I understand what you're trying to say. Unfortunately, you would be practically driving blind.
The biggest things about driving using in-car view are that it gives you a better idea where the car is. You can judge more closely how close you are to the car next to you. Also, in real life you have blind spots from the A/B/C pillars, the dash, the seats, etc. You can't recreate that using bonnet view or wheels view. Similar to flight sims that allow you to turn off the cockpit. In real life pilots have a very small field of view and it's the same thing with cars (tin tops, at least). Working around this isn't true to the experience, in my opinion.
True, but only because the track is reasonably cool at the moment. If LFS ever offers server set track temps (fingers crossed!), that could change things. Heck, even changing the track temp for different tracks could make a big difference. A cool track at Blackwood in England is one thing, but a cool track in Jamaica? Another option would be to set the track temp according to the track and time. For instance, morning in Blackwood the track would be quite cold, while mid-day at Fern Bay the track would be very hot. This would seemingly be a fairly simple change (relatively speaking), but could make races a LOT more interesting. Just imagine leagues that have qualification and a "forecast" for weather. Do you pick the softer tires, hoping it'll stay cool, or do you choose harder tires, betting that the temp will increase before the race starts?
Hopefully this won't be the case by the time S2 is final. I would think that changing the track temp would be fairly trivial, all things considered. At least, changing it for the entire length of the race. Making the track temp change throughout a long race would obviously be somewhat more complex.
Variable weather and new tracks are not really needed to spice things up. Once we have brake pad modeling, changeable track temps, changeable air temps, and much harsher damage modeling, it will be a whole new ballgame. When/if these things are put into the game, you could drive every single day on the same track, and never have the same race twice. Brake fade will come into play big time on the tighter tracks where the discs don't have time to cool. Tires will wear faster and get greasy faster if the track is hot (and people will actually have to use the harder compounds, for a change). Air temps will cause changes in horsepower and will make the turbo and n/a cars run differently against one another. Also, LFS doesn't currently model marbles off the racing line either. Once better damage is implemented, races will require more restraint to bring the car home in one piece. People will have to think twice about tapping the guy in front or risk damaging their radiator. You won't be able to go 100% lap after lap without risking tapping the wall and ending your race. Strategy may require driving off of the racing line to keep cool air on the radiator. Seemingly little things can have a huge effect on races. They just need to be implemented.
Of course, that's not to say I wouldn't like to see some new cars and tracks.
Ah, okay. I hadn't paid much attention to exactly what the penalties were for rolling.
Out of curiosity, what's the distance between cars on the grid? 5 meters or so? Anyone know?
lol! Quite true! I didn't think of that.
Is the roll distance really 4 meters? Wow. That's a huge allowance. I've seen real life racers penalized for rolling less than a foot!
The biggest problem I see with this (other than the hassle to code it) would be that adjusting tire width could drastically change the cornering speeds of the car. Considering that one of the main gripes against the FXO is that the tires are too wide, this could be a real problem for car balancing if you suddenly have multiple widths of tires for each car.
I don't see a problem with having different size wheels, but I think different width tires would upset the game balance quite badly.
I don't see a problem with having different size wheels, but I think different width tires would upset the game balance quite badly.
Not if the person has stepped away from their machine for whatever reason. Quite often people step away after they finish to get a drink, use the bathroom, whatever. Very seldom do they spectate before walking away, so if the race starts before they get back they sit on the start line when the race goes green.
edit: I may have misunderstood what you were asking. I'm not sure.
I don't think that will be an issue, no matter what the final resolution. Scawen said that you have to move a certain distance before you get a penalty. I'm fairly certain that moving an inch or two would not be enough to get penalized.
That sounds like a fine idea to me. Even better, the starting of the engine could signal the game that you are present and ready to race. If you haven't started your car by the time the red lights come on, you are spectated. No holding of the brake, no clicking a dialog box. You just start your car as you normally would and prepare to go. If you start your car without clutching and roll on the start line, then I guess you have to learn how to operate a motor vehicle.
It has relevance with regards to how things work in the real world.
In real life you either have to heel/toe the brake and gas while releasing the clutch, or you have to release the clutch and handbrake at the right time, while pressing the gas, to get a good start. Even on totally flat start lines, drivers often have to keep their foot on the brake because the clutch can cause the car to creep forward (I've seen this in V8 Supercar and BTCC many, many times).
Currently in LFS two pedal users simply mash the gas to the floor, don't worry about rolling, then drop the car in gear when the lights go green. Three pedal users mash the gas to the floor, keep the car in first, then pop the clutch when the lights go green.
Now, are you trying to tell me that both of those situations are equal? I hardly think so. Now, think for a moment about how much MORE difficult getting a good start is going to be for three pedal users once we have stalling and proper longitudinal tire behavior. People using three pedals will have to release the brake, hit the gas, and release the clutch - all of which has to be done just right because too little gas or too quick of a clutch release will stall the car, but too much gas will break loose the tires. While, as before, the people using auto clutch and auto-handbrake will just click down into first gear and pull away cleanly, because the auto-clutch and auto-handbrake will take care of everything like magic.
This will have to be addressed eventually. We might as well discuss it and start thinking about solutions now. Of all the other serious race sims on the market, do ANY of them have an auto-handbrake? I've never seen one. Yet, somehow, they manage to have online races just fine. So why is it such a problem for LFS?
This wouldn't be a feature that anyone is forced into. This would be more along the lines of something that leagues and teams would use, so that the driver can concentrate on driving and the team boss can worry about pit strategy.
Take MoE for instance. You could have Driver #1 in the car and Driver #2 acting as team boss, monitoring the tires, fuel level, and laptimes. Driver #2 says "You've got enough fuel left for about 3 more laps. Prepare to pit soon". Then the driver says "The back end is a little loose, can we adjust the rear ARB?". The team boss would then be able to determine how much fuel will be put into the car, which tires get changed, and what the rear ARB should be set at when the car pits. The driver just has to concentrate on the race. The team boss takes care of all the pit stop issues.
I think this would be a great tool, but I don't think that InSim supports sending packets to a particular client that can alter their setup. It seems like this type of thing would be required for server-forced setups though. So if that type of thing is ever going to be implemented, Scawen may have to add this functionality to InSim. I dunno.
Speaking only for myself, no. That would not make me happy. In fact, that would be worse than what we have now because people who don't use auto-handbrake would have to do extra work (turning the damn thing off) that the people who use it don't have to do, with no additional benefit.
Again, speaking only for myself here...it's the fact that it exists at all. This is supposed to be the sim where "you drive the car". I don't want the car controlling itself. *I* want to control the car. And I don't want someone who's using a totally unrealistic driving aid to have a huge advantage when they're doing less work and needing less skill. That is the case right now for auto-handbrake, as well as the other driving aids.
Frankly, I don't understand the reasoning behind having it at all. We expect users to be able to drive a (simulated) 600hp car that goes 200mph around a twisty, winding track, but we don't think they're smart enough to press the brake pedal to keep from coasting?
That's understandable. I'm not big on typing or pressing keys myself, but I don't think that one click after each race is a big deal. That's like once every 10 minutes, even for fairly short races. How about "Hold brake to go to grid" or something like that? You hold the brake for 2 seconds and it takes you to the grid, with you holding the brakes, and no handbrake engaged. That would satisfy me.
Here's another idea: How about having auto-handbrake a toggleable driving aid, just like auto-blip, auto-cut, and auto-clutch? So long as it's reported by an InSim packet, people like me who want to run no-aids servers could detect that it's being used and kick that person to spectate. THAT would satisfy me while still allowing everyone else who wants to use this feature to do so. Though, I still think it should really go away. Once a proper clutch and stalling are implemented it will become readily apparent how much of a benefit driving aids like auto-handbrake and auto-clutch are, and I think a lot more people are going to start complaining about the unfair advantage they provide.
Yes, but realize that there are plenty of people out there who finish a race, then jump up to take a leak without going to spectate. The next race starts and they're sitting there, completely motionless on the starting grid when the lights go green. Having to click or do *something* that tells the game "I'm here and ready to go" would be a benefit to everyone. Whether that's clicking a button, moving the wheel side to side, pressing the brake/gas pedal, whatever.
Unfortunately, you're right. I think we're all hoping for improved damage in the future. I'm personally, really, really hoping we get radiator and engine over-rev damage before I'm old and gray. The nearly indestructible cars take away from the immersion and have a bad affect on race results, IMO.
Edit: I think picture 18 on the Round 7 picture page says it all.
I was thinking more about the damage that the back marker had suffered. You came around the corner and plowed into him, but there was little mention that he was running very slowly and that his pace was a major factor in the collision. Also, I thought I saw when he first damaged his car in the chicane, then again in the turn onto the straight, but I don't recall either brush with the wall being mentioned. It would have been nice to see a replay of how his car got so damaged, along with commentary about how slow he was going, "wonder why he didn't get black flagged", etc.
Of course, that's all easier said that done, considering that Becky has to capture all of the footage and patch it together. I just thought it was odd not to get mentioned, that's all.
Could you please detail the "few things" that players have to do at the start now, and then expand on the "more than" few things they would have to do if the auto-handbrake were removed?
From what I can see, the only difference would be pressing on the brake pedal, or perhaps clicking a "go to grid" button. That hardly seems like it requires a lot of effort from the driver.
And it's also easy enough for someone who wants the handbrake engaged to engage it themselves. It's also quite easy for the driver to press the brake pedal as well. Not only are both these options just as easy, but they are logical and realistic as well.
That's a poor way of addressing the problem because it requires more work from some drivers than from others, and because people using the automated system have an infallible, perfect, computer controlled start which people who want to do it manually, like myself, do not have. In other words, you get a benefit by letting the computer do all the work, and there's no penalty. This is just like the auto-clutch, auto-blip, auto-cut aids which have been discussed so much in the past. If someone is going to use the driving aids, they need to be, at the very least, the same speed and precision as someone doing things manually. Right now, all of the driving aids are faster and less accident prone than doing things manually.
Again, this suggestion gives the advantage to the person using the "cheat" rather than the person doing all of the work themselves. This is a backwards way of doing things. If anything, the person using the computer controlled driving aids should be handicapped, not made faster.
Gee, I'm sorry. I thought this was a forum about LFS where customers were supposed to post their thoughts, ideas, and criticisms. I must have been mistaken.
I've been nothing but polite in this thread, and in the patch threads. Instead of bitching and moaning, I've detailed what the problem is and offered multiple solutions which I think would address the problem and make the game better. If you don't like my suggestions, fine. But stop with the personal attacks and quit taking the thread off-topic.
I took notes while I was watching the race and figured I'd offer some constructive criticism. But, before I do that, I just wanna say that this is the best STCC video so far. Every month it gets better, and this broadcast was no exception.
+ I really enjoyed the 3D cars at the beginning. Much better than the grid walkthrough, though it did go a bit fast. I think showing two cars, pausing, then quickly moving to the next two would work best.
+ The new 3D STCC intro logo is excellent. That looks very professional.
+ The "Pits Open" message was nice. I would have liked to see a "Pits Closed" message as well though.
+ The picture-in-picture showing people in the pits was really nice.
- Even though the cars are the same every time, I've always enjoyed the car comparisons in the past. ie: This track has a long straight which should suit the FXO, and the RB4 may have tire trouble due to all the right turns...or whatever.
- The lap counter was jittery. That was a bit distracting, but if you can fix that it's definitely nice to see.
- With all the damage everyone was taking, it didn't seem to get much mention, even after the leader colliding with a damaged backmarker.
- I think the scrolling bar at the bottom should either be moved clear to the bottom or clear to the top. The current position interferes a bit with the view. If it were at the top, it wouldn't intrude as much.
Overall, very, very good coverage this round. I can't wait to see next round!
+ I really enjoyed the 3D cars at the beginning. Much better than the grid walkthrough, though it did go a bit fast. I think showing two cars, pausing, then quickly moving to the next two would work best.
+ The new 3D STCC intro logo is excellent. That looks very professional.
+ The "Pits Open" message was nice. I would have liked to see a "Pits Closed" message as well though.
+ The picture-in-picture showing people in the pits was really nice.
- Even though the cars are the same every time, I've always enjoyed the car comparisons in the past. ie: This track has a long straight which should suit the FXO, and the RB4 may have tire trouble due to all the right turns...or whatever.
- The lap counter was jittery. That was a bit distracting, but if you can fix that it's definitely nice to see.
- With all the damage everyone was taking, it didn't seem to get much mention, even after the leader colliding with a damaged backmarker.
- I think the scrolling bar at the bottom should either be moved clear to the bottom or clear to the top. The current position interferes a bit with the view. If it were at the top, it wouldn't intrude as much.
Overall, very, very good coverage this round. I can't wait to see next round!
I'd love to see some statistics on this. Of the racers that I personally know, only ONE has a two pedal setup. Everyone else has a G25 or other three pedal setup.
Some of us take our racing just as seriously, and don't want to deal with arcadey limitations.
I could swear that you're speaking English, but I haven't a clue what it is you are saying.
I would say that it would be best to leave the "R" or, even better, overlay the whole word "replay" and drop the sphere for a more simple, clean transition. Something like an image flip or a growing frame would look more professional. The sphere is a little too "trying too hard".
A few? Uhhhh...no. A lot of people have the G25 or other three pedal setups.
Even if you don't have three pedals, it's easy to setup a button clutch using a few wood scraps and an old USB gamepad. Put it down next to your brake pedal and it's nearly as good as having an axis clutch.
In the real world, racers don't have their names printed on their starting grid spot. They simply know that they are starting in position X. They know which car is ahead and which is behind, and position themselves accordingly.
If someone cannot manage to get their car placed into the correct box at the start line, they should not be racing.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG