I'm eagerly awaiting the next version of this tool. Combined with LFSTV this could be an excellent way to watch live races without missing important events and without needing a live person (or crew of people) to manage the cameras.
Edit: A few quick suggestions of things to think about for future versions...
Prioritizing of events by the user on a 1-X scale. For instance, a car hitting a wall might have highest camera priority (1), while a car passing another has a priority of 2 or 3, a car going onto the grass has a priority of 7, a pit stop has a priority of 8, etc. So, if two events are taking place at once the program knows which to focus on. You could even have two cars X meters apart with one priority and two cars with X+10 meters apart as another, lower priority.
I'm not sure if it's possible since you're using Shift-U for the cameras, but in-car cams, bumper cams, and rearward facing cams would be nice to see as well. It would help break up the monotony of the dozen or so static track cameras.
Edit: A few quick suggestions of things to think about for future versions...
Prioritizing of events by the user on a 1-X scale. For instance, a car hitting a wall might have highest camera priority (1), while a car passing another has a priority of 2 or 3, a car going onto the grass has a priority of 7, a pit stop has a priority of 8, etc. So, if two events are taking place at once the program knows which to focus on. You could even have two cars X meters apart with one priority and two cars with X+10 meters apart as another, lower priority.
I'm not sure if it's possible since you're using Shift-U for the cameras, but in-car cams, bumper cams, and rearward facing cams would be nice to see as well. It would help break up the monotony of the dozen or so static track cameras.
Last edited by Cue-Ball, .
Agreed. I'd like to have it as realistic as possible, though it may have to be a bit oversized from real life because of the limitations of monitor resolutions.
Does this mean that we'll be able to get rid of the octagonal wheels now?
I also believe that the setups for the road cars should be minimized. These cars have full interiors and road legal tires. Now who in their right mind is going to have an infinitely adjustable roll bar, fully adjustable dampers, coilover springs, 5* of front camber, etc, etc, etc without even having slicks or a rollcage?
It's quite obvious that these are NOT race cars. They're road cars. Since every single road car has a race equivalent, why should the road cars need so much adjustability? If you want a race car drive the XRR, not the XRT.
The road cars need to be configured closer to reality. A few gearing options, a few ride height options, a few damper settings, a few ARB settings. Street legal road cars with a few aftermarket bits. These cars should be track day road cars, not full on race cars. No more of this infinitely adjustable gearing and damper foolishness.
It's quite obvious that these are NOT race cars. They're road cars. Since every single road car has a race equivalent, why should the road cars need so much adjustability? If you want a race car drive the XRR, not the XRT.
The road cars need to be configured closer to reality. A few gearing options, a few ride height options, a few damper settings, a few ARB settings. Street legal road cars with a few aftermarket bits. These cars should be track day road cars, not full on race cars. No more of this infinitely adjustable gearing and damper foolishness.
I agree that rallycross just isn't as fun as it could be because of the 50/50 gravel/tarmac tracks. If we had some proper rally stages that were completely dirt or gravel I'd love to race on those.
Unfortunately, those types of tracks would not be very good for multiplayer head-to-head racing. They're just too narrow for multiple cars. In addition, because they would be point to point races there would not be much reason to ever bother with setup changes. Track temp and conditions never change, number of laps never changes, etc. Once you get a good setup and drive the track a few times, the novelty would probably wear off (One VERY long road split into many stages might have a lot of replayability though).
Barring some sort of random track generator, I think the best solution would be make a system which works like the current autocross layout editing, but with a large dirt area and jumps/berms instead of cones. This would give us a sort of stadium racing and would allow us to have virtually unlimited tracks.
Of course, we'd also need a stadium truck to make the most of it as well.
Unfortunately, those types of tracks would not be very good for multiplayer head-to-head racing. They're just too narrow for multiple cars. In addition, because they would be point to point races there would not be much reason to ever bother with setup changes. Track temp and conditions never change, number of laps never changes, etc. Once you get a good setup and drive the track a few times, the novelty would probably wear off (One VERY long road split into many stages might have a lot of replayability though).
Barring some sort of random track generator, I think the best solution would be make a system which works like the current autocross layout editing, but with a large dirt area and jumps/berms instead of cones. This would give us a sort of stadium racing and would allow us to have virtually unlimited tracks.
Of course, we'd also need a stadium truck to make the most of it as well.
I think this could be very helpful if this data were also available to InSim apps. I'd really like to hear stuff like this from my crew chief when using LFS Companion. ie: "The leader has taken fuel and all four tires".
I'm not sure how useful script commands would be for pit stops. The last thing I want to do when I'm driving is take my hands off the wheels to type. I made a suggestion for improving pit stops in another thread and I'll repeat it here:
The number pad should be used to control pitting. The corner keys (7,9,1,3) could be used to toggle tire changes on/off. The 8 and 2 keys could be used for brake bias. The + and - could be used for fuel level. The 4 and 6 could be used for rear ARB adjustment.
So, for instance, I'm on lap 15 and getting ready to pit. I can press 7 and 9 to toggle off front tire changes (only the rear two tires would be changed). Then I can hit + a few times to increase the amount of fuel I get during the pit stop. Since the rear tires will be fresh and cold I want to adjust the brake bias forward and soften the rear ARB, so I press 8 two or three times and press 4 twice.
Most of this could be done using the existing F12 menu, but my way seems much faster and more intuitive. There's no need to open the menu and there's nothing to type. In addition, this would allow people to change each tire individually instead of being forced to change tires after X% of wear like it is now (this system is really poor). So, if I flatspot my right front during an endurance race I can pit and change just that one tire without having to change all four or know how much tread I've used on that particular tire.
Edit: This could be used to control whether or not damage is fixed as well. The / key could toggle fixing major damage, and the * key could toggle the fixing of minor damage. That way, people who have slight body damage could opt not to fix it, and people who have heavy damage, but who don't want to sacrifice the time, can opt to continue on while damaged.
I'm not sure how useful script commands would be for pit stops. The last thing I want to do when I'm driving is take my hands off the wheels to type. I made a suggestion for improving pit stops in another thread and I'll repeat it here:
The number pad should be used to control pitting. The corner keys (7,9,1,3) could be used to toggle tire changes on/off. The 8 and 2 keys could be used for brake bias. The + and - could be used for fuel level. The 4 and 6 could be used for rear ARB adjustment.
So, for instance, I'm on lap 15 and getting ready to pit. I can press 7 and 9 to toggle off front tire changes (only the rear two tires would be changed). Then I can hit + a few times to increase the amount of fuel I get during the pit stop. Since the rear tires will be fresh and cold I want to adjust the brake bias forward and soften the rear ARB, so I press 8 two or three times and press 4 twice.
Most of this could be done using the existing F12 menu, but my way seems much faster and more intuitive. There's no need to open the menu and there's nothing to type. In addition, this would allow people to change each tire individually instead of being forced to change tires after X% of wear like it is now (this system is really poor). So, if I flatspot my right front during an endurance race I can pit and change just that one tire without having to change all four or know how much tread I've used on that particular tire.
Edit: This could be used to control whether or not damage is fixed as well. The / key could toggle fixing major damage, and the * key could toggle the fixing of minor damage. That way, people who have slight body damage could opt not to fix it, and people who have heavy damage, but who don't want to sacrifice the time, can opt to continue on while damaged.
Last edited by Cue-Ball, .
I would say that's an opinion, not "the fact of the matter". And I would wholeheartedly disagree. The physics in LFS are probably the best of any sim on the market. They're not perfect, but they're very, very good. Good enough that now the physics are no longer the limiting factor for the sim. The damage model, audio, etc are the weak link. The graphics are just fine. Maybe not as fancy as GTR2, but definitely workable.
I agree with you on this. A simple engine damage model would be better than none. However; I would really like to see damage due to over-revving and engine braking as well. The way engine braking is handled in LFS is probably the most unrealistic thing about the whole sim, IMO.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Even though I *really* want to see the clutch model improved I think that both are equally important. I think that the clutch improvements would have a greater effect on the feel of the car, but I think that damage improvements would have a greater effect on realism as a whole, and would help to prevent people from driving at 11/10ths all the time, which is what happens now.
I felt much the same way about GTR as you do about GTR2. When GTR2 came out I figured I'd give it a shot since it was only $20. The first couple of days I *hated* it. The FF was horrible, the car handling was deplorable, etc. I forced myself to spend a little time with it and tweak a few things.
I made some changes to the FF so that there's no "wet noodle" FF during understeer. It made a WORLD of difference. I also changed some of the visual force feedback settings so that the car seems to be moving, not my virtual head. Again, that made a huge difference. The last change I made was to tweak the setups a bit to get rid of the crazy understeer many of the cars have (I've spent most of my time in the NGT Porsches).
These three changes have made GTR2 a totally different game, IMO. The UI still blows and the multiplayer is a pain, but for GT type racing I think GTR2 is a superior experience. The graphics, the traction, etc. makes it a better experience for me. However; if you want to drive road cars, open wheelers, etc you're out in the cold with GTR. This fact, combined with the poor multiplayer component (not the net code, but the whole experience) has brought me back to LFS. I'll still give GTR2 some of my time. It can be fun and challenging, and it's great for when there's nobody online or if I just want a quick race. But, for real head to head racing I'll stick with LFS.
I made some changes to the FF so that there's no "wet noodle" FF during understeer. It made a WORLD of difference. I also changed some of the visual force feedback settings so that the car seems to be moving, not my virtual head. Again, that made a huge difference. The last change I made was to tweak the setups a bit to get rid of the crazy understeer many of the cars have (I've spent most of my time in the NGT Porsches).
These three changes have made GTR2 a totally different game, IMO. The UI still blows and the multiplayer is a pain, but for GT type racing I think GTR2 is a superior experience. The graphics, the traction, etc. makes it a better experience for me. However; if you want to drive road cars, open wheelers, etc you're out in the cold with GTR. This fact, combined with the poor multiplayer component (not the net code, but the whole experience) has brought me back to LFS. I'll still give GTR2 some of my time. It can be fun and challenging, and it's great for when there's nobody online or if I just want a quick race. But, for real head to head racing I'll stick with LFS.
The test patches add a lot of new functionality and bug fixes. Even though they're "test" patches they have always been very stable to me and I thoroughly enjoy the new features. Besides, it's not like you're taking a big risk by running a patch on an Alpha program anyway.
Well, they are all RWD and the don't have downforce. I would think that two or more people driving them at the same time would probably be racing. So, those cars would seem to fit his criteria.
Though, if it were the two of us it would just be me racing and you following along.
Monk - I connected to your server tonight and did some testing on it. It works great! I tested all of the in-game aids other than keyboard assists and each time I wouldn't even get out of the pits before being kicked to spectate. Ditto for changing options while already out on the track.
I got your tool to work on my machine as well. I just had my insim port set to something other than 29999. The tool works perfect as is, but I might see if I can add a few other options and maybe see about adding an interface so that server admins can turn on/off each option as they please.
Thanks a bunch for the program and your efforts so far!
I got your tool to work on my machine as well. I just had my insim port set to something other than 29999. The tool works perfect as is, but I might see if I can add a few other options and maybe see about adding an interface so that server admins can turn on/off each option as they please.
Thanks a bunch for the program and your efforts so far!
LX4, LX6, XRG, XRT, FZ5...
Yes, sorry. It was Chops I was thinking of. I was reading the thread with Chops, LotF, Eagles, etc the other day and for some reason LotF just stuck in my head.
If we're going to do any indoor or building tracks, let's just open the South City parking garages. I'd love to do some laps up and down those ramps!
Where are you located, COOP? If you're on the West Coast we might be able to organize something a little more regular. I'd like to have weekly races with people in the same general area so that pings are low and time zones aren't an issue. I'd love to find more guys who are up for a "hardcore" experience too as my friends and I are planning to race no-driving aids races shortly.
There are plenty of us in the US who play, but not too many who play during the day, especially on weekdays. Check on Sunday afternoons and evenings and you're guaranteed to find racers. Core and Land of the Free both host servers which have plenty of Americans and Canadians playing. LotF hosts weekly Sunday Cup races as well.
If there's a certain time of the week that you're available, let us know and maybe you'll find a few other racers who are available then as well. Just keep in mind that a lot of us have full time jobs, wives, kids, dogs, home repairs, etc, etc, etc which limits our racing time.
If there's a certain time of the week that you're available, let us know and maybe you'll find a few other racers who are available then as well. Just keep in mind that a lot of us have full time jobs, wives, kids, dogs, home repairs, etc, etc, etc which limits our racing time.
I think now we're getting to the root of the reason you don't want no-aids servers.
Trying to even out the uneven TBO cars using driving aids is flawed logic at best. How you can even say that auto-clutch is more realistic than manual clutch truly boggles my mind.
Then perhaps you should buy a wheel?
This is highly doubtful. Auto-clutch is faster than axis clutch. Period. And auto-blip is easier than heel-toeing manually. Unless you are a driving god I seriously doubt that you would be faster with aids turned off. ONE mistake, ONE mis-shift, or ONE missed gear can cost you enough time to lose the race. And even if you are faster, it's a lot more work driving with them off. I shouldn't have to do more work to drive the same speed as someone else just because they don't have a clutch pedal.
No, we don't have to be more considerate. This is supposed to be a sim. If people want to play a sim as it was meant to be played, they need a wheel. If they are unwilling to get a wheel then that's their problem, not mine. The LFS community is plenty big enough to support servers with aids forced off and aids allowed. If you don't think it is big enough, feel free to host your own server with aids allowed. You're not helpless in this matter, you know.
There's a difference between being an elitist and wanting to drive a fair race against other people with the same equipment and interests. How would you like it if I got to drive with traction control and ABS but you didn't? I'm sure you would cry foul. But when YOU are the one being given the advantage it's suddenly not a problem.
NOW we're getting to the real issue. You're not some savior of the non-G25 users. You are simply worried that you'll have fewer servers to play on for yourself! This is a case of market forces at work. One of two things will happen: 1) People will start "hardcore" servers with driving aids disabled, others will like this idea and will join or 2) nobody will join the aids-disabled servers. If people DO join, as I predict, then we will know exactly which direction the sim and the market as a whole are moving. If nobody joins then we'll know that you're right and that there's not enough demand (yet) for driving aids to be disabled. Either way, the market decides for itself which direction it's going to go. If there is demand for no-aids servers they'll still be around. If there is no demand, then they won't be.
Yes, it's lost on you, apparently, since you're trying to force server admins to cater to your demands rather than allowing them to run settings which they feel suits them and their users the best.
Last edited by Cue-Ball, .
Nobody is forcing you to use those options or forcing you to join a server with those options enabled. Clutch pedals and H-shifters are becoming more and more common and are the way of the future. Keep up or be left behind.
Why should I be forced to race against someone who gets to have the computer do all the work of clutching and shifting?
I don't understand a word of what they're saying, but I think this is the best vid I've seen so far. They show a walkthrough of the grid with driver names and qualifying highlights. They've got great looking overlays, including an animated logo for the series. The cars all look pretty professional with no real sloppy paint jobs or odd logos. The only knock against this vid is that they use the in-game cameras and tab through the field, in addition to using several "gamey" camera angles. Otherwise, this is top notch!
I'm not sure that it would be a league at all, since I don't have the bandwidth to host the kind of server a league would require. More than likely this would be a server that I would host via my home connection on the weekends where people who want to drive the road cars the "hard way" would be able to do so without worrying that they're being beaten by someone using auto-clutch, auto-blip, etc (I say road cars because GTR and open wheel cars generally have driving aids built into the car). Hopefully once people have had a chance to try playing on a server with driving aids disabled some leagues would begin to form around the idea. Now that the G25 is shipping in large quantities I think we'll start to see a LOT more people who want to race with all of the driving aids turned off and still be able to have a fair race.
Monk - I haven't had a chance to try your tool again yet. As soon as I get a spare moment (and i'm not at work
) I'll be sure to try it and report back.This is part of the problem. If LFS were changed so that driving aids were not faster than doing it yourself, it would help even things out. But, even then, if I want to host a server with only no-aids drivers that should be my perogative.
There is no such thing as a public server in LFS. All servers are privately owned and run by either a person or a group (usually a league or race team). So, by your own logic, servers should be able to do whatever they want.
In that case I won't bother. Having a good sounding car isn't worth it if I have to give up all the other car's sounds. I'll just use CSR with the engine noise off. That way I still get the gear whine, at least.
This is the problem I had with it. It sounded muddled and messy.
I didn't change any of my LFS volume settings, but I did lower CSR to level 1. It still didn't sound good. I'd really like to know what volume settings people are using for their mp3 captures that sound so great.
Yup. That's the only version I've tried. I didn't hear anything in the FZR but admittedly spent most of my time in the LX6 trying to get one of the sound packs working. I'll try turning down LFS's engine noise, but i'm wondering if that will make my opponents cars quieter too?
I was thinking that would be better for "good enough" videos and live broadcasts. It probably wouldn't save you much time because of the format you use.
[quoteAgain though the issue becomes that of hand versus machine. Do programmers really know best? I sit on both sides of the fence here and I chose to do it by hand, I think that says a lot...[/quote]I agree that a human doing camera work by hand is generally going to be better. A machine will never have the same eye for beauty that a human does. However; the machine has a LOT of advantages over a human in that it can examine multiple camera angles, multiple cars, etc all at the same time. This is difficult to impossible for a human and can give a computer program a definite edge when it comes to "good enough" videos.
I tried CSR last night and it just didn't do anything for me. I like the gear whine, but the engine noises seemed worse to me, not better. Strange, considering some of the previews I've heard sound much better than the in-game sound. I also didn't hear any of the brake squeal that's supposed to be in the newest version.
I must be doing something wrong, because CSR for me doesn't sound nearly as good as the previews I've heard.
I must be doing something wrong, because CSR for me doesn't sound nearly as good as the previews I've heard.
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