interesting championship. Fairness of the sport isn't really my main focus.

I am really curious to hear about your theory as to what is the true essence of racing tho, since I don't think this system is in any way contravening it. What I see is that despite potential weaknesses, it does good for the sport. While I too feel the need for track-side judges to give out artistic points whenever I think about Sir Stirling Moss, it really doesn't prevent me from supporting the finding of a better evaluation system for racing.

Practical or impractical, it most likely won't ever come to F1, it is just something in my leisure time that I came across and wanted to talk about with people who are acknowledgable as you. But with a thorough bombardment of FIA's email, let's hope they will use it.

Quote from VALE 46 :

His suspension braking was a cause of his own actions ...

You cant give out points according to effort. Imagine if it was the same with football, one team leads for 80mins ... with 5mins to go the other team equalise, in the last min they then get the winner. You wouldnt give the other team leading for 80mins any points ... "you didnt win the match, but you put in a lot of effort, thats worth 1.2759 points" illepall

OK not 100% appropriate an example. Then how about Webber and Raikkonen at Monaco this year?

Thank goodness this is NOT football. Completely different situation please don't mix them up.

Quote from VALE 46 :

Why would they want to change the point system, whats wrong with it as it is

The unbearable lightness of the current one is that people are informed of the who's the champion with 10 races to go.

And, more unbearably, like this year, a 21 pts deficit means Alonso only need to finish ahead of Schu in only one races to win the title, even if Schu goes on to win ALL the remaining 10 races.

Quote from VALE 46 :

Your way is too complicated to work out quickly ... so anyone new to F1 will probably not understand and not watch again.

As I said, a real time provisional pts chart could be provided occasionally on the TV screen and live timing to give us a clear view of who is in front for longer! We don't have to do any maths, and one thing we know for sure is who stays ahead scores more.

Quote from VALE 46 :

As said all ready, passing near the end, or on the final lap is basically pointless (<-- get it :chairfall) and thats what is most exciting, a close finish.

On the contrary of pointless if that's for the win.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Anyway, that's my take on it, I'm off to bed. Interesting idea, but I don't like it

Here's another one: How about awarding points according to how many seconds behind the leader you finish? Then whoever is in the lead of the race would want to push all the way to the finish to maximise his points, and everybody else would have to chase just as hard. Plus it would be easy to see how many points someone is going to score at any point in the race.

Thanks for rating it as "interesting", all I can say is see my reasoning why it's superior to the current one and hopefully you will like it.

As for your proposal, believe it or not, it's exactly what I thought some months ago! Basically I wrote in a thread somewhere that apart from the fixed final standing awards, the runner-up should be awarded 1 or 2 extra points for getting within 10 or 5 seconds of the winner. Heck, no wonder they say great minds think alike!

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Well, yes, potentially 0.166 of a point might decide a championship. Similarly, two points might decide a championship this year, but drivers are still quite often content to turn the engine down and finish second.

In fact it would be even more tempting to back off towards the end of a race under your proposed system, because the later in the race you are, the smaller the benefits of passing become.

Anyway, that's my take on it, I'm off to bed. Interesting idea, but I don't like it

Here's another one: How about awarding points according to how many seconds behind the leader you finish? Then whoever is in the lead of the race would want to push all the way to the finish to maximise his points, and everybody else would have to chase just as hard. Plus it would be easy to see how many points someone is going to score at any point in the race.

Then what if it's not for the win, say, just a battle for the fourth place?

Well with this system I can't see any way they will tend to back off towards the end. Since what they've already earned can't be denied. Those laps they did are on record and will be awarded due provisional pts, they don't have to worry about an unsuccessful passing manuever to screw it all. In such a nothing-to-lose situation. YES, I see it as a definite incentive to overtake!

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Well, yes, potentially 0.166 of a point might decide a championship. Similarly, two points might decide a championship this year, but drivers are still quite often content to turn the engine down and finish second.

In fact it would be even more tempting to back off towards the end of a race under your proposed system, because the later in the race you are, the smaller the benefits of passing become.

Anyway, that's my take on it, I'm off to bed. Interesting idea, but I don't like it

Here's another one: How about awarding points according to how many seconds behind the leader you finish? Then whoever is in the lead of the race would want to push all the way to the finish to maximise his points, and everybody else would have to chase just as hard. Plus it would be easy to see how many points someone is going to score at any point in the race.

Firstly, it will be a HUGELY different story if your talking about the title war between two or more contenders. Since you may only be awarded 0.166 pts or double that considering the rival you pass lose 0.166 at the same time, but if that's for the win, then an extra 5 golden pts are rewarded as the ultimate prize!

Never look down upon these 5 pts, since it's mega in this system. It equals about 5 places upon finish, and this comes as an extra bonus. Take this year's European race for example, it was a close fight and Alonso came second, but with Schumacher winning and setting the FL, he eventually lost eight pts to Schu, which is HUGE under this system, since 8 pts roughly equals 8 places upon finish! With this system, the championship leader will be under immense pressure even if he has a "comfortable" lead, since he simply can't settle for second and not owning the FL, there are 8 extra pts up for grab.

----------------------------Alonso--------Schumacher
Provisional Pts--------------- 1235 --------- 1232
Ave. Provisional Pts --------- 20.583 ------- 20.533
Extra------------------------- 0 ------------- 8
Total----------------------- 20.583 ------- 28.533

So why is 8 pts huge with this system? Let us again take this year's Australian race for example. In this race Schumacher crashed out, but with this system his effort is recognised by 8 pts, so even though Alonso drove a brilliant race he could only stretch his lead by 14 pts.

-----------------------------Alonso--------Schumacher
Provisional Pts--------------- 1203 --------- 456
Ave. Provisional Pts --------- 21.105 ------- 8.000
Extra------------------------- 5 ------------- 0
Total----------------------- 26.105 ------- 8.000

I think you should get the picture why this system is vastly advantageous for a thrilling title war. It makes it very difficult to build a large gap, and there are simply too many variations that could affect the final outcome of the championship. Also with other drivers score constant points, there will probably be more potential title contenders.

Or cut it short and just think about this year's championship, now Alonso could be content to come second to Schumacher in all the remaining races but the last one, and then he only needs to finish ahead of Schu in the last race to win the title. But with this system, his 21 points lead could well be gone within 3 races with him finishing second but Schu first!

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Meh. I still say whoever finishes first quite obviously completed the race quicker than anybody else. If you looked at average speed you'd find the guy who finished first was the fastest, whereas your proposed system wouldn't necessarily demonstrate anything of the sort.



OK, well let's have another example:

The second and third-placed cars have been running in those positions from the start of the race. It's a 60-lap race, and 50 laps have run, the guy in 2nd is currently on 21 points, and the guy in third is on 20. If he passes the guy in 2nd and takes 2nd position for the final ten laps, he will finish with 20.1666 (recurring) points, and the guy who finishes third will score 20.8333 (recurring) points.

With the current F1 points system, this pass would be worth 2 points.

Bear in mind also that a single point, under your system, isn't as valuable as a single point under the current system, because so many more points are granted each race. So scoring an extra 0.1666 points for making a pass for 2nd place with ten laps to go would be much less of an incentive than scoring 2 points under the current system.

I think thus far you are the most constructive critic I've received. I really appreciate your effort!

But consier this system on the whole, right from race 1 every driver would probably get a lot of points, with roughly 1 point separating them from their closest rivals. And every race your rivals are picking up points, unless they win or set the FL, the positions will be ALL that will decide how you compare with your rivals. This will make it a delicate game, with points refined by decimals. I think sometimes 0.166 is all what you need to get the better of your rival, and if you are content to just sit behind and not trying a move you lose out. And with this system the earlier you overtake your rival the more you will gain, the more your rival will lose, something that the old fixed system can NOT provide, thus extra incentives to overtake. Yes I stick to it. Only need a simulation on RL to see how it will work!

Quote from zeugnimod :

Then, he would want to know, how exactly they calculate the points and who is actually leading points-wise atm and I would be lost.

No, seriously, I wasnt talking about someone, who watches maybe 1 or 2 races per season. Tbh, it is already too complicated for my taste, and I normally watch every race.

Seriously, it's NOT THAT complicated. People are awarded provisional pts on a per lap basis, and have the final summation divided by the race laps is what you get!

As for the audience, a provisional pts chart could be featured in real time on TV and live timing to give us a clear view of who is in front for longer!

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Nahhh.. wE1l, it was only a friendly bit of ribbing (but you knew that)

Honestly, as Zeugnimod said, its far to complex a system for the average punter to understand.
In fact i would prefer to go back to the old points sytem, i.e. (9,6,4,3,2,1, and 1 point for fastest lap, + maybe add another for pole)
Simple as that. It's been well known for years that boring race's are caused by boring cars that adhere to boring regulations, but come 2008, hopefully, and i repeat hopefully, all the new reg's will be brought in, and we should all get the close racing we've been hoping for for years,
However..........

What I dislike about the fixed system to award points by and only by the final standings is it does not reflects well who is giving a better performance. Like Mika at the Spainish GP in 2001, he led for most of the race only to lose out on the final lap due to a mysterious breakdown of his McLaren. How did he did in the race? Fantastic. What did he get out of it? 0 pts. What are the fans' reaction? It sucks.

However we can improve on that, we can use the fact that GPs are run in circles to finetuning the evaluation system.

Well at this rate, I can see this system working in 100 years time.

Now for Melbourne.

-----------------------------Alonso--------Schumacher
Provisional Pts--------------- 1203 --------- 456
Ave. Provisional Pts --------- 21.105 ------- 8.000
Extra------------------------- 5 ------------- 0
Total----------------------- 26.105 ------- 8.000


Alonso won a brilliant race in which he led for most of the race, but he didn't set the FL, with which he would've got a 29.105, very close to the maximum 30!

Schumacher on the other hand, ran nicely before the mistake and was at one time the fastest man on the track. With the new system, he won't leave without appreciation for his effort, as shown above 8 championship pts are awarded to him.

I rather like the concept of awarding all those who take part in the game. Especially when you lead for most of the race but retire on the last lap, although you won't get the winner's ultimate bonus your pace throughout the race will be paid back by due points. Sometimes it's just so sad to see a brilliant driver to lose all through no fault of his own---Mika in Spain 01 (or is it 00 ). The "lucky b@stard" will still be lucky, but the unfortunate loser won't be double punished.

Here, I applied the system to the European GP this year, and this is how the two title contenders look like.

----------------------------Alonso--------Schumacher
Provisional Pts--------------- 1235 --------- 1232
Ave. Provisional Pts --------- 20.583 ------- 20.533
Extra------------------------- 0 ------------- 8
Total----------------------- 20.583 ------- 28.533


Alonso led for more laps than Schu in the race, but on the whole it was a dog fight between the two. This fact is duly reflected on the provisional points, with Alonso only three provisional pts ahead. However Schu won the race, and that made the difference. As rewarding the winner is essential for the new system

Another essential point of the system is to reward the FASTEST. The whole 3rd stint of the Europe race was some kind of a bore, with Alonso wittingly reserve the engine for the next round. But given the new system, Alonso still has a chance to cut the dificit by running a qualifying like lap to clinch the FL thus 3 extra pts. If he does that then the final pts of the race will look like 23.583 vs. 25.533

Quote from tristancliffe :

Whilst I don't think the FIA will ever use such a system, I do believe it has it's merits. It's obviously not flawless, but show me a points system which is. (Edit: I want to stress that it would never be a workable, marketable, understandable system, but I like the fact that he's thinking laterally, rather than just moaning about F1).

I don't want to make too many comments, because we don't have a lot to go on at the moment. I've asked wE1l to calculate how the top positions would have looked from last year, or perhaps this year as well, and maybe it would given an indication of how it would actually work. In fact, if my friend cancels on me tomorrow (pub), then I'll have a crack at working it out for two or three drivers, and making a little graph to go with it.

Does anyone know where I can download a lap chart of last years races, ideally in tabular format, but I guess a pic would be okay? Someone, somewhere must love stats that much?

Hi again Tristan!

I worked out the European race and Australian one this year, along with Suzuka 05, are all races that I've worked on. I will give the result in my next result.

For stats, look nowhere other than--- http://www.alesi.demon.nl or http://www.visionf1.com/race_index.html

Quote from zeugnimod :

I think, this is far too complicated and would turn many fans away, if it was used.

To explain its advantages, rather than the perceived too-complicated-will turn-away-fans scenario, below is what I call the "casual viewer scenario".

Suppose you happen to be watching a race with a friend who doesn't follow F1, and------ 1) he is amazed by how desperate the drivers are attempting to overtake, and you say to him, it's because every lap he will be given pts w.r.t his track positions. 2) he is bored to watch a parade of cars and asks why don't they try to overtake each other, and you say to him, well he doesn't have to, he carries more fuel so he could "overtake" in the pit.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

So I'm right, then? Next time you should use the word "unlikely" instead of "impossible".

It's what they call the "unusual downfall of wE1l".

Quote from thisnameistaken :

He was the only driver in that race to trash a front tyre so badly that it tore the suspension apart. Should he be rewarded for that?

There are many other occasions (Mika at Spain 01 for one), where the driver put on a solid performance only to be denied all his effort through no fault of his own.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I think a guy who fights his way up from 11th to win the race deserves way more points than a guy who had the win sewn up and then stuffed it up on the final lap and finished dead last.

Your imaginary example isn't all convincing. Why not take a look at a rather extreme one, the Japanese grand prix last year, where Fisichella was in the top 3 of the race for 47 laps, 29 of which in the lead, while Raikkonen only did it in 18 laps, only 6 of which in the lead. This is how the podium finishers look like in the end. (Mind it's a 20 car grid, so the top provisional pts per lap is 20 rather than 22.)

===========P. Pts=========Ave P. Pts=======Extra====Final
Raikkonen------826-------------15.585-------------8------23.585
Fisichella------1012-------------19.094-------------0------19.094
Alonso---------783-------------14.774-------------0------14.774

Even without the bonus of 3 pts for FL, Raikkonen will still be 1.5 pts ahead of Fisichella.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Call me old fashioned, but to me motor racing is about finishing positions. And I don't think your system would encourage overtaking - drivers would think "Oh well, ten laps to go, there's no point passing this guy infront of me because I'll only score .05 more points for it and he'll still score more points than me".

Let's look back at the racing concept. Quote wikipedia:"A race is a competition of speed. The competitors in a race try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time. Typically this involves traversing some distance, but it can be any other task involving speed." See, what you call the basic concept of racing, namely "to run a determined distance in the least possible time" is actually just a means to determine who is the quicker. I think my proposal can be tweaked to allow final position awards, but the system itself is not in contradiction to the essence of racing. On the contrary, I think it is a more accurate way to evaluate speed. So that those drivers who put on brilliant performances and showcase tons of speed will be recognised. Isn't that what racing should be about---no lazily lapping slowly waiting to pick up points due to others' DNFs, but fighting for positions and show the speed you have at any time in a race. For me, to find yourself a comfortable place and turn the revs down is a disrespect to the spirit of racing.

As for your saying it won't encourage overtaking, I will remind you that every lap your running behind your rivals are costing you points, and this system guarentees that there will be more not less incentives to overtake than systems based solely on final standings.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Hmmmm..... Mr wE1l, with the greatest respect, i think you may be spending too much time alone. Go out, meet a girl, have fun, there's so much more to life than this yunno

ROFL! Good piece of advice mate, although you know I do do that.

I don't usually come out with such ideas, but recently I once again got pissed off knowing that Alonso only needs to finish in one of the remaining races ahead of Schumacher to take the title if he could finish second to Schu in the other races. I have had this idea for long but didn't ever bother to think an inch more about it since I knew I cound't change anything, but recently when I gave it a full consideration I find this system truthfully brilliant and should be the modern way of evaluate race performances, and the more I think about it the more I love it.

Anyway I'd like you leave some comments regarding this issue rather than giving out some personal advise on the way of living.

Last edited by wE1l, Mon 5 Jun 2006, 22:42.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

There's a 5-point bonus for first place, but that doesn't mean you'll come away with more points than the guy who finishes last.

Example:

A driver leads a 60-lap race from pole, but drops to last place on the final lap. Final score: 21.65

Another driver spends half the race in 11th (330), moves up to lead the race by passing one car every three laps, and wins. Score: 14.85, plus 5 for the win, gives him 19.85.

So the guy who finishes last scores about two more points than the guy who wins the race.

Which bit didn't I understand?

+1 for the example. But it happens to magnify an important feature of the system---each lap of effort of the driver is rewarded.

Like Kimi at the 'Ring, last year. He drove a fantastic race, from second on the grid, and led for most of the race. But his front suspension failed him on the very last lap, so even though he was still 'classified', (in 11th place), he received zero points, for what was a truly valiant effort.
Zero points is by no stretch of the imagination what Kimi deserved for putting in that fantastic drive.

Now how many times we see a DNF totally negates the abilities and efforts of top drivers who have had their car 'let them down', though NO FAULT of the driver himself. ("hydraulics failure" is a favourite in this category). This system fully appreciate every kph of speed a driver shows in a GP and reward them with due points. It will surely make good of the title bid.

And above all, what is the possibility of your example happens? And even if it does happen, I think the driver who led from pole for all but one lap of the race is trully brilliant and should be awarded for his effort and speed!

Quote from Greboth :

Yeah the way its been explained if finish 1st you get 22 points but it is then divided by laps so say 60 which gives u 0.3 points but if blow up on first lap ud get 1 point but with one lap so would get one point.

Edit : from your explination what i said above makes sense, form you example though i see how it could work.

OK. Then how do you like it?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

According to your explanation points are awarded without relation to a driver's finishing position, so it's eminently possible.

I'm sure the FIA would approve of this system though. It's pointlessly complicated and doesn't reward the race winner.

1. False. A driver's finishing position is taken into consideration. It's either you didn't even look at my idea or that you are giving inaccurate comments.

2. One sentence is used to describe the system---Points will be awarded according to the average track positions in a race. And again, I take it that you didn't bother to actually look at my proposal where it clearly says 5 extra pts for the race winner, which is huge with this syste.