My question is why would anyone in thier Left mind race or do a track day with tires that are prone to excessive sidewall flex.
The cars in LFS may have accurate sidewall flex but they are the wrong dam tires for the application they are being used for.
The cars in LFS may have accurate sidewall flex but they are the wrong dam tires for the application they are being used for.
I honestly feel the racing surface is far too wide in LFS for the most part. South City has that tight fast feel the rest of the circutes do not.
Hyperactive, when did this turn in to a HardCore mode comversation? I am all for leaving in the options that help make up for the interface issues faced by people who do not have the luzury of a G25. I don't have a G25. Think like auto clutch, auto cut/blip, automatic trans, traction control and anti-lock brakes need to be there for people using less then optimal control interfaces.
Thinks like damage, tire wear, fuel usage, etc. having the option to be disabled does not increase the accessability to anyone. The just turn this Sim in to an arcade game with compromised physics/reality. I am all for the options but some just do not have a place here I think. If there is a hardcore mode down the road I am sure the people that have the hardware to race underthose restrictions will do so, the rest of us will still have the option to race on other servers. I would like to see the systems more polished though before I am forced to use then. The simulation of transmission and clutches still needs a lot of work. nKPro has the best trans/clutch simulation I have used.
Thinks like damage, tire wear, fuel usage, etc. having the option to be disabled does not increase the accessability to anyone. The just turn this Sim in to an arcade game with compromised physics/reality. I am all for the options but some just do not have a place here I think. If there is a hardcore mode down the road I am sure the people that have the hardware to race underthose restrictions will do so, the rest of us will still have the option to race on other servers. I would like to see the systems more polished though before I am forced to use then. The simulation of transmission and clutches still needs a lot of work. nKPro has the best trans/clutch simulation I have used.
I used the term "Never" because the Devs have stated in the past that the ability to disable Damage, Tire Wear, Fuel Use and other similar features would "Never" be included in LFS. They have no plans to include the option and its thrie decision.
I have heard both arguments time and time again and I will be the first to admit that I learn far faster when forced to drive without diving assists and reality limiting features. Back with F1 2k2 my friends and I were all running about the same skill level, I was a little slower though and not as proficent. So I made the choice to disable all the driving aids and in a matter of two weeks I was out driving then every race.
You may think that driving aids and the ability to disable damage, etc. will alows new members of the comunity to ease in to LFS but the hard cold fact is you learn far faster with all the reality in place.
I have heard both arguments time and time again and I will be the first to admit that I learn far faster when forced to drive without diving assists and reality limiting features. Back with F1 2k2 my friends and I were all running about the same skill level, I was a little slower though and not as proficent. So I made the choice to disable all the driving aids and in a matter of two weeks I was out driving then every race.
You may think that driving aids and the ability to disable damage, etc. will alows new members of the comunity to ease in to LFS but the hard cold fact is you learn far faster with all the reality in place.
In a racing car, the gage cluster is designed to include all the needed gages to monitor the condition of the engine. There are better places to put gages then on the I-Piller. Clustering them in the center console makes more sense anyways as I have no need for the clock or radio there.
I hate to say it but you resorted to wrecking as a retalitory action. If you get banned it woudl be justifiable. Just like in the real world if some one comits a crime and goes free but you retaliate and break the law you can be punished for it.
Its better to just in a simple non confrontational manner express your case and then drop it. If you have to resort to some sort of retalitory messure then do so with in the limits of what is legal in racing. Accidents happen, oops.
A little nerf here alittle tap there it does not have to look like it was intential to be effective.The damage system is a place holder feature. Suspension damage was included in S2 to help limit wall riding in South City. The devs felt that having the suspension become damaged without some visual body damage was just not working so they put the start of the damage model in place. The current system was never intended to be a final feature. As S2 is about the cars I imagin that before S2 is considered Final we will see a more fully realised damage model along with other improvements to the cars them selves and the physics surounding them.
Being able to turn off the damage will never happen, just as turnin goff fuel use and tire wear will never happen. Simulator = Simulation of Reality, you can't turn off damage in the real world. Some consessions are sill made though as in the restarts, reset, you don't die in a crash etc...
Being able to turn off the damage will never happen, just as turnin goff fuel use and tire wear will never happen. Simulator = Simulation of Reality, you can't turn off damage in the real world. Some consessions are sill made though as in the restarts, reset, you don't die in a crash etc...
LFS is developed in a building block fashion. Untill there is night there is no need for lights.
No maggot thats not what I want.
Take for example South City in its entirerty as one open envirnment, access to all the roads and having the course defigned through the layout editor.
Now do the same for all the areas, Fern Bay, Aston, Kyoyo Ring, Blackwood, and any future track venue.
Take for example South City in its entirerty as one open envirnment, access to all the roads and having the course defigned through the layout editor.
Now do the same for all the areas, Fern Bay, Aston, Kyoyo Ring, Blackwood, and any future track venue.
Thats part of the idea, You choose a venue and the configuration is then a suprise. Ofcourse it could be built in such a way as to display the name of the config currently loaded. Predefigned configs created by the dev team and supported by LFSworld would be easy to spot this way and custom configs you would have to learn.
I imagine with a system like this we would see a wider variaty of tracks and some of the pressure would be off the developers to cater to our every whim in course design as we could define our own within the bounds of the venues design limitations.
I imagine with a system like this we would see a wider variaty of tracks and some of the pressure would be off the developers to cater to our every whim in course design as we could define our own within the bounds of the venues design limitations.
No it was not directed at you. I was mearly pointing out the reasons and likely hood. I think its long overdue for a racing sim thats steaped in real physics to take this kind of approach but until the engine is completely rewritten to allow for it it will not happen.
I posted my ideas on how it could work in another thread here in this section but with the current LFS render its not possible to do and retain all the current functionality.
I posted my ideas on how it could work in another thread here in this section but with the current LFS render its not possible to do and retain all the current functionality.
Its am rendering engine limitation for the most part. Getting the AI to follow the track woud lbe as easy as drawing a virtual path in the editor, but since LFS is an Online Racing Sim why do we even need the AI anymore.
Todays computers are more then capable of rendering an entire city at once many times larger then the one that encompases the South City venue. But it woudl not even need to if a moden rendering soluton was used. Some of todays FPS have huge envirnents that are not a problem at all to render for the 64+ players in then at a time.
Its not somthing that will change for S2, It may not make it in to S3. It may have to wait for what ever follows LFS, perhpas LFS2.
Todays computers are more then capable of rendering an entire city at once many times larger then the one that encompases the South City venue. But it woudl not even need to if a moden rendering soluton was used. Some of todays FPS have huge envirnents that are not a problem at all to render for the 64+ players in then at a time.
Its not somthing that will change for S2, It may not make it in to S3. It may have to wait for what ever follows LFS, perhpas LFS2.
Racing Venue vs. Predefined Tracks
Right now in LFS we have a variety of track configurations depicted in several different locations. Every track configuration is a unique entity that shares many common textures and geometry with the other configurations in the same location and to a lesser extent the other locations. This has its limitations and is I think not the most elegant or flexible means of implementing multiple track configuration in a single environment.
Some of the community has expressed the desire to have open venues or track areas where they can just drive or for some of the unique “Games” the community has come up with which can be facilitated through community cooperation and some creative in-sim programming. Cops n Robbers is one of the more entertaining of these community creations.
The current system makes it easy to track things like track cutting, and other checks to provide the foundation for implementing flag rules and other mechanics which will likely be added down the road. It also makes it easy to track Hotlap and World Record data but there are many different ways to do this now. The upgrades to the Autocross tools have opened some new interesting options. With the addition of no-pass checks we can define areas that are off-limit to drives which was the last real limiting factor aside from the rendering engines limits in texture and geometry bandwidth.
I would purpose that for S3 LFS should makes a somewhat radical change to the way race venues and track configurations are defined. I think this is needed for several reasons. First the change would allow for more flexibility in engine allowing for more unique play styles. Secondly it could limit could reduce the number of track objects/maps that the simulation needs to have. Thirdly it will provide a single mechanism or solution that allows for all types of racing formats to be defined without having to code each one separately. And lastly it will set LFS apart by being the first real simulation to allow such flexibility in just a solid and simple interface.
The Idea:
The current tracks get replaced with Racing Venues. Each venue is a unique environment which contains all the geometry and textures. The area is also coded to define the areas such as racing surface, pits, starting grid locations. In this state it is much like an autocross area of the current version of LFS, just an open environment with no track or course defined. To use the venue for racing, the server admin need to either load a static predefined layout, (basically a standard layout like autocross) or build a new layout either from scratch or modified from an existing one.
Only predefined layouts from the Dev team will be supported on LFSworld for Hotlap and WR tracking. All tracks must have 3 sector gates and either a combined start/finish ling for circuit racing or a separate start and finish line for point to point racing such as single lap autocross or rally. Some additional tools will need to be added to the editor to allow for defining the pits but that should not be too difficult. We already have tools to define no cross lines but the addition of a tool to define no drive areas would be nice.
I do not see the problems with a system like this. Most of the tools and mechanics are already in the LFS Autocross editor. It would add more uniqueness versatility to LFS while preserving the current flavor and style that defines what LFS has evolved to become currently.
Some of the community has expressed the desire to have open venues or track areas where they can just drive or for some of the unique “Games” the community has come up with which can be facilitated through community cooperation and some creative in-sim programming. Cops n Robbers is one of the more entertaining of these community creations.
The current system makes it easy to track things like track cutting, and other checks to provide the foundation for implementing flag rules and other mechanics which will likely be added down the road. It also makes it easy to track Hotlap and World Record data but there are many different ways to do this now. The upgrades to the Autocross tools have opened some new interesting options. With the addition of no-pass checks we can define areas that are off-limit to drives which was the last real limiting factor aside from the rendering engines limits in texture and geometry bandwidth.
I would purpose that for S3 LFS should makes a somewhat radical change to the way race venues and track configurations are defined. I think this is needed for several reasons. First the change would allow for more flexibility in engine allowing for more unique play styles. Secondly it could limit could reduce the number of track objects/maps that the simulation needs to have. Thirdly it will provide a single mechanism or solution that allows for all types of racing formats to be defined without having to code each one separately. And lastly it will set LFS apart by being the first real simulation to allow such flexibility in just a solid and simple interface.
The Idea:
The current tracks get replaced with Racing Venues. Each venue is a unique environment which contains all the geometry and textures. The area is also coded to define the areas such as racing surface, pits, starting grid locations. In this state it is much like an autocross area of the current version of LFS, just an open environment with no track or course defined. To use the venue for racing, the server admin need to either load a static predefined layout, (basically a standard layout like autocross) or build a new layout either from scratch or modified from an existing one.
Only predefined layouts from the Dev team will be supported on LFSworld for Hotlap and WR tracking. All tracks must have 3 sector gates and either a combined start/finish ling for circuit racing or a separate start and finish line for point to point racing such as single lap autocross or rally. Some additional tools will need to be added to the editor to allow for defining the pits but that should not be too difficult. We already have tools to define no cross lines but the addition of a tool to define no drive areas would be nice.
I do not see the problems with a system like this. Most of the tools and mechanics are already in the LFS Autocross editor. It would add more uniqueness versatility to LFS while preserving the current flavor and style that defines what LFS has evolved to become currently.
I have two counters for the reasons why people think it can not be done.
1- AS Historic is a dam large track and area, easily the size of the area used by the whole of the South City complex.
2- We can build tracks and hold multi-lap races in the suto cross areas using the editor so there is no reason why a predefigned track is a requirment for the game engine.
Now I see no reason why all for the track areas can't just be open racing venues. The tracks host could then define the layout of the course just like a circuit layed out on the autocross areas. The only draw back is we loose the ability to record Hotlaps and WRs. The way around this is to have predefigned layouts that can be selected but not altered and just track Hotlap and WR stats for those configs only. All other configs are WR and Hotlap invalid.
The only limitation there might be right now is poly count. If the engines limited in its avalable mempry useage for texture and geometry then somthing like this may need to wait for S3 and the rendering engien overhaul.
1- AS Historic is a dam large track and area, easily the size of the area used by the whole of the South City complex.
2- We can build tracks and hold multi-lap races in the suto cross areas using the editor so there is no reason why a predefigned track is a requirment for the game engine.
Now I see no reason why all for the track areas can't just be open racing venues. The tracks host could then define the layout of the course just like a circuit layed out on the autocross areas. The only draw back is we loose the ability to record Hotlaps and WRs. The way around this is to have predefigned layouts that can be selected but not altered and just track Hotlap and WR stats for those configs only. All other configs are WR and Hotlap invalid.
The only limitation there might be right now is poly count. If the engines limited in its avalable mempry useage for texture and geometry then somthing like this may need to wait for S3 and the rendering engien overhaul.
I had a dream last night as well but its content is not really suitable for this public forum.
In time perhaps we will have some real racing venues, either comunity or official matters not to me so long as they are highly accurate and detailed.
In time perhaps we will have some real racing venues, either comunity or official matters not to me so long as they are highly accurate and detailed.
My definition of speed drifting is this:
Using all of the avalable slip angle the tires are designed to use. Tires are desiged to slip alittle and doing so is not going to slow you down. Even in modern F1 people like Schumi drive and steer as much with the rear tires as they do the front. If the tires are squeeling you are past the point of useable slip angle.
I am faster using that technique then grip only. It does not wear the tires out either and means I am using a slight about of counter steering through the corners. Steer with both ends, Schumi does.
Using all of the avalable slip angle the tires are designed to use. Tires are desiged to slip alittle and doing so is not going to slow you down. Even in modern F1 people like Schumi drive and steer as much with the rear tires as they do the front. If the tires are squeeling you are past the point of useable slip angle.
I am faster using that technique then grip only. It does not wear the tires out either and means I am using a slight about of counter steering through the corners. Steer with both ends, Schumi does.
Who wants to run at the front? Its boring being up there hotlapping. Its so much more fun being in the middle or back running side by side through the corners and swapping positions. But more often then not if I get a few clean races in I will be nipping at the heals of the lead pack.
Its not a huge jump to go from midpack to front runner. The increasses in speed come through being smooth and consistant. When you are midfield or backfield its a great time to experiment with lines, corner stratigies, close racing and application of pressure. You will often find that the really fast driver but by no means all of them, are only fast when they can drive their perfect hotlap line. Force them use somthing different and they crack and make mistakes under the pressure.
Its not a huge jump to go from midpack to front runner. The increasses in speed come through being smooth and consistant. When you are midfield or backfield its a great time to experiment with lines, corner stratigies, close racing and application of pressure. You will often find that the really fast driver but by no means all of them, are only fast when they can drive their perfect hotlap line. Force them use somthing different and they crack and make mistakes under the pressure.
We still don't have a RWD non-downforce race car yet either. XFR/UFR/? Missing Car
lol oh so true... I remember then time back long ago when wreckers were everywere. People use to bitch and moan about them, but at the time i found it a fun game just avoid then and continue my race as if they were just a moving chicane. Realy pissed them off and gave me some great practice as defensive driving.
One thing I do to train myself and others is once I am the victom of an incident I will usealy catch back up to the slower drivers and practice close racing with them. i know I can out brake them and have more control so I can race closer and learn to anticipate their moves which is good for training the reflexes. It also has the benifit of showing the slower/newer driver some close hard and fun racing, lets them experance some pressure and most often they thank you for the great race afterwords.
One thing I do to train myself and others is once I am the victom of an incident I will usealy catch back up to the slower drivers and practice close racing with them. i know I can out brake them and have more control so I can race closer and learn to anticipate their moves which is good for training the reflexes. It also has the benifit of showing the slower/newer driver some close hard and fun racing, lets them experance some pressure and most often they thank you for the great race afterwords.
In my case it was the retention ring on the left out drive in the front diff. It snapped, the outdrive sliped out the side and I was once again a RWD truck in the ice and snow on my way to go snowboarding. There is a Diff there for a reason, there is no point to lock it. Though an adjustable torque sencing diff with veriable split would be nice instead of the viscus.
The reason AWD cars like the FXR and RB4 have a center diff is to prevent Drive Line and Diff damage when the say you transision from a slippery surface to a grippy surface and the wheels are spinning. For instance when moving from the dirt to the tarmak in Rally-X. With a locked diff or in a car with out a center diff there is a good chance you will destroy the front diff or break the front drive line as the spinning tires regain grip. The center diff allow the front tires to rapidly slow down while allowing excess power to redirect to the rear wheels.
I can verify type of damage that not having a center diff and surface transision can do, please don't ask me how I know.
I can verify type of damage that not having a center diff and surface transision can do, please don't ask me how I know.
Shoot me a PM, if it ever gets that far I will let you know what sort of diagrams I am looking for. Right now I am just working on basic mindset stuff as a base for more detailed techniques.
This is one of the reasons I love the gearbox in on my bike. Going up through the gears I just use a little pressure in the clutch as I pop through the rears with manual throttle cutting. Coming down I just use the clutch becase having the front brake (75%-100% of the braking force) on the same hand as the throttle makes rev matchng on down shift a little diffacult for me.
I am working on somthing but it will take some tiem to make sure I get the facts right. In the mean time if you have any specific questions post em and we can try to answer then as best we can.
Oh and for the record alot of experanced faster racers also lack the skills and mindset to leave enough room for differing driving styles. I would say that braking zone incidents are just as likely to be caused by a new driver missing their braking point as they are by a fast driver unable to alter their perfict hotlap line and speeds. The cause is multifacited and stems from many of us growing up on less sim like games and there not being any tangible consiquence for screwing up.
Oh and for the record alot of experanced faster racers also lack the skills and mindset to leave enough room for differing driving styles. I would say that braking zone incidents are just as likely to be caused by a new driver missing their braking point as they are by a fast driver unable to alter their perfict hotlap line and speeds. The cause is multifacited and stems from many of us growing up on less sim like games and there not being any tangible consiquence for screwing up.
Last edited by Gimpster, .
This is because of there being no or ineffecient energy absorbsion in the physics model as of yet. So all the force is reflected back. You also get some object overlap some times which magnifies the reflected energy.
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