Quote from Woz :

The lock USED to be 45degrees for all cars years back but the dev team lowered it to REALISTIC levels for the cars. Drifters fit AFTER MARKET parts to extend the locks. These have not been fitted to the cars.

Read what he said:

Quote from Nikn :

show me a production car that comes with 4 different types of LSD, fully adjustable suspension and nearly infinitely many gear ratios.

Quote from Woz :

Drifters still voted NO in the poll saying "we don't need a drift car, just raise the locks".

Well.. You might have as well written "everyone". Many, many people were up for a new car. Current cars are shit cars the way they are. LFS has no proper high powered RWD car that is light and has good weight distribution. The only reason I use Fz5 to drift is because it's best compromise beetwen power and cornering ability. But show pictures to drifters from real life that have no idea about lfs and first thought they have is that it must not be realistic. A game where cars that are drifted are Porsches and Caterhams - brillant.

Quote from Woz :

Changing the max lock DOES effect racers. It allows people to run lock far far higher that would be possible and hence catch slides they should not be able to catch. This has a NEGATIVE effect on races as people who should have crashed out can catch and recover.

As I have stated "million" times, if a racer complains that he would need more steering lock than 36 degree to catch slides in street cars(as it ONLY CONCERNS STREET CARS).. Well. Sorry to hear that, but this racer must be slow fish at the back of the field. If you have to catch slides with any lock that needs a lot of countersteering it means you are slow! You must realise that a racer has to be as smooth as possible to be fast. If you are one that is racing in the back field of races everytime, then I also understand that this might concern you - when racers with 45 degree somehow manage to save spin(and are slow), while you spin with 36 degrees of lock.. This must be frustrating ? Don't feel offended, I am being sartastic here when talking precisely as "you" in part of saving spins.

Honestly, This is same as if I complained that a mouse user can turn to max lock in 0.2-0.3 second, while I can't because I'm using G25.

Therfor my point is - it would only affect racers that are slow and are in the back of the field. Once they learn to drive they won't even steer to the max lock to save spins when racing.

I won't even mention the fact how easy steering lock mod is(in real life) compared to many currently avaible mods in lfs.

But well, who cares. LFS gets even a "cruise" servers filter, as receiving official support for cruise servers, but won't even get a support for real motorsport, that is drifting.

edit:

Quote from Woz :

But currently the huge selection settings are a hangup to pre S1 days when they helped getting the physics right. The huge range of settings are no longer required for the slower cars and hopefully will be limited at some point.

There is a difference beetwen Sim getting too strict and allowing people to do things that would be extremely expensive in real life IMO. It won't do any good to LFS if it gets too strict. I always loved LFS for the fact how open sim it was, how it allowed things that are possibile in real life without limiting players - that is the power of LFS to me. The power that comes from its physics engine.

Last edited by kamkorPL, Thu 21 Feb 2008, 02:47.

Quote from K. Tsuchiya :

I but, if you ever get a chance to talk to a professional racer, that also drifts, you may get the reason for drifting that your looking for.

In IDC Yokohama Drift Fest in november at Hockenheim while I was recording on camera a talk beetwen Tomasz Kozlowski and proffesional racer from NL - Remmo Niezen, Remmo Niezen said that he tried it once and became a drift addict instantly.

Also check out Team Falken drivers, Tim Coronel, Tom Coronel Sr. and all 4 drivers page: Here

Yeah, wings on their cars are insanely huge, they are so big you could literally take a nap on them

I'm actually suprised that some of us try to convince people, who don't like drifting to like it, while their opinion is based on purely on lfsforum posts, movies or other things(like sthereotypes) that have not much to do with real life. Maybe it's better to not convince that crowd, will be better if they never experience drifting first hand and stay in their closed-minded world.

March Hare: I am speechless now that you said what your dislike is based on. I am very speechless. Your whole idea of disliking drifters is often based on immature kids responses on lfsforum and is purely based on internet. I'm sorry to say it and don't feel offended, but this is just ridicilous.

Last edited by kamkorPL, Tue 19 Feb 2008, 14:05.

Quote from March Hare :

A few bad apples ruining the fun for the rest. But in the case of drifting it's a whole bunch on mindless dorks who ruin it for the few.
Only a few top drifters and millions of teenage dorks doing handbrake turns and power sliding.

I guess in Finland at nights and days you see tons of mindless dorks handbraking around the corners on streets. That sucks for you man, really. Though here in Poland thank God I don't see it. In fact most drifters go to local legal trainings organised on closed circuits/airports etc. And 90-95% of drivers during events are great/awesome guys. They help each other. They even lend each others cars if one can't compete, because of a mechanical failure. Not to mention lending tires, helping in general etc. It really is a great atmosphere. There are also drivers in poland that came to drifting from rallies/racing and they are doing awesome drifting.

In International Drift Challenge the drivers are awesome and very mature guys(Often old, who are former racers or racing instructors at school, or just plain drivers who try to compete at motorsports. Such a variety of drivers, that's what makes drifting awesome. You don't have to be proffesional to get into it - ofcourse there are licenses like Pro etc. but that's another subject.

Some random pictures of drivers from driftingo.eu site:

http://www.driftingo.eu/__temp ... 3f165805616_800_600_w.jpg
http://www.driftingo.eu/__temp ... 0cf055df6d6_800_600_w.jpg
http://www.driftingo.eu/__temp ... 4f8e80b11bb_800_600_w.jpg
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http://www.driftingo.eu/__temp ... fe0341e68fd_800_600_w.jpg
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http://driftingo.pl/__temp__/3 ... fd7f2f289f5_800_600_w.jpg

I think the problem is that people with no knowledge of drifting see someone burning tires or doing a donut and assume that this is "a drifter". But that's not how it is. If you know a bit about drifting and ever been to real event you will easily see a difference beetwen a drifter, and a lame driver.

People seem to see a lame driver and right from the beginning assume it's a drifter.

But tell me March Hare, what is your experience with drifting in real life. Where have you seen drifting so far? Because I just can't imagine this bunch(millions) of mindless dorks, who ruin it for few. It sounds like you saw 90% dorks and 10% drifters. I really can't understand this.
Those arguments that talk about most of drifters being idiots, ruining it for few just seems to me like imagined arguements that are based on 1) imagination, 2) youtube videos, 3) what most lfsforum members say.
I was on many drifting events from summer till fall/winter in different countries like Poland, Hungary, Germany and never saw things being like people who believe in sthereotypes to be.

Please tell me what exactly(facts) your opinion is based on.

Last edited by kamkorPL, Mon 18 Feb 2008, 14:29.

And I'm not talking about average drifting in lfs. If you have the skill to do it, you should be able to control it easily in a twin drift or train drift. Based on what people say here, it should take max 5 minutes to master it.

Fact is, if you take it down to "nor something you find from average lfs drift server" then the thing is pretty obvious. Anyone can race slow after practice, just like anyone can drift averagely after practice. Don't compare the skill that it takes to race fast to the skill it takes to drift averagely. Compare it to the skill that you need to drift perfect in any situation.

nisskid: To me it is pretty simple. Every of those who criticize drift and say how easy it is should just post a replay of them doing a very close twin drift with someone on a long track or at least some very good replay. Otherwise what they say is absolutelly worthless.

Mini report from Polish LFS Drift Practice supported by Driftingo

Quote from Ikaponthus :

Afterall, I drift by accident in LFS and when I muck around testing the physics and just having fun going sideways around the corners is not very difficult at all.

It's same as if anyone said. "I can just regain traction corners and race, not very difficult at all" I will repeat myself from my earlier post.

Quote from kamkorPL :

About the difficulty. I think mastering racing and drifting is both extremely difficult. Mastering racing is going with perfect lines(according to the situation in a race), getting perfect splits, getting perfect laptimes etc. Now while drifting imagine doing a perfect lap each time with maximum possible angles, best lines(super close to the walls etc) and best possible speeds with those lines and angles. In fact, I believe that mastering any kind of motorsport that involves driver a lot is super hard.

Now also imagine doing it perfect on "WR" level in tsuiso, and then with 3 cars train, and then with 4 cars train. There is a difference beetwen "drifting" and "DRIFTING", just like there is a difference beetwen "racing" and truely "RACING".

Hovewer if you believe you can do that easily, then you are more than welcome to dominate drifting competitions with 1st places(when some high-level league or championship starts).

Quote from Ikaponthus :

What's the difference?

"Some people, for whatever reason, want to ruin tyres while driving sideways very slowly".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNPD9nEPfZo ---> Yay. "Drifting" is really only one very small step up from this IMO. Same ballpark anyway.

^Demo racer, registered in feb 2008. Simply the guy could be just a flamer. Based on what he says I can't think about it in any other way.

I just hope you will never try going sideways in a car, because this could involve a serious accident if you believe it's a very small step from doing burnouts.

I will give you hovewer a hint for understanding the difference more(IF xaotik answer wasn't enough). Do you know what a weight shift control is?

edit: Ofcourse drifting looks easy as hell if you just watch masters. Here's how not masters do: http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v= ... aIuko&feature=related

Last edited by kamkorPL, Fri 15 Feb 2008, 12:59.

Quote from Ikaponthus :

Drifting is not practical at all. It's forcing a car to do something it's not designed to do. Racing cars are designed to go fast around a track, they're not designed to slide sideways around a track.

Please..

Cars are made to travel from point A to B.

Race cars are made to race.

Drift cars are made to drift.

Rally cars are made to rally on difficult stages

etc.

And none of those motorsports is practical, and in each motorsport the car does what its designed for.

Also I will repeat something so people get it - you need grip in drift. Grip is your friend.

Quote from March Hare :

And why you can't use the existing cars in LFS to drift? And why you need a special "drift car"?

You just answered yourself in your own post:

Quote from March Hare :

Because the Panda is not really fast nor does it handle very well at speeds?

LFS cars are underpowered for drifting, they need more HP and more NM. They also need to be stripped down. Some more setup options would be welcome too. It's not a matter of wether it is possible to drift them or not.

You really never seen a proper drift car in real life, have you? There's a lot into engine tuning to get as much power as possible out of it. This includes engine swaps too, a lot of work to get right balance etc. Also throttle reaction is very important as well as suspension tuning so the car does go fast trough corners while going sideways(And so it holds angle too). Speed in drift is important, but not for the cost of going with low angle. You actually need as much grip as you can get(example tires: Toyo R888) - ofcourse this depends on how much power you have too. This is a very deep and interesting subject and don't let your ignorancy think

Drifting is also a great motorsport, because it is easier to get into it than in real racing(this depends on a country too ofcourse).

See good example of why you need proper drift car:

http://nismo.1g.fi/kuvat/bigangle2.avi

Ofcourse this course for sure doesn't need as much power as this car has, but this power saved the guy and let him clear the corner with insane angle I believe.

Another good example:

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=cfWQkkKPKyw

The thing is, March Hare - if you think there is so little into making in real life a drift car that can handle going sideways at extreme angle with extreme speed, then how about trying building it yourself.

Some people take drifting in lfs seriously in a way, and I just love showing lfs to a real drifter who knows nothing about LFS. First reaction is how weird lfs is - drifting caterhams? Drifting porsches? Oooo that other car looks like good for drifting(XR GTT). But as soon as they try GTT first response is how underpowered it is and heavy.

This year we will be trying to promote LFS @ driftingo.eu / driftingo.pl / driftingo.de - Last year we organised one event with real prizes, and this year we have a whole season in plans. But it's hard to promote it when we have porsches and caterhams doing battles on screenshots. This just does look weird.

Quote from March Hare :

What major modifications does a car need to be a "drift car"?
Apart from having:

• Been lowered
  
• Ridiculous amounts of camber
  
• RWD
  
• Dorifto graphics plastered all over

All this you can already do in LFS so why do many people want a "drift car" added to LFS?

And why the heck people created F1. Maybe because it's good to aim higher, and not be satisfied with racing let's say for example Fiat Pandas.

But oh well.. I love it when I get a chance to laugh at someone criticizing something he has no idea about. :ices_rofl First research, then write.

Aren't you the one who has been asking this in drift car suggestion thread and you that have been answered countless times even with a link to awesome S15 DW project? There must be some error in your brain, since you are having a hard time processing the information about what is a car build for drifting.

I also loved the answer to your question on 1st page:

Quote from frokki :

Easy. It's a car that's modified to perform better in drifing. You could aswell ask what is a drag car, a race car, or ice-cream van.

Brillant.

Quote from frokki :

And on topic, drifting is popular in LFS because it's fun and easy. You can just jump to any server or track with any RWD car and start drifting. No need to practise lines or tweak setups, no need to care what other people do.

Kind of. There is a lot to setup making though. I spend quite much time improving my setups to make the car be even better and better while going sideways.

About the difficulty. I think mastering racing and drifting is both extremely difficult. Mastering racing is going with perfect lines(according to the situation in a race), getting perfect splits, getting perfect laptimes etc. Now while drifting imagine doing a perfect lap each time with maximum possible angles, best lines(super close to the walls etc) and best possible speeds with those lines and angles. In fact, I believe that mastering any kind of motorsport that involves driver a lot is super hard.

But I get your point too, as it's true that even if you don't have much skill, great set etc you can jump into the server and just slide around. But there is a difference beetwen "this sliding" around and doing a perfect drift. Just like there is a difference beetwen "racing in the back" and winning a race.

Preparing to drift competitions also takes time for the ones that are serious and want to win. It's not a jump in and drive process if you are aiming high.

The feel during driving sideways in real life is an amazing feel. Drifting is also something very entertaining for spectators, hell ! I love rallies for the fact that rally drivers are going sideways on those scary fast narrow roads. If someone doesn't like drifting, then the reasons are I think:

1) He never tried it himself
2) He never at least experienced it first hand during a proper co-drive
3) He learned about drifting from FastnFurious
4) His idea of drifting is based on "local parking drifters"
5) His idea of drifting is based purely on some internet opinions.

^He/she

Maybe the mail is a late bloomer since it says "Shipment can take up to one week." Also I haven't seen invoice in box as Fanatec said on wheel confirmation there would be. I hope they give some information about how to return the wheel.

Did anyone get a mail titled: "Your order 237 will be shipped now!" or something like that from Fanatec direct?

Quote from Woz :

What cars do you drive IRL then. In 20 years I have never driven a road car with that small a lock! Many actually have 1080(...)

I agree 100% with this. I don't have 20 years of driving experience, but I haven't seen a street car with 720 degree lock yet. As 360 to the left and 360 to the right.

I especially wouldn't expect such steering lock in cars like XF GTi, Xr Gt Turbo or Fxo for example.

Quote from Hyperactive :

How does G25 provide better feedback? What's exactly better?

It's hard to explain. It is more predictable, it's stronger, it's more "RAW", it gives information "sooner/quicker". For 911 I kinda have to wait(It's not like "waiting", but this difference in quickness is very noticable when drifting and racing). Hard to explain. Imagine that G25 makes you feel like driving a race track car, making things not so comfortable for "daily street use", while 911 wheel makes you feel like driving street sports car, giving you comfortable "soft feedback" that is a compromise for race track use and "daily street use".

FFB is something you have to feel to understand. You will just have to take my word for it or try yourself(which is best way ofcourse).

Hyperactive: If you are looking for answer, which one is easier to drift with or race with, then the winner is G25. It just gives so much better feedback. I guarante that.

But after coming back to G25 to do some comparision I noticed more than ever "lack of FFB in the center" - issue that 911 wheel doesn't have.

911 also feels less mechanical than G25, but as I said, at the same time there is lack of feedback from it.

I'm not using pedals in wireless mode but still have problem with throttle. I thought it was because cable is connected in a place, which is close to the throttle.

My last impressions before I get a chance to try proper drivers:

Wheel kinda feels to me like DFP, but it turns smooth thanks to the belt. On the other hand it can spin well too, so it has something from G25 level.

Also to make the wheel spin fast(but still not as fast as g25) I have to set force in wheel to 100%(max) and in lfs to at least 50-55. With G25 my force is set to 105%(max is 200 right?) and in lfs to 40 and it spins faster and makes less resistance while turning than 911 wheel, much less resistance. Differen't kind of resistance too.. In a way more real than 911 wheel, but on the other hand without super smooth feel of 911.

About the pedals, I like the throttle it is very comfortable, clutch is okay too. The brake pedal - I still can't get used to it. The travel is way too short, 2-2,5 cm? Fanatec had nice idea for brake, but it didn't work out well imo.

The bad thing is hovewer.. With G25 I want to keep on coming back to LFS, drive more and more.. With 911 wheel I just don't. I'm trying hard to enjoy this wheel a lot, but I can't yet. Maybe If I didn't have G25 my opinion would be different right now. Maybe the new drivers will make 911 wheel change a lot to the +.. We will see.

I think he is overreacting a bit.

I think it is. But I will do some tests tommorow to make sure. Will get back to this in my next impressions post.

Also before I said that compared to g25 over the bumps it feels "muddy", I think "Softer" is a much better word here. More "classy", less "racey" style

Quote from Jertje :

I was always wondering why people reach over to press a button to the right of the shifter in that one turn... so it's the handbrake?

If you mean me pressing spacebar then yes it is a handbrake Better solution would be custom build handbrake, but..

PaulH: Perfect place to test this is south city chicane route. The first part of track is very bumpy. In G25 ffb there feels very sharp and "direct", in 911 it feels more "muddy". But then.. I'm not even sure if I have proper FFB for 911 with current drivers. I hope drivers problem can be figured out so I am 100% sure I'm testing it properly.

What do you mean about FFB when wheel is centred? Can you explain more please.

Sure, will redo it tommorow. I won't be taking out the "mounting" thing again I coudln't put it back inside at first, was scared my testing was over

Handbrake bound to the wheel?

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Kamkor, did you make that video in the brightest point of a pitch black night?

It's terribly dark.

I can see things clearly on it. It's not daylight, but I wanted to make vid as soon as I received the wheel. More vids coming. Tommorow as well.

Ok here's the vid. http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=RKKEuWAM6Ow

I have said earlier that I can't always count on its forcefeedback and indeed I can't. You can see on the vid that this wheel can countersteer fast, but sometimes it just starts reacting too slow. I hope that proper drivers will solve the problem. My impressions might change a lot then.

If you want me to record something specific in the next video - then feel free to make requests.