I didn't see this mentioned in the thread, but is this caused by loading the actual car model? For instance, if everyone on the server is driving the XRT, and someone joins, is there stutter (since the XRT model should already be in memory)? If you're driving the XRT but someone joins in a different car, is that what causes the stutter?

I'm also curious if anyone has tried turning off skin downloading to see if it fixes the problem. I don't think this is skin related, but that would at least rule out one more thing.

Quote from luftrofl :

I'm typing and editing as I go so I could care less about being grammatically perfect as long as the point gets across. Your post really sounded like you were complaining about how tires smoke when you locked them up going in a straight line. That seems like a bigger issue than minor grammar errors.

You misread what I wrote. Twice. I don't care about your grammar; only that you understand what I'm suggesting.

I'm discussing these three things: 1) when going in a straight line, and locking up the tires, or when sliding sideways down the track, far too little smoke is generated. 2) The smoke disappears almost instantly, even with no wind. 3) When going in a straight line, with a flatspot, but the tires are turning (not skidding or sliding), smoke is generated when it should not be.

Quote from luftrofl :

It's already been agreed upon, but it's been put off due to the computing power required to do it, IIRC. The best option is to stop asking.

I'd also like to point out that your point #3 is completely wrong. The angle of the tire in relation to the motion of the car has no effect on the amount of smoke that comes off. The amount of smoke created is determined by the force being exerted downwards on the tire during the lock up, the surface area of the tire being dragged across the track, and the speed at which the tire is being dragged across the track.
In short, an increase in friction/resistance means an increase in smoke created by the skidding tire.

Did you pass physics class?

Did you pass English class?

My third point was addressing the fact that the tires smoke even when you're driving along in a straight line, with no tire skid and no slip angle. Once the tires get a hot spot, that spot will smoke every time it touches the pavement. If you drive along with one hot section of tire, you'll get a small puff of smoke every time that section touches the ground.

I realize that the smoke can be somewhat of a CPU hog. I also realize that Scawen is a pretty talented guy who might be able to optimize the current code further, or implement some other way of handling the smoke that is less processor intensive. There are plenty of other things that should probably take priority over this, but you never know when he'll be mucking around in that portion of the code and decide to make a change.

Even though this thread is quite old, I'm going to bump it. I was playing LFS the other day and there was a wreck ahead of me. Cars were sliding sideways but there was virtually no smoke at all from the locked tires. This really detracted from the immersion of the game because instead of thinking "where can I cleanly get through" I was thinking "why can I see so well"?

I think three things need to be addressed:

1) The tires need to produce a LOT more smoke, when under the proper conditions. When a car locks up coming into the corner, smoke should be pouring off the tire, as it does in real life.

2) The smoke needs to stay around a lot longer. Even with wind turned off, smoke disappears after a few seconds. In real life tire smoke hangs around, even with cars driving through it at over 100mph, and even if it's fairly windy.

3) The behavior needs changed so that smoke is not produced when it shouldn't be. For instance, if I lock my tire going into a corner, every time that section of tire touches the ground a small puff of smoke comes off. It needs to be coded so that if the tire is turning at the same (or very nearly the same) speed as the pavement is going underneath, no smoke is generated.

I think it's important to address the last issue first, since otherwise you'll get a lot of smoke when you should have none (where as right now you get a little smoke when you should have none, and a little smoke when you should have a lot).

Quote from deggis :

Maybe Electrik Kar and some other texture modders should team up and create some kind of all-in-one type "Unofficial Community Texture Addon" pack or whatever.

All that's really needed is to compile everything into one easy to install package. The hard part would be picking what to use since there are so many textures out there. Like I said, I've basically cherry picked my favorites and zipped them up for some friends. It wouldn't be too hard to do the same thing, with the authors' permission, and throw it up as a torrent.

Quote from deggis :

isn't that compressed option for skins only?

There are two options. One is for the compressed/uncompressed skins and the other is for full/half textures.

Edit: For what it's worth, I think that all of Electrik Kars textures should be included with LFS, replacing the current textures. It wouldn't add much to the size of the archive but would GREATLY increase the out-of-the box perception of the game.

I've got a big directory with all of Electrik's textures, plus some updated dashboards, tire treads, sidewalls, etc. I've zipped the whole thing up and given it to my friends who play LFS. The difference is amazing, but most people don't have the time or patience to wade through the forums and sites to find better textures.

Last edited by Cue-Ball, Mon 30 Apr 2007, 18:01.

Ian - It doesn't matter if the stuff in LFS meets your lofty requirements or not. You try the demo, decide you like it, then buy the full game. So long as the full game reflects the demo (and it does), that's all that matters.

Now, if the demo played perfectly and the full version didn't, you might have a leg to stand on. But, since the two are essentially the same, other than the extra cars and tracks, they are comparable. So you DID get what you paid for: the demo, with some extra cars and tracks added. If you paid thinking that EVERY one of your desires would be fulfilled by now, that was your mistake.

I actually agree with you about many of the points you've made. I also would like to see many things addressed, and would really enjoy some faster progress. But, complaining that you didn't get what you expected is nobody's fault but your own.

Quote from axus :

I think the only way to force people to *react* to start lights rather than *expect* them is to give anyone with a reaction of less than 0.1s after green a penalty. It's how it's done in real life after all.

I think that's a bad idea. If someone is willing to gamble a 30 second penalty for a .1 second advantage, that is their prerogative. However, the time it takes for the start lights to go out needs to be a little more random in order to stack those odds in favor of the house.

Quote from mike11973 :

How and where do I go about updating these?

Have you programmed a tool that uses InSim? If so, you should look at the programmer subforum. If not, you don't need to do anything.

Quote from nuntius_deorum :

Err... I just spent 15 minutes trying to explain why I think it's needed, where have you been?

I was just trying to explain that MOST people turn that stuff off and think it feels better without. I thought perhaps you had something else set wrong and needed centering to compensate. IMO, if your settings are correct then you shouldn't get any "incorrect" feelings from the force feedback in the first place.

Quote :

It actually does... I reckon it basically works like this: .....Now, if you set wheel turn compensation to 0 the game takes the full turn ratio of the car

Yes, if you leave the wheel set to 900* AND you have wheel compensation set to 0, then you'll use all 900*. But why in the world would you WANT to do such a thing?

Quote :

1) like I said, you are actually turning the wheel too much in 540° or 450° etc. cars

Not if the wheel is set to 720*. I can physically turn the wheel past 540* (or 450*, or whatever that particular car is using), but it doesn't matter at that point since I'm already at full lock.

Quote :

2) damper effect setting is not used in LFS (=useless)

That's why I said to turn it off.

Quote :

3) try drifting with 900° and your settings, and see if you can end the slide without tearing apart the FF motors . I bet you can't

Again, why in the world would anyone want to run 900* when the largest lock-to-lock used by any car in the game is 720*? It just makes no sense. What's the point?

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Yep, I am finding this as well. Testing on the drag strip yesterday the intervals were for all intents and measurable without equipment purposes, indentical.

Well, the lights on the drag strip really need to be handled differently, because they SHOULD be measurable and identical all the time. Different classes use different timings, but all drag racing sanctioning bodies use lights that are precisely timed to be exactly the same each time. In drag racing, you're SUPPOSED to try to time the lights.

I think we should have a spinoff thread which addresses the start lights. We need to look at the different race sanctioning groups and how each of them handles start lights. I think that most of them turn on the red lights, leave the reds lit for several seconds, then turn them off for "go", with no green lights being lit at all. Perhaps moving to such a system would make things better?

Quote from nuntius_deorum :

ok after you asked I checked my settings (it was 100% in LFS and 100% in logitech profiler) and tweaked them: I managed to correct this problem a bit by adding a strong centering spring: now it's 98% overall and 150% centering spring in logitech profiler, 60% in LFS.

Most people will advise you to turn off centering spring. It's a canned effect that the Logitech drivers put in, which is not needed or generated by LFS.

Quote :

Still, I reckon a centering spring is not very sim-like, so maybe FF should be tweaked by our devs. And yes, I'd like the G25 FF motors to have less strenght to gain some speed.

I hope the devs don't change anything. LFS is one of the only sims in which the force feedback doesn't totally suck.

Quote :

oh, and the wheel is set to 900° in logitech profiler but only 720° in LFS, so I can use the whole 900 even if the cars should have only 720..

It doesn't really work that way. Once you hit 720* you're already at the maximum. Turning your wheel further doesn't do anything because the steering of the car is already locked.

Here are the settings I use. Maybe give them a shot and see if it feels better to you:

Logitech profiler set to 720*. Forces at 100%. Centering spring off. Damper effect off. Combined pedals off.

In LFS: 720*, wheel turn compensation = 0, force strength = ~60%, Shifter. If you drive the wide tired cars a lot, you'll probably want less force strength. If you drive the skinny road tired cars a lot, you'll want it relatively high.

Quote from Cr!t!calDrift :

I need help. Whenever a pop up (windows updates; MSN, etc..) comes on, i get down to about 2fps. Normally it runs perfectly, but now its otherwise...

I usually get about 40fps

Scawen mentioned in another thread that it is a Windows issue that he has no control over. If you do a search you may be able to find his post. You should probably have that stuff turned off while you're playing anyway.

Also, your issue is no more important than anyone else's, so please don't post in all bold like that unless it's REALLY urgent.

Would it be possible for people complaining about framerate issues in the newer patches to do a comparison using the Unofficial LFS Benchmark. The old replays can still be viewed when running the latest patch, so it should be very easy to tell EXACTLY how much faster or slower each new patch is. In addition, we can tell if the maximum frame rate or minimum frame rate is the most affected. That should help narrow down LOD problems if the minimum drops significantly but the maximum is relatively unchanged.

Quote from gwendoline :

Insim do turn sacred by respect to gentil leagues organizers :bowdown:
Insim changes do turn more spaced please....dont touch pleaaaaaase or only in real necessary.
Remember devs leagues in progress build and increase this community....less leagues=less LFSfans

InSim was changed specifically to support programming for leagues and new InSim tools. The programmer forum is littered with requests for InSim changes, so Scawen listened to the requests and made the changes.

If YOU don't want to have to rewrite your tool, I can understand that. But virtually everyone else wanted these changes because they can now make their tools better and more efficient (and no more relays required!).

Quote from GeForz :

You only need 11 Player and a sevrer configured to handle 3 cars per connection

Not sure if that would work since AI can't pit.

Quote from BrandonAGr :

An automatic LOD reduction when there are many cars are on screen would be a great feature

LOD reduction is already in the game. It's just a matter of some machines being so slow that even with LOD reduced all the way, it's not enough.

Quote from hackerx :

Unfortunately Scawen thinks that you're not supposed to actually drive in this view.

He's not the only one.

If you guys manage to get a full grid, could someone please save a replay or two? Some people are complaining that their machines won't be able to handle that many cars if they're on the back of the grid. It would be nice to have a replay that can be used as a benchmark. That way, people will know exactly what to expect when the new patch goes "gold".

The problem is that most of the stuff that makes drag racing so fun (and difficult) in real life is missing from LFS. In-game, the conditions are always the same. Once you find a good setup, there's no reason to ever change it. Track temps, rubber groove, a working clutch, blown engines, stalled cars, clutch/transmission/rearend damage, etc. Not to mention the longitudinal grip issue (which I think will be fixed in Patch Y, if Scawen's comments are any indication). These things are what makes getting a good quarter mile run so challenging, but they are not simulated in LFS.

I think drag racing in LFS is going to remain very niche until we get some sort of changing track conditions that necessitate different tire choice, picking a good line, heating the tires properly, etc. But, every little bit helps. Today is false starts. Maybe tomorrow will be proper staging and a better clutch model with the ability to bog the car and stall.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

What does this mean?

If any powers that be are reading, 60 foot splits would be nice in the drag racing.

Staging is when you pull your car up and trigger the two yellow lights that signals you are ready to race.

http://www.nhra.com/basics/basics.html

I didn't watch the replay, but I don't know how you could do a burnout in a RWD vehicle if you start the race already staged.

The AI have no idea about tire temps, fuel level, fuel or passenger weight, or road camber. Until those things are changed, they probably won't be very fast on any track that has moderate camber, and they will continue to drive as though they have low fuel weight, even if they are saddled with a fuel tank.

I don't know what causes the oscillating steering and on/off braking, but I'm sure Scawen will look into both before S2 final.

I haven't tried the drag racing in LFS in ages, since there weren't false starts or most of the other stuff that makes drag racing so fun in real life. The new false starts are definitely a step in the right direction.

Does the drag track support staging yet?

Quote from mrbogeyman :

Cars driving past has always been disappointing. Fair enough you might not really hear them from behind, but as soon as they begin to pass you should really hear them, especially once in front. In fact I would hazzard a guess that on a busy straight with several cars in front it should be nearly impossible to hear your own exhaust!

I can remember my trackday at Knockhill when all I wanted to do was follow that damn fast TVR Sagaris! It's exhaust note was second to none that day and could be heard from way down the back straight in a following car, but in LFS I would have to be literally 1m from its backside to hear it's exhaust.

I agree with this. It seems like the exhaust note isn't loud enough and doesn't carry far enough. It's almost like the sound of the car is coming from the inside. Easy to hear in the car, but not so loud and falls off fast when you're outside the car (either external camera, or following other cars).

Other than this, it seems like almost all of the non-engine sounds are missing (though we now have transmission and diff whine). Gear shifts are very quiet, there's no noise from gravel or marbles on the undercarriage, there's no creaks/groans/rattles from interior bits, there's no brake noise. Outside of the car itself, there's no noise from fans in the stands, nothing from the announcers, nothing from pit crews, etc.

I think that the sounds of the cars themselves need more "fill", but even more than that, sounds other than the engine/trans are what are really missing. Of course, a lot of those exterior sounds will be out of place without the visual stuff that goes with them (more people in the stands, people in the pits). In addition, we don't really know the limitations of the sound system in LFS and whether or not it can do what we want to hear without significant work. Hopefully it can.

I hate oval driving, but I would really love to see an 800hp V8 stock car in the game. I would prefer to drive that over any of the current GTR cars. Also, because stock car bodies are pretty generic, it should be easy to please race fans who want to make skins of their favorite drivers.