I searched the forum and didn't find a bug for it already. Not a huge issue, as you shouldn't really spend time out on the grass anyway.
Car sinking into the grass.
I was running a bunch of AI cars on Fern Bay Green (rev) to test patch V9 for bugs when I noticed something peculiar. Some of the cars were going off the tarmac and into the grass at a particular section of the track. When they did, they seemed to sink into the ground. Here are two pics showing what happened:
Again, I hope that is not the case. We're only in Alpha mode for S2 right now. There's still plenty of time to add cars and tracks. We've seen what Scawen has been doing. I can only assume that Eric has been similarly productive. Since S2 came out only two layouts for Aston and one car (the BF1) have been added. We already know for sure that GTR interiors are forthcoming. I'm hopeful that at least a few cars are in store as well.
I certainly hope this is not the case. There are so many classes of cars that are not yet represented. A small MR2-like mid engine car would be a perfect addition to the XRG and XFR. A V8 sedan (saloon) is desperately needed to satisfy the oval crowd. We need some sort of mid-engine supercar (and maybe a V10 FR to compete with it). I wouldn't mind seeing a sprint car and a trophy truck. The list goes on and on.
There are a lot of possibilities and many classes of cars which are not yet represented in LFS. I hope that we'll have a least a few of these added before S2 is done.
I think that an online "driving school" and theory of car racing is something who's time has come. I think that the organization and time that is required for a live school is just not practical though. Real race schools can operate because they do it full time and can make a living at it.
I've read many books on racing and driving theory, but many people can't be bothered to pick up a book for themselves. I've also seen some videos, but most of them are woefully outdated (Skip Barber's video, for example). The principles are all sound and apply to LFS as well as real cars, but the production values leave something to be desired.
I think that the best approach to this, and the one that is most likely to be used, is a series of training videos. It could start off with the basics of setting up the game (FF settings, controller settings), cover driving theory (oversteer vs. understeer), car setup, what the different flags mean, what racing line is best and why, etc. With Kegetys excellent ghost mod, we could even distribute training ghost files. Perhaps use a somewhat moderate pace at first, just so the person can follow along and get to know the proper line. Then move on to a faster run with proper braking points and apexes, then finally a full-out lap (race pace, not hotlap) that newbies could strive to beat.
I think that the visual component of the videos would make it easier for people to use, and the interactive ghost would make people stick with it, unlike a book or website that would get boring quite quickly, no matter how interesting the material may be.
I've read many books on racing and driving theory, but many people can't be bothered to pick up a book for themselves. I've also seen some videos, but most of them are woefully outdated (Skip Barber's video, for example). The principles are all sound and apply to LFS as well as real cars, but the production values leave something to be desired.
I think that the best approach to this, and the one that is most likely to be used, is a series of training videos. It could start off with the basics of setting up the game (FF settings, controller settings), cover driving theory (oversteer vs. understeer), car setup, what the different flags mean, what racing line is best and why, etc. With Kegetys excellent ghost mod, we could even distribute training ghost files. Perhaps use a somewhat moderate pace at first, just so the person can follow along and get to know the proper line. Then move on to a faster run with proper braking points and apexes, then finally a full-out lap (race pace, not hotlap) that newbies could strive to beat.
I think that the visual component of the videos would make it easier for people to use, and the interactive ghost would make people stick with it, unlike a book or website that would get boring quite quickly, no matter how interesting the material may be.
I don't think that most road race fans really believe that oval racing doesn't take skill. It obviously does. But that doesn't mean it isn't boring to some people.
Making a perfect banzai tree takes a lot of skill, but you won't catch me watching it on TV.
[quote=lizardfolk;372560]Drag is hard on the mechanic, but not the driver./quote]You obviously have never raced anything in the 11 second or less range. Drag racing is a LOT harder than people who haven't done it seem to think. You don't just mash the gas and steer in a straight line. There are a ton of nuances that can seriously affect performance or send you into the wall (or the other lane). Drag racing is something that PC sims have never modeled well because they do not take into account changing track conditions, different traction for each tire, different traction out of the groove, etc.
Drag racing is not as physically demanding as road racing, since you're not strapped in a 130* car for two hours straight. But it still takes a ton of skill (unless you're racing your mom's Honda) and you can lose the whole race in the blink of an eye. One mistake and your race is over. There is no chance to come back for a win and no way to make up the lost time.
Drag racing is not as physically demanding as road racing, since you're not strapped in a 130* car for two hours straight. But it still takes a ton of skill (unless you're racing your mom's Honda) and you can lose the whole race in the blink of an eye. One mistake and your race is over. There is no chance to come back for a win and no way to make up the lost time.
I wasn't around for S1, but I bought S2 the day after I tried the demo. I doubt I had more than 30 laps before I laid down my money.
Best $50 I ever spent.
Best $50 I ever spent.
Good observation. I agree that the unnecessary stuff (skins, a picture of the car) are the big things that make it cluttered. Getting rid of these things or moving them to their own section could make a huge difference.
I think that quick fixes can be good. But, in this case, I think that the amount of stuff that needs added really requires a total revamp. I think Scawen would be open to redoing the entire setup screen if he had some good ideas to work from. Coming up with the idea and visualizing it can sometimes be more time consuming than making the actual change.
Perhaps if a few of us whip up some visualizations, Scawen would consider making the changes that we want?
I think this is a good idea. For people who play on LAN or who have plenty of bandwidth but don't host many cars, this could be quite useful.
Wow. Those screens are just information overload, IMO. For them to be effective and not intimidate novice users I think that things will have to be reorganized and any settings that are not being used for that particular screen should be hidden. For instance, don't show the controls for spinning and dropping the car when it's not visible.
I think that, as much as possible, things should be graphically represented as well. Most people learn visually, so pictures and graphs can be a big help. GTR2 has some confusing screens, but the setup screens are not bad. You can quickly and easily see where to click for wing adjustment, tire choice, etc. And there is still enough white space so that things don't get too clustered together and hard to read.
What games handle this the best and what games handle this the worst? If we look at what others have done we should be able to come up with the good and bad points of different approaches.
I think that, as much as possible, things should be graphically represented as well. Most people learn visually, so pictures and graphs can be a big help. GTR2 has some confusing screens, but the setup screens are not bad. You can quickly and easily see where to click for wing adjustment, tire choice, etc. And there is still enough white space so that things don't get too clustered together and hard to read.
What games handle this the best and what games handle this the worst? If we look at what others have done we should be able to come up with the good and bad points of different approaches.
Yeah. There are options on how to handle it. The point I was trying to make was that you only really have two main choices: 1) You don't handle it and you end up with rFactor-like server joining problems. 2) You handle it in some way, but then you have to deal with the overhead and programming that it requires. Which means that we get fewer new features and enhancements because Scawen has to spend time getting things to work properly.
Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.
Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.
I think that a lot of LFS' current users would be open to car/track packs. As long as the quality was high, I'd pay for this kind of stuff without hesitation.
The only problem with this is that it could negatively impact how easy it is to jump in and play. Right now LFS is one of the only sims that you can connect to a server and KNOW that it's going to work. Releasing cars/tracks as add-on packs could cause problems when you try to connect to a server that's running a car/track you don't have. This could be fixed by making the executable the same for everyone, but having separate unlocks. But this could get unwieldy for Scawen to code and manage.
Hopefully that won't be the case in the future. Being able to change each tire individually has been requested many times, so I can foresee this changing in InSim too, eventually.
I'm not sure if/how changing the tires on one side or the other would affect your app either. Not sure if you need to take this into consideration or not.
Why would you want to go back to patch V? V5 is the latest and greatest. Seems like most addons work with at least V3.
What is the advantage of using Race Watcher? Why not just fire up LFS and connect as a spectator?
Even if you had unlimited funds there are still restrictions. Many of the gear ratios that are selectable in LFS are simply not possible. They would require gears larger or smaller than is possible or they would require more teeth than is possible. You simply CANNOT select every single tiny adjustment. It is physically impossible (in the real world). Even if you could, it's asinine to do so. And even if you DID have all the money in the world, making such changes would take time. Time that is not accounted for in LFS. In the game you can change ride height by .25" with a few clicks, but in the real world it would take time to adjust all of the springs on the car, to have new rearend gears produced, to create stiffer ARBs, etc.
I would like someone to explain to me how having thirty billion different gearing options is somehow better for the game or the driving experience. What is gained by having 500 ride height adjustments, rather than having 5 of them? What is gained by having 4000 rear end ratios instead of 5? All it does is add needless complexity. Not only are these options unrealistic, but they have bad effects on racing. Newbies have difficulty with setups. People who don't know how to do setup work are at a huge disadvantage. Everyone ends up managing hundreds of different setups for each car, just to stay competitive. How are these things good for the community or the racing?
Says you. I personally feel that it is bad for immersion and realism, and would prefer to always start out from the garage with the engine off.
That is not the case at all. The problem that I have is that the cars, as they stand now, are not the least bit like they would be in real life. Such gearing options would be, literally, impossible. And many of the other options would be possible, but at such a high price that nobody in their right mind would bother.
And you are missing out point entirely, as nobody has said that the cars should be as factory delivered. Please do not put words in my mouth (or the mouths of others who agree). We are saying that the cars need to have realistic setup options. Setup options that are not only available in the real world, but that are attainable by people who are not billionaires.
On this point we agree.
Sounds to me like you lack reading comprehension and/or don't know what the hell you are talking about.
I'm not a hotlapper. I only really use hotlapping for setup testing and learning the tracks. That said, I agree with Tristan and the other guys who want to see cars always start from the pits. This is how it would be in real life and this is how it should be in LFS.
I want immersion and realism. Being magically transported to the other side of the track ruins that, IMO.
I want immersion and realism. Being magically transported to the other side of the track ruins that, IMO.
At this point, no. I think that it was quicker and easier to implement the adjustments that are there now and that is why it was done. Other than the UF1, most of the cars have the exact same adjustments. I think it was easier to put in minimums and maximums and allow everything in between. Defining a specific number of settings for each car would be time consuming and I think Scawen was more concerned with getting it in there than making it perfect on the first try.
Of course anyone COULD do any of the things that we can now do in LFS. If you were Bill Gates you could buy a totally custom suspension, transmission, etc. for your XRG for each track you want to run on. Is this something that would take place in real life? I think not.
As a few people have pointed out, getting an adjustable suspension, new shocks, new ARBs, etc. is not overly expensive. I think this is what the road cars are meant to be: lightly modified everyday cars. This is why I suggested suspension adjustment, just not to the level that the game currently permits. It's absurd to think that someone would buy a one-off transmission, costing thousands of dollars, completely adjustable suspension (caster, camber, ride height, spring rate, damping, etc.), an adjustable diff, brake bias controller, custom ARBs, etc. then put all that stuff in a 115hp FWD car, leaving the stereo and sound deadening in the car, and running around on grooved road tires. Does anyone really think this is a likely scenario?
I think the road cars need *some* adjustment, just like most of the cars that are autocrossed or used for track days. However, I do not think that what we have now is realistic, nor does it make for good racing. If anything, it only widens the gap between those who have the time and knowledge to spend on setups and those who do not. I think that should be left to the race cars and let the road cars be simpler and more straight forward.
I would love to hear Scavier's thoughts on this issue. I don't know Scawen or Eric personally, but I highly doubt that the current situation is what they intended.
I don't disagree that these things are possible. But, they are not common and I don't believe that such modifications fit the devs vision for the road cars. I've seen a twin engine Hyundai before. Since that's *possible*, I suppose we should be able to do that in the game too, according to your logic? What is possible and what is plausible are two different things.
Like I said, if they were meant to be full-on race cars they would have rollcages and no stereos. Yes, you can take your grocery getter to an autocross and not worry about a rollcage. Yes, you can put on aftermarket suspension (which is why I suggested somewhat adjustable ride height, damping, etc). NO car can get the granularity of gear ratios and diff ratios that LFS offers right now. "Road cars", such as the ones in LFS, shouldn't have such things adjustable either. Who in their right mind would spend the money on a custom transmission or diff and springs that are EXACTLY the perfect ride height and stiffness for a particular track, but then not bother with a roll cage, leave the stereo intact, leave the engine bone stock, and keep the car on street tires?
I believe, as I think that most LFS players do, that the road cars are meant to be lightly modified daily driver cars. While some adjustment would be welcome, they should not be treated as race cars or cars with huge amounts of money in the suspension/transmission/diff/etc. This just isn't a likely scenario and is the whole reason that we have multiple classes for each car.
Simply put, LFS needs some cars that are less adjustable and easier to setup, to make it easier for people who are just starting out, to keep the fields even, and to stay true to what a road car is. Not to mention the fact that limiting setups could go a long way towards balancing the classes. I would certainly welcome a new group of cars though. Something between mostly stock road car and the all-out GTR cars that we have now. I would also support opening up all the cars to use slicks, as you mentioned. I think this would be good for everyone, even though you'd very seldom see the street tires used if that were to happen, IMO.
And we still need forced setups, or at least some way to have a "showroom stock" class race.
Like I said, if they were meant to be full-on race cars they would have rollcages and no stereos. Yes, you can take your grocery getter to an autocross and not worry about a rollcage. Yes, you can put on aftermarket suspension (which is why I suggested somewhat adjustable ride height, damping, etc). NO car can get the granularity of gear ratios and diff ratios that LFS offers right now. "Road cars", such as the ones in LFS, shouldn't have such things adjustable either. Who in their right mind would spend the money on a custom transmission or diff and springs that are EXACTLY the perfect ride height and stiffness for a particular track, but then not bother with a roll cage, leave the stereo intact, leave the engine bone stock, and keep the car on street tires?
I believe, as I think that most LFS players do, that the road cars are meant to be lightly modified daily driver cars. While some adjustment would be welcome, they should not be treated as race cars or cars with huge amounts of money in the suspension/transmission/diff/etc. This just isn't a likely scenario and is the whole reason that we have multiple classes for each car.
Simply put, LFS needs some cars that are less adjustable and easier to setup, to make it easier for people who are just starting out, to keep the fields even, and to stay true to what a road car is. Not to mention the fact that limiting setups could go a long way towards balancing the classes. I would certainly welcome a new group of cars though. Something between mostly stock road car and the all-out GTR cars that we have now. I would also support opening up all the cars to use slicks, as you mentioned. I think this would be good for everyone, even though you'd very seldom see the street tires used if that were to happen, IMO.
And we still need forced setups, or at least some way to have a "showroom stock" class race.
He's certainly not the only one to have noticed. I play on a very large screen (~55") and the car interiors look REALLY bad at that size. Luckily, there are some great texture updates for many of the cars, but the shift knob does look pretty bad. A few more polys and a decent texture could make a world of difference.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG