Quote from kaynd :

But anyway it seems that clutch's increased heat "resistance" is not the solution on it's own for the enormous stress that forces the clutch slipping by all that frequent loss and regain of grip that happens in rallyx tracks.

This isn't supposed to be a solution. It's just a temporary fix until Scawen can address the clutch and engine simulation later. Hopefully, later he can make it so the clutches don't slip unless you're riding the pedal. My guess is that because the cars in LFS have totally rigid bodies and no simulated engine mounts, that too much force is being absorbed by the clutch when it would normally disperse into other areas of a real car.

Quote from auch_enne :

Just added some odd mix of cars on oval, practise, a MRT got flipped, no reset, and AI dont shift S orso, so it just lay there, untill it got hit again landed on it's feet.. nothing happend.

There's an option to allow resetting. It's off by default but if you turn it on I think the AI will reset their cars and fix damage.

For what it's worth, even though the AI can't account for the wind, they seem to be able to cope with it just fine. I've tried several races where I start the race, then turn the wind to level 2. So far, I've seen no adverse effects from doing it.

Did you try more than one server?

Quote from Renku :

Where are they, not in my LFS folder at least..
I mean X30_TO_X35

Unless you downloaded the new lfsrestart.exe from the main forum, it don't think it's possible that it could take effect until the next patch is released.

I just ran a few AI drivers in the FZ5 around Kyoto National. I originally had the race set to 2 laps, then increased it after the race started (to force them to pit). After the 3rd lap, when coming off the oval, every single one of them suddenly turned towards the infield, went through the grass, and hit the pit wall. Once there, they seem unable to figure out how to get back on the track. They just go back and forth into the walls.

This is on X35. Not sure if it happened on previous patches since this is the first time I've tried this track/car combo with the AI.

Edit: I tried the same repro but using the F08 instead of the FZ5. The cars are trying to pit from the wrong end. They pass the pits, then turn around and enter the pits from the wrong end. Then they leave the pits, drive about and 1/8th mile, then turn around and start going the correct way again.

Edit2: I've tried this now with multiple different cars. The F08 and FZR can successfully get into the bits, but they go backwards. The FZ5, LX6, etc. can't seem to figure out how to go backwards and can't make it to the pits. Not sure why some cars can turn around and others can't. Something in the [enter pits] path is obviously wrong, here. Kyoto National Reverse does the same thing. They try to go in the wrong way.

Last edited by Cue-Ball, Tue 18 Dec 2007, 20:47.

Quote from SpaceMarineITA :

out of physics?
What does it mean?

Cars that are sitting with the engine off are "taken out" of the physics system to reduce overhead. This was detailed earlier in the thread.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Oh, I'm not doubting you I remember that post too Cue. But then there was one where he responded to some bitching and pointed out that "Eric wasn't waiting for him to implement his work" (in the context of it needing an incomp patch), he said Eric's work was just waiting to be done and that Eric didn't want to release partially finished interiors etc. So, I don't know for sure what the scoop is

Found it!

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=298604#post298604

Edit: Still not totally clear if it will require an incompatible patch or not. I guess if the driver doesn't move at all it could be compatible. But, by the time the interiors are ready to go Scawen may have found other things he wants to fix which will require it to be incompatible anyway.

Last edited by Cue-Ball, Tue 18 Dec 2007, 18:33.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

He's also said before that they don't though.

And I agree, knowing it's not done, people shouldn't have an issue with them being reset regularly.

I wish I could cite the post, but I specifically asked about this issue, oh, last year sometime, I guess it was. Scawen said that changes to the cars require an incompatible patch because moving the driver, wheel, etc. by even a millimeter changes the physics calculations. Of course, he also said that he was changing the way that the physics worked so that polygons were not taken into account when figuring out weight distribution and cg. That last part was said when he was asked about how top heavy cars like the UFR and XFR feel, and how easily they tip over.

So, interior updates definitely DID require an incompatible patch, but I guess I'm not entirely sure if they still DO require one. Maybe he will have time to answer once his work is finished on the test patches.

Quote from Scawen :

I've fixed that tyre smoke bug.

I've also reduced clutch heating by 25%. Let me know if that helps things. It's important that people are prevented from constant flat shifting and I fear that this reduction although it may help the XF GTI at Blackwood Rallycross, may also allow too much flat shifting.

Once you can completely fix the clutch behavior, I don't think flatshifting will be a problem. People will either break loose their tires or bog their engines. In either case, they will suffer real life penalties for their actions.

Something to consider for the future: If drivetrain torque > X then broken u-joint.

Quote :

Reduced clutch heating by 25%

Woot! Not a complete fix, but hopefully that will be a workable fix for now.

Thanks for addressing our concerns, Scawen. I can't wait to see what you guys have in store for the new interiors and updated engine/clutch modeling in the future.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I do hope that with the patch release, Scawen releases another "word about our plans" statement. We know cockpits will be "as soon as possible", which is fine, but does that mean another imcomp patch? Personally I don't care about the HL charts much, but many do. And surely he will be looking into the whole clutch issue as well next year.

Scawen has said before that any changes to the car models requires an incompatible patch. So, yes, whenever the new car interiors come along the charts will have to be reset again. Knowing that the game is still Alpha, people shouldn't have a problem with the charts resetting. Every time they reset it means that we're making progress.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Perhaps you could tell Shaun how to pronounce Caterham properly

Shaun if you're reading this it's pronounced Kate-er-rum, not Cat-a-ham (p.s, really liked the Huttu skit on youtube)

And Kyoto is not pronounced Kye-oh-toh, it's pronounced K'yo-toh.

Quote from Scawen :

Well, the restarter is the one file that cannot be auto patched. That's one reason why I made a forum post, and also pointed out that it's not that important. And before you suggest it, I'd prefer not to have different patches for auto patcher and manual patch.

Sounds good. You might want to include the new version of the restarter in the full install though. I don't think most people will need the new functionality, but you might as well cover your bases anyway.

Thanks for answering!

If we're stuck with the slipping for the time being, perhaps you could at least turn down the amount of heat that it generates (or turn off the heat completely)? It's not a fix, but it would be a workaround that should allow people to finish a race without burning up the clutch.

Everyone is happy that the cars can now stall, but the problems that the clutch heat is causing outweigh the benefits, IMO.

I'm curious what everyone else thinks of this. I've been begging for stalling and clutch modeling since I first started playing LFS, but the heat issue really is causing a lot of headaches.

I would really like to see this as well. Along with a server-side option to prevent Shift+P, it could make practice and qualification sessions much more realistic.

Will this new version of LFSRestart be included in Patch Y, so that those of us who don't need to use the new functionality right now will still have the newest version after patching?

Quote from traxxion :

Fair enough!

Just to make this clear: I don't even want to think about how difficult it is to program AI's and I have big respect for you - for how they behave already (having a hard time keeping up with the pro FBMW's!).

I agree wholeheartedly. The AI aren't perfect, but they are a HUGE step up from before, and better than half of the people I've raced against. A friend and I raced against a pack of AI cars on Blackwood in the LX4 the other night. I was driving my ass off just to keep up with the "Quick" guys. I made one mistake and never saw them again. The "Pro" guys dusted me within 2 laps and I was unable to catch up.

The new AI is a hundredfold improvement. Once they can adapt a little bit better to overtaking situations and changing conditions, they're going to really give people a run for their money.

Quote from Resound :

Actually, it's a 4 axis joystick, but that's not the point. If I set both a button and an axis as throttle then I should be able to accelerate using either and I am so NOT using a button as my regular throttle.

If it's really a 4 axis joystick, then what's the problem? You have one axis for steering, one for brake, one for gas, and that still leaves one left over.

Quote from Danke :

I was able to complete 15 laps of BL2 in an XFG without roasting the clutch simply by feathering it during upshifts and when landing from jumps and bumps.

Nobody is saying it isn't possible to work around the issue. The point is that we shouldn't have to, because it wouldn't be an issue at all if it acted realistic.

One of my cars is a 140hp FWD car that weighs about 3200lbs (portly, I know). I drive that car very hard, including flatshifting it every so often. It's got over 80,000 miles on the stock clutch and not once has it ever slipped. Never. And this is a car that has to have the clutch ridden just to leave an uphill stoplight. My Mustang had over 100,000 miles when I sold it. It was running over 300ft/lbs of torque through the stock OEM clutch. I powershifted that car, did burnouts, did hard launches, etc. Again, the clutch never slipped. Not once.

So why is it that we have cars in this sim that are burning up clutches - heavy duty racing clutches - in the dirt!? It doesn't make any sense, it isn't realistic, and it's ruining the immersion and enjoyment for a lot of people.

Quote from mathew4445 :

To the guy who posted above me.
I would myself count this as spamming or flaming.


Dude your name is pathetic "DragKing" ? Jesus. lol.

Wait a second...

You give another user a hard time about their name and call them pathetic, but HE is the one who's spamming/flaming? Pot. Kettle. Black.

His post was constructive and informative. Yours was simply trolling.

Quote from Misko :

Just a note that real rallycross races are no longer than 4 laps. It's an event with lot of heats, qualifying and eliminations of 3 laps, then finals of 4 laps (exact distance is set in FIA regulations in kms, and for BL2 it turns out to be 3 and 4 laps). Of course, there are never any pitstops there. So, even with sensitive clutch, rallyx is still fine both for humans and AIs if we keep it real.

While that may be true, it doesn't really address the underlying issue that clutch behavior is unrealistic and that some cars are massively handicapped because of it.

Quote from dungbeetle :

1. Is there a way to force the AI cars to start with a certain amount of fuel before a race?

Sorta. You can't choose how much fuel the AI cars start with, but you can make them start with less than they normally would use. Set the race length for, say, 5 laps. Start the race. Then change the race length manually using [/laps 20]. That should work. Though, you have to run a LOT of laps before the AI would have to pit more than once, so it's probably easier to just turn on the pit stop requirement.

Quote :

2. Is the amount of fuel the AI starts with influenced in any way by the amount of fuel I start with, and in particular, when I select that the AI should use the same setup as me?

No. The AI uses your setup, but the amount of fuel in your tank is independent from the rest of the parameters in car setup. Not just for AI, but for your car as well. No matter what setup you load, your fuel level will only change if you do it by hand.

Quote :

3. Presumably I can only force one pitstop on the AI - any others would be down to them as and when they see fit?

You can "force" more than one pit stop by running a LOOOOOONG race, but that's about it. From my experience, you have to run 100 laps or more before any car would have to run more than 2 stints. Even then, the FZR is the only car I've found that uses enough. I haven't tested the two big formula cars though.

Quote :

4. When choosing a fuel/pitstop strategy, will all the bots have the same strategy, or might they vary at all? (They all seem to pit on the same lap at the moment).

Again, I've run a lot of AI races in the past week and AI always pit at the same time, assuming they are in the same model car. But if you run two different cars (the XRR and FZR, for instance) they will pit at different times due to differing fuel uses. But ONLY if they are pitting for fuel, and not pitting to satisfy a "must pit" requirement. Also, only if the race is long enough that fuel consumption is relavent to the race (ie: 50+ laps on the long tracks)

Quote from sharkboots :

The textures squashed to 50% of their proper size at the side of the gantries at SO have always bugged me. I thought this might have been fixed in the new patch.

I've noticed some other mapping issues on SO also. Specifically, when running SO City Long Rev, right before you go under the freeway overpass there are some Castrol banners on the right. Several of them are cut off or mis-mapped. This is something you notice even when flying through that section of track during a race.

Quote from blackbird04217 :

A little late on this? It was out a while ago But yea, I suppose I've just been checking the site and its nice to let others know that its out.

I sent in a suggestion about adding an RSS feed to the site. Hopefully they'll do it so that people don't have to find out that a new episode is out via forums.