Good examples. The first one had some nice effects, but the "sim" camera angles really took me out of it. It just doesn't seem real when there's a camera floating 3 feet off the side of the car. I think that even though this is one area where sims have an advantage over real life, videos covering racing series like STCC should stick to in-car and track side cameras like real life. It's just more immersive that way. But, like I said, that first video is top notch for production.
The second video I think is achievable in LFS today (well, almost). Once Becky is able to get a real time ticker going the STCC will be at this quality, IMO. My main gripes with the second video is the same as they are with current LFS cameras - they only follow a single car instead of the battles between them. Admittedly, this is not as much of a problem for NASCAR since all the cars are right behind one another in a train.
I really wonder what the guys in the second vid do when there's an accident, questionable contact, etc? If they're just using the in-game cameras then there would be no opportunity for replays from other angles which is a huge part of real life motorsport. That second vid definitely has top notch commentary though. It almost made me want to put in a dip of chew and fire up the still! 
edit: nevermind my original post. I misread what you had said, Android.
So, I could basically tell ALL the cars to use paddle.txt if I wanted to, by editing the individual car files? That seems very odd. I would think that each car would have a set transmission type and that would be the end of it.
So, I could basically tell ALL the cars to use paddle.txt if I wanted to, by editing the individual car files? That seems very odd. I would think that each car would have a set transmission type and that would be the end of it.
You can use the 6-speed shifter in LFS. You have to choose "shifter" instead of "sequential" or "automatic". You can find more information about the G25 in the Hardware > Racing Wheels forum (where this thread will undoubtedly get moved).
I've got a couple of questions about the scripting system and how it's used with the cars. I'm 99% sure Scawen has answered these before, but I've searched like mad and can't for the life of me find any answers.
Firstly, do any of the cars actually use the sequential.txt file right now? I setup the road/sequential/paddle script files for my G25 last night, but couldn't actually find a sequential car. All of the GTR cars seem to use the road (H-shift) setup. Which cars use which transmission type?
Secondly, I remember Scawen saying something about sequential and paddle cars using driver aids like auto-blip and auto-clutch without these things being user selectable. It seems this is not the case in U20 or U22. Is this something that's supposed to be upcoming in an uncompatible patch?
Firstly, do any of the cars actually use the sequential.txt file right now? I setup the road/sequential/paddle script files for my G25 last night, but couldn't actually find a sequential car. All of the GTR cars seem to use the road (H-shift) setup. Which cars use which transmission type?
Secondly, I remember Scawen saying something about sequential and paddle cars using driver aids like auto-blip and auto-clutch without these things being user selectable. It seems this is not the case in U20 or U22. Is this something that's supposed to be upcoming in an uncompatible patch?
Monk - I gave your tool a shot last night but every time I ran it, it would crash. This was on XP SP2. I haven't had a chance yet to try it on another machine or look at the source code, so I'll give that a shot when I have some time. I just wanted to let you know and see if you've successfully run the version you uploaded. I wonder if maybe the upload was corrupted?
To you it might be a novelty that wears off. To me (and others) it's a way to race each week without having to spend half of my driving time working on a setup. There are times when I would want to have normal, setup allowed racing. But on the days when I don't have much time to race I'd rather not spend a good portion of my time performing car setup. Imagine that you, me, and three other guys go to the local track, rent a bunch of Porsches, and battle it out for 10 laps. THAT is the kind of experience I would like to replicate and to do so requires forced setups.
I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying that *I* would rather spend my time doing something else. I have friends who are computer programmers. They like to spend their free time writing code and debugging. Not my idea of a good time, but more power to them. Car setup is the same thing. If I have two hours a week to play LFS I want to spend them driving, not working on car setup. Being able to force setups from the server immediately puts everyone on a level playing field so that the people like me who don't want to spend the time or just don't have the knowledge (I do. maybe i'm just lazy) can still be competitive and have fun. If YOU want to run on a server without forced setups, there's nothing to stop you. My friends and I would like the choice to run all the cars completely even.
Once again, as long as racing is a hobby none of this really matters an ounce. Real drivers have pit crews, engineers, tire manufacturer reps, etc to handle this stuff. Michael Schumacher says "the rear is loose" and the engineers do all the work. He's not under the car adjusting the spring rate and damper settings. In LFS we have to do everything ourselves. I WANT TO DRIVE! I do not want to wear a dozen different hats and do all the stuff that a real life pit crew does. If you choose to do that, so be it. *I* do not want to and I know that others feel the same way. It's simply not worth my time to muck with setups for a 7 lap pick-up race when half the field will crash out by the 3rd lap anyway. I just want to get in and drive against an even field. Why is that so hard to understand?
I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand, but you're wrong. While it may be a team sport the driver DOES get all the glory. I wonder if you can tell me the name of the tire technician for the Ferrari F1 team? Last year Russell Ingall won the Aussie V8 Supercar championship. What was his pit chief's name? Now, do you still think the driver doesn't get all the glory? In any case, this isn't real life racing. This is simulated racing. In this sport the driver definitely gets all the glory (is there any?) because there is nobody else!
edit: If LFS were the least bit realistic about car setups it would go a long way towards equalizing things without forced setups. However; it's still something that I would like to see implemented.
Last edited by Cue-Ball, .
Link to better video?
Agreed. But the little things that STCC does add a lot to the production. Things like slow-mo replays, car position overlays, etc. The only racing vids I've seen that come anywhere close so far are either professionally made trailers (like the GTR2 trailer) or race coverage which uses the normal in-game cameras and a pair of announcers. The in-game camera control is, in my opinion, 90% of the problem. Not just in LFS, but in all racing games I've played. Very seldom in a real race do you see the camera focus on one car. The competition between two or more cars is where all the action is.
I don't believe this is the case at all. Becky and Tristan want to expand the audience for sim racing, not constrict it to their series alone. The more viewers they have, the more racers are attracted to LFS. The more racers are attracted, the more series can be run. It's a snowball effect and I'm sure that the STCC folks know that (and want to encourage it). The reason that the STCC videos are the best is because they take a LONG time and a LOT of effort to put together. If it were easy, don't you think other long running series would have done it by now?
While I agree that a much larger audience is required, I don't think this last part is true. While I know that you, Tristan, and everyone else involved in production spend a LOT of time making the STCC movies, it doesn't necessarily have to be this way. Right now you have to go through many, many steps to get the videos we've seen so far:
Have the actual race
Setup multiple different cameras for each event.
Record video for the whole race from each camera.
Splice and edit these different angles into a cohesive, real-time feed, plus any replays that are necessary (which have to be recorded themselves)
Put in all the overlays showing standings, credits, etc.
Play back the replay and record commentary.
Put the original footage and the commentary together into a single video.
I'm sure I even left out several significant steps. However; If one were to do videos using the same techniques as a real television crew this would be much less time consuming and could even be done in real time, just as real races are. Obviously, this would require purpose made broadcast and video editing hardware and software. It would also require the personnel to run the equipment, provide the commentary, etc (but you already basically have many of those people - yourselves as volunteers). The thing that would be needed the most is a way to connect multiple clients to a live race, have those clients act as "camera men", and have their footage sent to the system just as a live video feed from a real race would be.
I'm not saying this is trivial at all. I'm just saying that the way videos are done right now is what makes doing them so "hard". Given the appropriate resources hardware and software, videos and live broadcasts are definitely possible. And, even more so, time delayed broadcasts could be amazing. Just look at a live broadcast race today and imagine what they could do if they had complete 20/20 hindsight of the entire race and ANY camera angle they desire. Think of the coverage you'd have then! I believe that is what's achieveable in sim racing videos, even though the main object (viewers) would remain the biggest hurdle.
I just want to say that every time I use this wheel I'm astonished at how much better it is than the DFP. I still have issues with the pedals and shifter, but the wheel itself is astounding. I can actually feel the rumble strips now, which I never could in the DFP. And I know it's not just wishful thinking because I can actually hear and see the wheel moving as the tires hit the bumps.
For those of you who have a G25 on the way, you're gonna love the wheel. The shifter...maybe not so much.
For those of you who have a G25 on the way, you're gonna love the wheel. The shifter...maybe not so much.
Try driving the G25 with all aids off for 50 laps or so. Trust me, you'll give a LOT of thought to mis-shifts.
I personally feel that the ability to disable auto-clutch is extremely important. Possibly not as important as automatic shift or auto-blip, but very important none the less. Auto-clutch is a driving aid, just like braking help or auto-lift. With auto-clutch enabled it's virtually impossible to have a mis-shift, slow shift, missed gear, etc. There's a reason that the very high-end racing series have now adopted sequential, clutchless transmissions (they have a clutch, of course. but the driver is not required to do the clutching).
Auto-clutch shouldn't matter for the GTR cars since they realistiacally would use sequential boxes, but for the slower cars like the TBO class, the ability to disable auto cluching is extremely important.
I'm sure that what you're talking about could easily be done with the scripting system, or with button mapping. I would hope that people would not feel the need to cheat the system and that any cheat or "workaround" would be able to be dealt with by server admins.
Agreed. I already have a hard enough time remembering if I need to turn left or right for the South City chicane or if I'm running Aston GP or Aston National. Too many layouts gets too confusing.
Why would you want to ban manual clutch? I can see why you'd want to do away with auto-clutch (that's what I'd like to do), but why get rid of manual clutch?
edit: or do you mean a way to get around a server that does ban manual clutch?
I would really, really appreciate that, Monk. Thanks a bunch.
I thought you mentioned such a tool in another thread, but I searched all over and couldn't find it. I'm glad the post here got your attention.
I'm going to take a wild guess that he didn't have an allen wrench handy and had no way to get one when he started this project early in the morning. Cutting the bolts on the pedals is not necessary. You can remove them with a small allen wrench. I've removed the pedals on my G25 to inspect them without a problem and without resorting to cutting anything.
That's not what I said at all. Please do not put words in my mouth. If other people CHOOSE to spend their time making setups, more power to them. Me, personally? I'd rather spend that time doing something else. Perhaps racing?
Yes. So please provide me with a salary and full time pit crew and I'll be more than happy to work on setups. Until you can, some of us would rather not deal with setups at all.
BS. Driving is the job of the driver. Setting up the car is the job of the engineers. You know, there are races out there where all the cars are exactly the same with no setup changes allowed (celebrity races are a great example of this. So are F1 vs Rally vs Indy "shootout" races). But I suppose the winners of these races must be totally random since drivers can't excel by driving alone. :rolleyes:
Even this requires visiting one of the sites that host setups, downloading it manually, then putting it into the right place in the LFS directory tree. A hassle at best. You CAN get setups from people in-game, but if you're doing a league race nobody is going to give you their setup because they don't want to give their opponent an advantage. And even if you DO get a setup from someone, then you're using a setup that was tailored for them. Isn't this the same thing you were just bitching about a few posts back? So, if I make a setup and send it to you that's fine, but if I make a setup and the server sends it to you when you connect that's NOT okay? I fail to see your logic here.
Quite frankly, you have no right to tell me what I can and can't do with a server, should I choose to run one. I feel that public servers are the place where forced setups would do the most good. People who drive in leagues generally run long races, have the time to work on setups, and really need to tailor the car to their driving style. Having a perfect setup is much less important for an 8 lap race around South City. And those short pick-up races are far and away the majority of races in LFS and, therefore, the ones that need this option the most. Nobody is forcing you to play on a server with forced setups so you can feel free to play what you like.
What is so horrid about the default LFS setups? They're not the fastest setups around (which just proves my point even further, since anyone not running a tweaked setup is going to get dusted) but they're very driveable and good for beginners. I have no idea what NASCAR has to do with this discussion at all.
Again, I would say you're looking at this the complete opposite of how others like myself are seeing it. In a top level league you have the time to commit to making setups and you need every last tenth of a second you can get. It is in these leagues that setup is most important. When you have drivers of varying skill or drivers who want to compete on driving alone, and not on the quality of their setup, that's when forced setups would be a welcome addition.
I agree that there will always be some who try the suicide moves. It happens in real life and it will happen in a sim. However; at the very least the people who try this would get SOME sort of punishment if the game had better damage modeling. As it is now they can generally continue driving without a problem even after plowing straight through a tire barrier.
I wasn't around for S1 so I don't know about this "solution" being proposed then. However; I do know that damage hasn't really gotten any better since S1. Some would argue it's even worse now since it takes quite a bit of over-revving to get even minimal engine damage. I think that server side controls, engine stalling, and engine/suspension/tire damage need to be the biggest priorities for development. IMO, these are the three things that will increase the realism the most and, in turn, make racing more realistic and intense.
I wasn't around for S1 so I don't know about this "solution" being proposed then. However; I do know that damage hasn't really gotten any better since S1. Some would argue it's even worse now since it takes quite a bit of over-revving to get even minimal engine damage. I think that server side controls, engine stalling, and engine/suspension/tire damage need to be the biggest priorities for development. IMO, these are the three things that will increase the realism the most and, in turn, make racing more realistic and intense.
I think that improved engine and suspension damage, along with bursting radiators and the like would go a long way towards improving the driving standards. People wouldn't be so gung-ho to overtake in a risky corner if they knew they wouldn't be able to drive away afterwards. You shouldn't be able to drive head-on into a tire barrier or armco, then just back up and continue on your merry way.
I don't know how I missed this thread, but you totally stole my idea!!! 
I also have the G25 and I hate the stock pedal placement. I planned to move the gas and brake closer together and figured that if I was going that far I might as well make them hanging as well. I will also likely use MDF to get the setup how I want it, then redo everything in steel once I get the setup exactly how I want it.
You'll have to let us know how you like it after you've had more time to use the new setup.
I also have the G25 and I hate the stock pedal placement. I planned to move the gas and brake closer together and figured that if I was going that far I might as well make them hanging as well. I will also likely use MDF to get the setup how I want it, then redo everything in steel once I get the setup exactly how I want it.You'll have to let us know how you like it after you've had more time to use the new setup.
Please try to put yourself in the shoes of those of us who want this option instead of simply dismissing it because it's not what YOU want. You say "Races should favour those who put in effort to setup and drive well". I would say it's the other way around. Races should not favor those who have no job, no family commitments, etc which enables them to spend hours upon hours working on their setup and perfecting it. I don't have the time to do that and, frankly, even if I did I don't want to. I want to get in and drive. I want to play a racing sim. I do not want to play an engineering sim. And, that is my perogative. You say that it's unfair to make someone drive an unchangeable setup and to penalize those who have the time and knowledge to setup their car properly. I say it's unfair to expect everyone to have that sort of time and knowledge. I would rather race in a series where all the cars are the same and the only thing that can best me is another driver - not a superior setup. Not to mention the fact that having forced setups would be great for those who are new to racing or new to LFS. How discouraging is it for a newbie to get online and race only to find out that they have no chance of keeping up, not because their driving is poor but because their gearing is not right or their ARB is too soft. Forced setups allow for evening the playing field between those with setup knowledge (and the time to implement it) and those without. We all want close racing (that was the #1 selection in the recent poll done in the main forum) and forced setups is just one more OPTION that server admins should have to help in that regard.
edited to tone down my post a bit.
Last edited by Cue-Ball, .
Is there a way to see auto-blip, auto-clutch, etc using Outgauge?
People have been clamoring for a "Hardcore Mode" in LFS for quite a while. Now that the G25 wheel is out, with it's clutch pedal and H-shifter, I'm becoming even more interested in running a "no-aids" race league, where drivers must race with no auto-clutch, no auto-blip, no throttle-cut, etc. The problem is that there is currently no way to see what aids each driver is using when you're in the game.
I know that LFS replays have this information, so I can only assume that it's recorded using Outgauge. Does anyone know for sure? Has anyone developed a tool which would show whether a driver was using a particular driving aid or not? Is there any way to run an Outgauge tool that would intermittently check each driver in a race and either report them via a system message or kick them from the server? Can the same thing be done to monitor car setup? For instance, send a message if spring rate is above a certain threshold or if first gear != X?
Any help would be appreciated. Note that I am not a programmer, nor do I play one on TV.
I know that LFS replays have this information, so I can only assume that it's recorded using Outgauge. Does anyone know for sure? Has anyone developed a tool which would show whether a driver was using a particular driving aid or not? Is there any way to run an Outgauge tool that would intermittently check each driver in a race and either report them via a system message or kick them from the server? Can the same thing be done to monitor car setup? For instance, send a message if spring rate is above a certain threshold or if first gear != X?
Any help would be appreciated. Note that I am not a programmer, nor do I play one on TV.
Forced setups are just one more way of evening out the playing field - much like ballast. This is especially true for people like me who don't have time to spend testing, adjusting, and retesting setups for each particular race. I don't want to play pit chief, I just want to race. If there were a server with forced setups available (or if I were able to start my own) I would MUCH prefer to race on it than a server which allows setup changes. Forcing setups would allow for "showroom stock" type racing and would guarantee that you're not getting beat by someone else simply because they spend every day after school perfecting their setup.
For some people, working towards and achieving that perfect setup is part of the fun. For me it is not. I just want to get in and drive without worrying that I'm uncompetitive because I didn't spend hours getting my sway bar and camber settings perfect.
Last edited by Cue-Ball, .
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