Quote from boosterfire :

What I think everybody agrees on is that the handbrake needs to be automatically on at the start of the race, because a lot of issues can compromise your control of the car.

This is precisely what we DO NOT agree on.

The handbrake does not need to be on at the start of the race. Drivers just need to press on the brakes, just as they would in real life.

Quote from Hyperactive :

I think it would be enough to get some kind of feedback from the driver to know he is still alive, a popup message is a bit too much and not all people have mouse easily available, especially if the time frame to react is short. Pushing the brake pedal or turning the steering wheel would do just fine

That would work too (I suggested the brake pedal earlier in the thread). It just seems like requiring a click is not too much. It would be similar to clicking "Join Race", after the track changes. I think a click is the same method that nKP uses as well, though I don't own it, so I'm not sure.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The trouble is that LFS doesn't have proper clutch/transmission simulation yet, and there is little damage from over-revving. So no matter how the handbrake is done, or how the brakes are held, it's still just a case of engaging first gear/dumping the clutch at high revs and wheelspinning off the line. The handbrake isn't the cause of this!

Agreed. The handbrake isn't the cause, but it's just one more little thing on the road to realism. Better to take care of it now so that users will be used to it by the time stalling is implemented.

Quote :

If wheelspin properly reduced acceleration (and it doesn't in LFS at the moment), and if over-revving was a bad thing (it isn't in LFS at the moment) then people would have to think a bit more carefully about starts. If stalling was implemented then that would mean the line between bogging down (also not well portrayed in LFS) and wheelspinning [both leading to bad starts] would be narrower and hence more fun/challenging.

Again, I'm in total agreement. Even if the auto handbrake is removed, starts still require very little skill. Baby steps.

Quote :

Ultimately I would like all controls to be manual - no auto-handbrake, no auto-clutch - and have driver aids balanced so that auto-clutching isn't a huge advantage...

Hallelujah!

Quote :

However, if the car is dumped on the grid at the start there NEEDS to be some way of stopping the car moving - a pop-up window is a horrid way of doing that in my opinion. But perhaps if formation laps were implemented then it will be up to the drivers to brake/handbrake on the grid to stop moving. Then it will be great.

Formation laps would be a nice addition. I think MoE is the only league that does any sort of formation lap right now. I'm curious though, why would you oppose clicking an "OK" button or a "Go to Grid" button? It seems like the perfect solution to me. That way you ensure that all drivers are actually ready to race before they go to the starting line. This would solve the problem of suddenly appearing on the grid and rolling, as well as solving the issue of people who have stepped away from their machines but still been placed on the grid.

Quote from Glenn67 :

And there lies the source of discusion you see LFS as needing to be as real as it can get, were I see it as a game that has realistic physics and requires skill to play but at the same is user friendly and provides a relaxed atmosphere to hang out with other petrol heads.

I think that the more realistic LFS is, the more I will enjoy it. I want to feel like I'm driving a car, not playing a game. LFS feels like that except for a few things which can ruin the immersion. I also love LFS because it makes joining a game or hosting a game so dead simple. Doing the same thing in GTR is a giant pain. The physics and excellent connectivity are what make LFS the sim that it is. Making it even more realistic can only improve the experience.

Quote :

LFS has a good balance of realism and gameplay I think and while it would be nice to have increased options and flexibility in realism and gameplay, I think it would be a mistake to go too far in one direction or another In reality you are limited in how realistic it can be by the available hardware and PC power present to date.

I agree that some concessions must be made because it's not possible to 100% recreate the act of driving a real car. However; I think that things like auto-clutch, auto-handbrake, etc. are going too far in the wrong direction. It's one thing to put something into a sim to compensate for what you lose by not being in the car (increased skid sounds, for instance), but to make the car control itself is the wrong way to go about it.

The bottom line is that auto-handbrake doesn't solve any problem that couldn't be solved in another, more realistic, more effective way.

Quote from VT-1 :

The reason it needs to be there is because unlike real life, we do not pull up to our starting position before each race. We teleport there, and if there were no Auto Hand Barke, we would all teleport on the starting grid of Blackwood, and anybody who did not put there foot on the brake, or hit the hand brake, would just roll down the hill.

We've already discussed a very simple method for addressing that issue.

Quote :

But again, on most tracks, the Auto hand brake is 100% meaningless, and to argue over something that does nothing on all but one track seems like a waste of time.

You're right. Auto-handbrake does nothing, and therefore, should be removed.

Quote :

People who want manualy release a handbrake, for added realism, have probably never been in a real race car. I have been to a handfull of tracks and have never sat at the startline with my handbrake on, EVER.

That's the whole point! In real life, race cars don't use the handbrake to prevent rolling on the start. So, it stands to reason that if we want a realistic sim we should not use the handbrake (especially a computer controlled, automagic one) either.

Quote :

So you would want to add something that would probably never happen (letting go oh the handbrake) on any of these tracks in real life, to add realism. Makes little to no sense.

Re-read the posts. We're not saying that the driver should have to let go of the handbrake. We're saying that the handbrake should never be engaged in the first place.

Quote from matze54564 :

Some players, like i have no pedals bought. Without pedals is it impossible to drive without auto-clutch.

It's still possible to drive without auto-clutch, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

If you're using auto-clutch and mouse, the auto-handbrake discussion is really a moot point because you can easily hold the brakes with one finger while flooring the gas with the other. All you need to do is release the brake finger while shifting into first. So, not having auto-handbrake really shouldn't be difficult at all for you. When dealing with three pedals, a shifter, and a handbrake, it's a different story.

Quote from haelje :

it very great. i think it's the basics needed but one big question anyway: is there a possibility to set values via protocols in lfs ? watching the values is only one side i think.

That is the important part. There are already some tools that will let someone watch the car, but being able to work as a pit boss and adjust what is done during pit stops is the big step. If my friend is watching with one of these tools he can tell me that I'll need new rear tires at the next stop, but it would be even better if he could use some sort of InSim command to make sure they got changed when I pit, without me having to mess with the F12 menu.

Quote from Glenn67 :

And on public servers with pick up races you often get restarts with some not yet expecting a restart. I.e. talking over their shoulder to the wife or some such thing and then you realise oh shit the race is starting. If you didn't have autohandbrake you would be rolling into someone So it makes sense to have the handbrake on when you are positioned at the grid.

Mikey_G's suggestion takes care of this, with the additional benefit of spectating people who have stepped away when the race unexpectedly starts.

Quote from MonkOnHotTinRoof :

Updated version for W9 patch. Now possible to enforce cockpit view thanks to new insim packet (unfortunately it comes by very rarely :shrug.

Awesome! I'll have to give this a try this weekend. I requested new InSim packets for shifter type and clutch type (button/axis/auto), so hopefully those will make it in for patch X. If they do, I think your tool, combined with those new packets, would be the solution to the "hardcore" mode so many of us have wanted.

Unfortunately, that means I'll have to get off my ass and finally organize a hardcore racing league.

Quote from mikey_G :

It's better to have a small pop-up box asking if your participating in the race, yes or no, and have the default answer be no (the box times out after 10 seconds to the default answer).

I think this is the perfect solution. Another option is that you are not joined to the grid unless you have your foot on the brakes. In either case, you prevent people from being put on the grid when they've gone AFK and you let them know "you're about to go to grid, don't let your car roll".

Quote :

But I've changed my mind, I'm actually in favor now of getting rid of all the automatic crap.

Welcome to my world.

The other thread in the main forum got closed while I was typing this, so I'll just post it here:

Quote from Scawen :

I cannot understand at all that kind of statement, said by different people, things like "the automatic handbrake is ruining the starts in LFS". But never has anyone said any reason how it ruins it or makes it pointless. And it's beyond me to understand that.

Because now you can false start, but you still can't have a "bad" start. All that's needed is to rev the car to redline and then drop it in first gear when the lights turn green. Because of the auto-handbrake, drivers don't have to worry about holding the car with the brake and have zero risk of rolling on the start. Before there was no skill involved in getting a good start - you would simply hold the gas to the floor. All that's changed now is that you are required to shift into first once the lights turn green.

Quote :

You know, some races start on flat ground. And no handbrake is required. So, if the release of a handbrake is such an important thing in racing, and the lack of need to manually release a handbrake in LFS makes race starts almost pointless, does that mean, nearly all motor races in the world are pointless and have a pointless start, because they are on flat ground?

This is beginning to wind me up now.

I'm not trying to wind you up. I think you misunderstand my position. Right now in LFS starts are all the same and there is really no skill involved other than putting the car into gear when the lights turn green. There's no chance of rolling on the start line, no chance of stalling, no real chance of overcooking the tires, no chance of damaging the transmission, etc. Having the ability to perform a false start is a good step in the right direction, but it just magnifies the other things that separate starts in LFS from starts in real life. I think the auto-handbrake is one of those things. The next small step towards realism would be to remove it.

Quote :

I can tell you what would ruin LFS for me - and that is, the need to press a button on my G25 every race start. That would be totally unrealistic, because handbrakes in cars are not buttons. I can't see any reason why anyone would say that it's a good idea, to replace one unrealistic thing (auto handbrake release) with another equally unrealistic and also very annoying thing (pressing a button on the G25 every race start). Maybe I'm missing something.

This is not what I'm suggesting at all. I think that the handbrake should not be engaged unless the user engages it (using a button, key, etc.). If the driver wants to use the handbrake on the start line, they can do so using a button on their controller or a key on the keyboard. I, personally, would probably not bother as it would be simpler to just heel/toe away from the start line. Some people have suggested that the handbrake should be turned on at the start of the race and that the driver needs to press a button to turn it off before they can leave the start line. I think this is the wrong approach. The handbrake should never be engaged unless I specifically engage it, just like the clutch should never engage unless I specifically engage it. When the car starts out on the grid it should be in neutral, no handbrake. From there it's a simple matter for users to learn that they need to have their foot on the brake when they join the grid to prevent rolling. It might be confusing at first, simply because it's different than it was in the past, but people will adjust very quickly because they know if they do not, it will cost them a drive-through.

Sorry. I didn't mean to turn this thread into the auto-handbrake thread. But, I do think this is an important point not only from a realism standpoint, but because the auto-handbrake removes a bit of skill from getting a good start.

I said this in the other thread and I'll say it again here:

I do not want auto-handbrake AT ALL. I don't want auto anything! I want to do the driving myself, not have the computer control it all for me. I don't want the handbrake engaged unless *I* engage it.

I think the "BL start line carnage" excuse is, frankly, a bunch of BS. It might happen when the change is first implemented, but people will quickly realize that they need to have their foot on the brake before they go to grid.

I really love LFS and think it's by far the best sim out there, but little things like the auto-clutch, auto-handbrake, almost non-existant damage, etc. really ruin the immersion of the sim. The sooner these things are removed, the better.

Quote from Linsen :

You know that's not true, Vykos. The test patch forum was certainly not closed because of the occasional "thank you"-post. It was closed because there were endless discussions and requests about handbrakes, handicaps, car-resetting and whatnot.

This is true, but I think it was inevitable that the discussion would turn to these things. I, myself, posted in the thread a few times about the handbrake issue. I think it's natural (and acceptable) to discuss things like this which are directly affected by the new patch. I realize that Scawen is basically looking for bugs, but when you implement a new feature like false starts, it really highlights other issues that affect the game.

Personally, I don't think false starts are really all that worthwhile as long as the auto-handbrake exists and as long as there's no damage to the engine/transmission from redline drops into first gear. While it might add a little noise to the thread to discuss such things, I believe it's important. If these things are not mentioned then there is a chance we'll be stuck with them for the duration of the next incompatible patch. If players mention these things and let Scawen know how important they are to us, there's a good chance he'll listen and address them before releasing a patch that we'll have to live with for months on end. And that is what really separates LFS from the rest: Scawen listens and implements not only the things that he thinks are important, but the things that his customers think is important.

Quote from shadow2kx :

We are here to talk about racing, not talking about how realistic should be the parking break.

The problem is that the handbrake directly affects the racing. We've now got jump starts and the handbrake is, frankly, ruining the realism and immersion of it, not to mention that it gives people using autoclutch one more advantage, on top of what they already had.

Let's not forget also that eventually LFS will have to remove the autoclutch and implement stalling. Once that happens, the handbrake will have to be removed anyway. Might as well do it now since it's having a negative effect on starts.

That's what I'm concerned about. I don't think the restrictions/ballast should be removed in the future, because they're very helpful for handicapping, if nothing else. I just think it's very likely that the community will figure out how to make the cars even, then we'll get another patch which gives the FXO narrower tires and puts us back to square one. Perhaps we need a patch with the new, skinnier tires on the FXO before we put too much effort into trying to balance the class?

I have one question in regards to the car balancing:

Scawen has stated that the FXO will likely get a bit heavier and have narrower tires in the next big patch. However; since everyone is doing their balancing testing using the current (larger) tires, will all of this balancing be for naught once the tires are changed? If we eventually determine that the TBO class is "balanced" pretty well by adding X number of pounds to the FXO, what will happen when the next patch comes out and the FXO suddenly has tires that are 10% narrower? Won't we have to start this balancing act all over again?

Quote from Ricou :

I have to say that I totally agree with Scawen here. To have to manually release handbrake would complicate things a bit, making LFS even more inaccessible to newbies.

It wouldn't be inaccessible at all. Drivers would simply have to use the brake on the starting line, just like drivers in real life have to.

Quote :

Where is the realism in releasing the handbrake with a button ?

Where's the realism of having an automatic handbrake? Where's the realism of dropping the car into first gear while at redline?

I personally feel that auto-handbrake needs to be turned off completely. If you don't want your car to roll on the start line, use your brakes. That's what they're for. If you really want to use the handbrake, you can easily map it to a button or key.

Quote from PeteRichardson :

I think a good idea for a small addon for the start would be a choice of how the lights came on (set in the options menu). So instead of the countdown, you could have:

All red > All Green
or
All red > Out

I think this is quite a good idea. Though, I don't think it really even needs to be an option. Just make this the default behavior:

1) All lights off (get ready to race)
2) All red lights on (race will start in 3-7 seconds)
3) Red lights off, green lights on (go!)

This will prevent people trying to anticipate the lights, and will also be quite obvious that the race is about to start (once the red lights turn on). I believe this is how most race series do it in real life.

Last edited by Cue-Ball, Mon 16 Apr 2007, 20:40.

Quote from tomylee :

I found a little bug. I was racing with XFR and with F12 it did say that I need 1% per lap. I did put in 6% and after doing 5 laps just after crossing the finish line I did have 0.3% fuel (but it still said that I need 1% per lap).

Personally, I think we need to be shown fuel in pounds or gallons, not percentages. And we should only be shown how much fuel is in the tank, not how much is being used per lap. That is up to the driver/team to determine. It should work like it does in real life:

Put in X lbs/gal of fuel.
Drive Y number of laps.
Pit and see how many lbs/gal of fuel are left.
Y laps / X lbs/gal of fuel = Z lbs/gal of fuel needed per lap.

Quote from Jimmy_Lemon :

im a huge nascar fan and this doesnt feel like it any more in the xrt.

So, you're saying that a 4 cylinder turbo, lightweight car, on street tires felt like a a NASCAR before!?

This sim is still in alpha. LOTS of things are going to get changed. Some cars may get faster, some may get slower. This is something you just have to deal with as the game is developed and the cars are balanced. And just remember that this is a test patch. The XRT may not have the same weight penalty by the time the next official patch is released. And if it does still have the weight, everyone else will have it too so it's an even playing field.

Quote :

oh and btw fxo used to have 47 second laps and now it couldnt even stay up within half a lap of xrt on a 4 lap race

What about on something other than the friggin' oval? The idea of balancing the cars is that one will be faster on some tracks and one will be faster on others.

Quote from Widdowmaker :

Not every server is full of hardcore racers in full on, full blow league racing, not every server is demo, or introduction racing. There are those Friday night servers where racing for fun - is ruined by being rolled and having to reset, cope with the damage struggle to the pit and go out and join your mates again.

In real life those drivers would not be limping back to the pits at all. Either their car would be towed off track, or they'd be taken to the hospital by helicopter. Right now you can wreck your car quite badly and still limp back to the pits. In the real world this is not an option. Not to mention the fact that many of the people nursing their cars back to the pits ruin others' races by going slowly down the track, often on the racing line. Frankly, I would rather see these people fix their car and get on with it rather than trying to drive 3/4 of a lap with two broken springs and the front tires turned opposite directions.

In addition to the new "no reset" option, we need increased suspension and engine damage. Once that is implemented, realism should take a drastic turn for the better.

If it's a beginner or pick-up race, resetting can be left turned on with the car being repaired. If it's a league or serious race resetting can be turned off and mid-race join can be turned off. We need better damage, but I think "can fix car" and "can't fix car" are enough options.

Quote :

With a server with 48 people, all they are going to do - is shift+S, go back to the pits and re join the race but however many laps down - real angry and then possibly wreck some one else race, when really if you want to go the whole realism thing - they should not be able to shift+S at all - and go straight to spectate.

If someone does a Shift+S and then tries to wreck other racers, they get banned. Nothing about that will change with this new option.

Quote :

Because there are 48 connections, racing - some people will sit waiting to join the race for ages - then to be flipped on to your roof by an inocous, nothing of a tap - then have to restart from the pit is abit lame - when its a friday night, out for some fun.

Firstly, there are 48 connections, but not 48 racers. Big difference. Secondly, what's the problem with having to restart from the pits? In the real world you wouldn't get to restart AT ALL. Getting to restart from the pits doesn't seem so bad. If it's not a serious race either leave resetting on or don't sweat starting back from the pits since you lose nothing by not coming in first.

Quote :

I also feel that if it is realism that we are aiming at - then why do we have multiple racing views? Why are we not locked to driving from in car only?

Check out the improvements section for some nice, long discussions about that very topic.

Steps to reproduce the problem:

Install LFS S2 W (full install)
Install patch W9
Open LFS
Press Alt+F4 to exit the game while the replay is playing.

The machine will hang at a light blue screen. Your only option is to end task on LFS. It looks like the game is expecting to go to the first time setup where you pick your driver, mph/kph, etc., and that it can't handle doing the Alt+F4 exit at that time. Hitting ESC, then clicking exit works fine. I haven't tested this without patch W9, but I'm sure that a clean install of W will reproduce the bug as well.

I didn't even bother watching the replays because you're using keyboard. If you really want to get good and experience something that feels like driving a real car, you need a wheel. It's as simple as that.

Quote from wsinda :

Anyone know where these glasses can be bought?

Google is your friend. There are a ton of places online that sell these glasses.

Quote from [RCG]Boosted :

not every driver can handle the default set, as everyone has a different driving style which the setup doesnt support.

That is such a bogus argument. If a person can't handle the RACE_S set, they should go play Need For Speed. If two guys take stock Porsche 911s out on the track and one guy wins, it's not because the stock setup "favored his driving style", it's because he is the better driver.