Yeah thanks, good result for me and Misko. Unlucky Jason had a timeout(?) though. My race was pretty uneventful while I tried to keep to around a second from Dom (Duhan), that is till a half spin on the final lap (doh!), but didn't lose any spots. Tomorrow should be very intense!
/me goes to follow the MoE precedings...
Anyone planning on doing the hosted and broadcast race this weekend at Silverstone in the Corvette?
http://www.simtrophy.com/news
Lots and lots of big names signed up, including a few LFS'ers like me, but plenty more spots open, and there will heats leading into splits on sunday so you'll be matched up with similarly skilled drivers.
It's the first major iRacing event, so join up people!
http://www.simtrophy.com/news
Lots and lots of big names signed up, including a few LFS'ers like me, but plenty more spots open, and there will heats leading into splits on sunday so you'll be matched up with similarly skilled drivers.
It's the first major iRacing event, so join up people!
Apparantly he was resting one of his balls on a tee while driving. 
Well you can race the Solstice any time, at either Laguna Seca or Lime Rock, the Skip Barber is at Lime Rock this week so you could race that, the Spec Racer is at Lowe's Road course so you could race that, and you could race the Mazda last week at Silverstone.
Very interesting to have your input as always Todd, thanks. Could I ask how KartSim is going?
Yep, I think that's pretty much got the nail on the head.
I don't think so, because I'm definately of the opinion that the tyre model in LFS is far from perfect. TBH it's almost the opposite extreme to iRacing compared to reality IMO. In LFS the fastest way to drive is to set the attitude of the car up into a ~10+ degree slide depending on what car you are in, and carry that throughout the corner. A lot of times it is also faster to get the car very sideways on entry, and the tyres will always give you as much grip as you need, when they should be struggling under excess load. I want to be punished for untidy / bad driving, the quickest way through a corner should be to get the tyres all working together as evenly as possible, but at the same time be able to rescue the car if things get out of shape, albeit with considerable laptime lost. I have a feeling *cough* that the new LFS tyres will be a major major step forward though.
Yeah you could be right about it solely being down to the tyres. I was listing to the opinion nation last night, and Dave Kaemmer was explaining about a new tyre model which was not so reliant on limited data which would only work well under non extreme conditions, but rather is completely new and able to give convincing results under many different extreme states for which tyres aren't normally tested. Sounded very much like the approach Scawen posted he was taking with the model he is working on now.
I keep saying inertia purely because that's how it feels. If it's hard to get wrong then I guess we must give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they've modelled that correctly.
I like the Lotus quite a lot actually, it's a little more controllable on the limit than the Mazda and IndyCar, but I didn't race it last season due to not having most of the tracks. The DP gets a lot of stick from everyone for being a dog to drive, but personally I don't mind giving it a thrash every now and then. I don't think it handles much like the real thing would though, you need to be sliding it about a lot to go fast, which is I think where a lot of complaints stem from.
I know you asked Tristan but IMO the Solstice is actually very believable and genuine to drive at the limit. The tyres react pretty much how I'd expect in RL. I do think all cars in iRacing have too little rotational inertia, but it's less noticable in the Solstice, and the Skippy, which I also like a lot.
The Mazda, Radical and Dallara IndyCar are horribly unpredictable and snappy on the limit of adhesion, as I've said all along, be it a tyre physics issue or a physical inertia issue (feels like a combination).
Edit: I actually have a theory as to why a lot of guys in iRacing use shitloads of throttle under braking.. I think it's because lift off oversteer when it happens is so violent and fast (low inertia?) that it's impossible to control unless you avoid it happening in the first place, i.e. with loads of throttle.
Edit 2: The Corvette is about as far as I'm gonna go ATM with the race cars in iRacing. It doesn't feel anywhere near weighty enough for a big GT car, but at least it's catchable on the limit if you pretend you're driving a 2 stroke Kart and react as quickly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmuGzGOPoKY&fmt=22
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But why don't the rest of the cars feel as convincing and driveable? Personally even the Legends feels much more responsive than I'd imagine the real counterpart would.
Good to know I'm not alone with my original opinion!
Of course it is difficult to make a accurate judgement on something with such little experience, but it sounds like we are in agreement, and of course your opinion is pretty valuable given the cars you've raced in real life, and more importantly, the understanding of what's possible in different sims. Be sure to post again if you have another go.If you have a G25 (I think you do), you set it to 900 degrees in profiler and 900 in iRacing (when calibrating turn it till it reads 900). iRacing will give you the right rotation for each car. I think the Mazda has 450 anyway. If you set the rotation in iRacing to less than 900 degrees you end up with speed sensitive steering to compensate (lol).
As for FFB, I use 103% in profiler for all games, 0 damper and spring. In iRacing I use 8 or 9 in the Mazda I think with high caster.
Whether or not it's realistic to be such, the default setups for most of the cars, especially the Mazda and Dallara have crazy understeer. I found I had to really soften the front up, lower pressures, lower ARB, soften springs etc to get it to turn in properly (which then makes it impossible to drive on the limit due to the snappiness I've been speaking about).
Edit: Yeah the sound of the Mazda is indeed horrible. It's missing the rawness and sounds very synthetic (an achievement for sampled sounds). Thankfully the other cars sound better, especially the new Corvette and Dallara.
Yeah I agree. I'd prefer a much more "solid" bumpstop which only worked over a smaller amount of suspension travel, say 1 or 2 cm, then it could be put to better use with lower rideheights.
Edit: 1 or 2 mm rather.
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At least the Dallara isn't as bad as the Mazda I guess. Here is a particularly violent snap I had in the Mazda at Mosport, during my first few laps around there. (It's just a 10 second cut)
I might give the Dallara another go sometime tonight, maybe some more setup work (increasing the bump stop gaps perhaps at the front to get rid of the understeer) and it'll start to work for me, despite *cough* the inertia issues I still believe the car has.
I might give the Dallara another go sometime tonight, maybe some more setup work (increasing the bump stop gaps perhaps at the front to get rid of the understeer) and it'll start to work for me, despite *cough* the inertia issues I still believe the car has.
Do you think you could post (zip I guess) a replay of you driving the Dallara with a particularly loose setup to demonstrate? I have had many "correct once = snap the other way at 1000 mph into a barrier" moments like in the Mazda. I'll post a quick replay of a particularly bad one at mosport when I get home (30 mins or so). No doubt I'll get told I'm overcorrecting etc.
Very nice lap Crommi, are you using Volkers setup? It's always front grip limited as can be seen in your lap, you never once have to correct for oversteer, it's on rails. GP4 anyone? /me runs
Looking forward to hearing what you think. You can test any car and track in "test" mode offline. To race them online like Gabkicks says you need a certain safety rating. As much as I despise the safety rating system myself you can get up to the rating you need to race the Mazda with others online quite quickly since you now get promoted to the next license instantly when you meet the requirements. You'll need to fulfill the MPR requirements (4 races I think in a rookie car) as well as driving without picking up incidents.
Well both the GTR class in LFS and the C6R in rFactor feel more weighty and generally seem like there is more rotational inertia compared to iRacing, and you have more time to react to what the car / tyres are doing. Of course rFactor feels pretty numb and the tyres aren't great either, but as we know it hasn't got the best physics engine in the world nor the best modders bar some. In LFS the tyres allow for driving past the peak slip angles without losing out on laptime too much, and sometimes in fact gaining time. I'm pretty sure though
that the new tyre model improvements on the horizon will feel much much better, and punish over aggressive driving more.Presumably iRacing doesn't full into the category of too high. LFS feels just about right regarding the general weight and feel (bar how the tyres feel). Interesting how simultaneous pitch and roll might differ, my understanding of physics starts to be stretched here...
Do it! It's a little cheaper now, and I'm getting fed up with the fanboys over there who keep telling me I'm wrong and it's all perfect etc. Make sure you try the Formula Mazda out or the Dallara IndyCar cos those are the ones which feel too snappy to me (once you get rid of the understeer).
Which might be how they've claimed to have done it, but they must've cocked up their calculations somewhere..
Just don't seem right at all to me. Thanks for pointing the article out though by the way.But in terms of moment of inertia of the 2 cars, I can't see them being too different. The Corvette is lighter, but at the same time it has a longer wheelbase. At the moment the Corvette in iRacing is more responsive in direction change than a Kart for me. Of course it's a terribly crude way to test the theory as like you say suspension plays a part etc. It would be interesting to know how values of rotational inertia are obtained for sims, because TBH I wouldn't be suprised if iRacing were making do with poorly education guesses ATM, and as I said it makes a huge difference in rFactor for example.
If you want to test this for yourself I'll explain. Basically take any iRacing car, say the Mazda, to the skid pad as it loads quickly and is completely flat. Then bring the car to 100 mph or so, and start weaving from side to side (drive lengths across the diameter of the skid pad not around it) until you find the cars natural "weaving" frequency. You should feel the weight of the car moving with you. In the Mazda you'll find this is at a very very high rate, the car changes direction extremely fast.
Now try in the Skippy. You should find that the natural side to side motion the car naturally falls in is much slower. Why is that? Does the Skippy have significantly higher rotational inertia IRL than the Mazda? I doubt it, but there is no doubt that in iRacing the Mazda has extremely little. Try the Corvette out as well, a pretty hefty GT car with a huge V8 out at the front. Surely this means it would have a high moment of inertia? Obviously not in iRacing, as it changes direction almost on par with the Mazda. The Solstice on the other hand, a smaller car, smaller engine, yet this has a calm whale like weaving action in comparison. Compare with other sims if you want.
Now try in the Skippy. You should find that the natural side to side motion the car naturally falls in is much slower. Why is that? Does the Skippy have significantly higher rotational inertia IRL than the Mazda? I doubt it, but there is no doubt that in iRacing the Mazda has extremely little. Try the Corvette out as well, a pretty hefty GT car with a huge V8 out at the front. Surely this means it would have a high moment of inertia? Obviously not in iRacing, as it changes direction almost on par with the Mazda. The Solstice on the other hand, a smaller car, smaller engine, yet this has a calm whale like weaving action in comparison. Compare with other sims if you want.
I don't have to be Will Power to be able to tell you an opinion of whether or not a virtual car that I've never driven IRL is realistic or not. More often than not the "feedback" from real drivers regarding how realistic a sim car is is often not very accurate at all. Most real drivers are often not experienced enough with sims to know the subtle differences between ones which are currently available, as they don't have the time I guess to really sit down and get fully connected with the difference in feel at a basic level, and really get close to the limit. Regardless of how realistic a sim is, your brain will not be relying on the same feedback you get in RL in the sim. Obviously there are exceptions, say Dale Jr, who has got to the level where he is just as capable in a sim as in real life, but obviously he has a reason to be careful of what opinions he has of how the cars drive. Most real racers try a sim and as long as the feel is vaguely correct, the sound is accurate, the graphics are good and it will go round the track, it's therefore brilliant and as accurate as could be on a PC.
To me, given my experience trying various different sims and noticing the subtle differences each one has, comparing that to my limited real life experience, as well as studying many many onboard videos of various forms of racing, I think my opinion is just as valid as Will Powers.
P.S. I did some testing in rFactor which is obviously moddable. In the hdv files where all the physics data is stored, there are 3 values for rotational inertia, presumably each one assigned to a rotation axis (pitch, yaw and roll). These are independant (I think) from the overal vehicle mass, which only affects non-angular acceleration of the car. I tried reducing the values, which would indicate most of the mass of the car is very near the center of mass, and understandably the car became very very responsive to changes in direction. When pushing near to the limit, the car was very very tricky to balance as you had very little time to react. Sounds like iRacing to me. Likewise when I tried larger values, which would simulate the mass of the car being spread out away from the center of mass, the car was less responsive, but much much more controllable and less snappy. I'd like to know how realistic values of rotational inertia from real cars are obtained? Because I'm getting more and more convinced iRacing has this way off currently...
Thought this might be of some interest: http://www.formula1.com/result ... 23/6699/fastest_laps.html
Just 1 second seperating the top 18 fastest laps of the race. F1 has become so competitive.
Just 1 second seperating the top 18 fastest laps of the race. F1 has become so competitive.
And now I do. Having driven a couple more hours in the thing around Barber, my opinion has changed. It's a complete and utter unrealistic piece of shit to drive anywhere near the limit. No really, I can't stand it anymore.
The server that I was racing on pretty much confirmed my thoughts for this car, and many others (Mazda, Corvette, to name some). The server was spin central. I span many many times myself. Since when does a car result in an instant spin the minute you have some oversteer? OK maybe you can save it 20% of the time, but normally it feels like luck alone. I'm in disbelief at the number of people who think it's realistic to have an unsavable spin so easily so often.
I really am starting to doubt how much "real world" data iRacing have available to them. Recently they reduced the engine braking effect in a few cars considerably. If they had lots of data available why would they get something so vital completely wrong first time round? I wouldn't be suprised if quite a lot of physical information is just made up TBH. One thing in particular though which stands out for me ATM is that everything in iRacing seems to have far too little inertia. Now I could be talking complete bollocks here, but I'll carry on anyway. To start with the engines rev from idle to redline in neutral extremely quickly, take the Jetta for example, a lazy diesel engine which probably has a fairly hefty flywheel. Then there is the general feel to some of the slick tyre shod cars, such as the Mazda and the Dallara. It's as if they have very very low reluctancy to suddenly switch direction, especially in rotation. To me it seems the moment of inertia for the cars are far too low. Would this explain the apparant snappiness in a lot of the cars? Maybe if the cars had higher moment of inertia in the yaw direction they wouldn't swap ends so violently and quickly? Do physics engines even have specified inertia values or are they calculated based on the spread of mass etc throughout the vehicle?
In the meantime I'm sticking to the Skippy since that's currently the most exciting car in the sim which feels even remotely realistic to me.
If you want to find a reason for the majority of the race being boring it's surely down to Hamilton having to retire. I was looking forward to watching him trying to keep the Red Bulls behind him. The circuit ain't much of a drivers track, but it's certainly not a bad circuit in terms of overtaking / racing opportunities. TBH I agree with Blueflame on this one, a race doesn't need a million overtaking manouvers to be interesting for ****s sake.
Of course I don't know, but I can be pretty sure. We've had many threads on these forums with Todd Wasson's expertise, who has clearly explained how LFS is pretty close to real tyres regarding slip angles and lateral force and such. I'm well aware things can be improved, but at the moment it feels to me like iRacing is at one side of the realism line, while LFS is an equal amount the other side, which makes it difficult if you want to race on both sims equally.
Thats the thing. I find I have to stick in crazy values in order to get rid of the natural understeer most of the cars display. I'm looking forward to seeing what the community can come up with setupwise.
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