Quote from jibber :

Our dear forum member kamkorPL is holding 1st place in the drift point rankings.

Second now.

Drift scoring system is good, but it doesn't suit my drifting style very much.

And I hope that in full game we will be able to increase steering lock in some cars.

Have played the demo for 4-5 hours.

Graphics are great, especially the einvroments.

Incar view is great, but things feel too smooth in it. Driving from hood feels better, but I'm slowly getting used to the incar.

The physics are great, definitely improved over the f2. The tires feel grippy. In long hairpins when overspeeding at mid corner the result is understeer, which is same as real life. Drifting in ferrari feels great especially on 2nd gear in "car parking" next to the pit area. Especially when clutch kicking. But things may feel too smooth and forgivable at higher speeds, I'm not sure though as the pad steering is a big aid. But then in live for speed drifting is harder than real life, in gt5p it is way too snappy, in fm2 it's way too twitchy with pad, and in fm3 it seems too calm. It's a great fun non the less.

Also one thing I remembered about physics. In real life in corners that are "straightway to 90 degree or sharper (hairpins, long hairpins)" I've had a problem with initiating a nice early drift entry before the apex without a handbrake. I never had a problem with it in live for speed, forza 2 or other games (as in other games it's easier to break the traction and keep the drift going). But in forza 3 demo I feel the same issue. So it's a plus for the physics.

More about the steering - there is too much steering help, it makes drift control smooth, but I'd like to be able to turn faster sometimes. For example try doing a slalom or a tight chicane. I'd like to be able to do fast flicks as well for sideways, kinda hard with slowish steering (feels like stock e30 steering - 1440 degrees ftw :P). I hope they allow us to fine tune the settings ourselves.

Sounds are very good. You can even hear a pop sometimes in a ferrari (at first i thought it's car bottoming out, but I changed my mind when I heard it when standing still and reving up).

Overall, Fm3 demo is a blast, the car reacts just as I would expect it too and it's a great fun to drive. Getting full fm3 lce on pre-order. I can't wait.

edit:

AI is good, but it could be less agressive sometimes.

Last edited by kamkorPL, Thu 24 Sep 2009, 18:28.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Fair enough, but i didn't mean you personally, but all of us, if we haven't drove those cars on the limit, how can we keep debating what is "real" or not I guess it all comes down to what feels real to us.. But looking at those drift videos of Forza 2 and 3, i can't say it looks real, and that are not "drift physics", that's just general physics, and it's not exactly realistic But whatever, let's enjoy both games..

It does feel damn realistic and similar to what i felt on track when going on limits and over the limits in real life. Same feeling I get in live for speed. Live for speed actually gave me an edge in learning drifting in real life. It doesn't feel the same like Jibber said above, but it is similar, and reactions needed are similar.

Jibber has been driving his cars on limits on track too. That's the best way to find out if physics are implemented properly.

And there is one basic done in forza 2 that actually makes drifting in a way more realistic than lfs. Will be trying forza 3 demo now and see how it improved.

The problem with forza 2 is, it never looked impressive on replays, but does feel very good. Unlike gt5p, which feels decent enough, but looks pretty awesome on replays. I guess visualization of the physics and the actual physics are two different things in a way.

I guess you have driven a car in real life on tracks on limits, and drifted them (if you do comment physics of drifting) ? Or are you just comparing videos from game to videos from real life?

http://edelmanadmin.psni.com/p ... t%203/Fujimi_Kaido_Assets

Fujimi kaido screenshots and videos. Videos contain a lot of drifting I heard. Downloading now.

Mine is kamkorPL.

Will add you guys later tommorow while downloading the demo. I can't wait.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The loss of grip in LFS and in real life is very gradual, but in real life tyres do tend to regain grip quite suddenly, which is this snappy thing you refer to, and LFS is a little to relaxed on that front. I've found that in LFS once you start sliding it's actually quite difficult to end that slide even if you've got it 99.9999% corrected. In real life you correct it about 90% and the 'snap' does the rest...

You've got a point there Tristan. Although I think it depends on steering feedback (forcefeedback in lfs) too. Car settings matter too. When I started I was indeed often using that snap to finnish a drift at some point. It also helped me quickly regain grip to avoid a spinning car. But recently I noticed it's better to gradually steer to center on power out. It looks nicer too. It's just a bit uncomfortable with steering that e30 has - 1440 degrees from lock to lock.

But still I am even afraid to say its snappy, because people really take that word seriously. It's snappy in an easy way to control, and it is only making things easier not harder. Let's hope new lfs tire physics adress this issue and several others. And the funniest thing is, drifting in lfs is a bit too hard now, some stability is missing in tires. I really can't wait for this new patch.

p.s.: What I wonder is how slick tires really act on a street alike car. And how much difference in for example snapyness there can be beetwen one slick and another. And if slick is really as snappy as people say. I'd like to hear input from people who tested them in real life and not opinions based on slip angle diagrams though. I would be for example very interested to hear Tristan feedback on slick tires, even if only from open wheeler experience. Tristan please? And maybe opinion from someone who tested slick tires on normal (non formula) car as well.

edit:

using snap back example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk 27th second. Simply easier to end drift in that place and requires less effort. But looks not very good.

Last edited by kamkorPL, Mon 7 Sep 2009, 11:37.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

I definitely agree about traction loss being too gradual in LFS with respect to what I have experienced in real life. Not too long ago I crashed my car going a bit too fast into a corner. My shock absorbers probably need to be replaced, who knows if that contributed. Anyway, a small bump in a corner caused me to lose traction. But I didn't understeer, the back end of my car just decided to come out. I stupidly slammed the brakes, and then what I ended up doing is over-correcting and spinning the other direction. Then the front end of my car hit the guardrail and the back end of my car swung around and hit the guardrail. It doesn't seem possible to get LFS to act this way in it's current state, though there's no corners like the one I crashed on in LFS.

I don't really think it's too gradual from my experience. It's pretty damn close. I guess it also depends a lot on car setup. My e30 325i is very predictable. But for example stock fiat seicento is much less predictable.

There are some other aspects than tires that play a role to snapiness in real life too I think. Like open diff, or old soft bushings that make things feel more "laggy".

Most people have this weird belief that it must be snappy to be realistic.

I found the biggest transition from drifting in lfs to real life, is getting used to all the gforces and learning to use them in your advantage. Also changing road conditions are what makes real life much different to me. Also I never experienced snap back to other direction in real life (ofcourse drift transitions don't count here). Could be that rwd cars are just much more safer and more predictable. So ditch your fwd, and get an rwd!

And yeah dampers could play a role here. I drove a car with shit dampers at front, and during higher speed cornerning front felt like it was "jumping", I don't want to think how it would act sideways, but probably wouldn't be very easy to control. Shit dampers + bump + sideways + lack of experience + wrong reaction + overcorrecting = :ambulance

Anyway, I hope you weren't hurt in this crash and good luck fixing your car.

No I haven't and I don't have money for it. If I thought like that I would have to bring a trailor full of lights, bumpers, hood, mirrors, windshields etc.

I'm just trying to do what I love with keeping the costs as low as possible due to my current budget.

And trust me such situations look a whole lot easier when you only experience them from behind the monitor.

Quote from Nathan_French_14 :

Just out of curiousity, how come you stopped dead in the middle of the track? The crash didn't look that serious, so i cant imagine it stopping you from moving the car, but ofcourse, its hard to tell when watching it from a monitor.

Right after the crash I tried to drive off and then I heard plastic breaking. I got out to get the bumper from under the car, but it was well too much under it. So media guys had to help me to take it out. If I didn't have to come back on wheels home later I would probably just drive over it. It's illegal in Poland to drive on streets without a bumper.

Quote from sgt.flippy :

I especially love the fact there doesn't seem to be any yellow flags or warning whatsoever and he almost gets hit a few times, while people standing around the car...

There was a yellow flag. But the guy at the start didn't see it or the place of the "crash". They fixed positioning of flag guys afterwards.

p.s.: Seriously guys you must be bored, trying to find something to complain about.

Last edited by kamkorPL, Fri 28 Aug 2009, 23:51.

An update from me. Not much except that car has gotten some scars last weekend. Car is for sale now, If no one will buy it I'm planning on putting in m30b35, increasing steering lock + spacers + proper suspension + bigger wheels.

My qualification to top32 and tsuiso battle last weekend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS5RlPHitYU

little crash during practice on that event:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGZF0lNbMlo

updated promo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGKBEnrrAeo

Last edited by kamkorPL, Fri 28 Aug 2009, 20:53.

Quote from Drift King CZ :

Don't they actually use semi-slick in D1GP? They used slicks, but it's not allowed anymore.

Those are for 99% the tires they used in 2008. And they are very close in spec to semi slicks (like r888). Judging by threadwear value they are only a tad worse. Those are still damn grippy high perfomance tires.

And in d1 usa (or formula d, not sure again) there is regulation that threadwear can't be smaller than "xxx" (I don't remember exact value). That regulation rules out most dot-r tires (ie. r888).

Drifters drift on normal high perfomance road tires, or cheap chinese road tires, or cheap used junk depending on the money. I have done some research in may to see what tires they used in d1gp japan in 2008:

Toyo team : http://www.toyoeditor.com/r1r.html Toyo R1R Threadwear 140

Dunlop: http://www.1010tires.com/tire. ... irezza+Sport+Z1+Star+Spec Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec Threadwear 200

Yokohama: http://www.vulcantire.com/neova_t.htm Advan Neova Threadwear 180

Goodyear: http://www.goodyear.com.sg/eagle_rs_sport.html Eagle Rs Sport

Bridgestone: http://www.potenza.jp/lineup/re11/info/ Potenza RE11 Threadwear 180

Tires making coloured smoke are used very rarely, just for "show".

What we need is steering lock, tracking (spacers) and caster settings back.



Anyway, I can't wait for new physics update.

Tested the demo last night on x360.

It is an improvement to dirt 1, but I don't like it very much.

In Dirt 1 there were two cockpit views: one was close to the dashboard, another one was far away from the dashboard. In Dirt 2 there is only 1 cockpit view - the one far away from the dashboard.. There's more of a cockpit in the view than the road, which I really don't like. Feel of the car in the cockpit view is horrible too, just like Jibber said - it feels like driving a cardboard box. The car feels much better when played from the hood unfortunately.

So no buyer for me.

I like the water splash effect though, and crashes and replays, but that's not what racing game is about.

Did a little test in forza 2 for Tommy. I thought it's physics weren't advanced enough to get rear inner wheel up in fwd cars.. Changed suspension and it actually worked.



Although it should be working on some stock fwd hatches in forza 2 and it doesn't (at least not without custom suspension setup). I hope forza 3 improved in that department and that for example we will be seeing focus rs rear inner wheel going up during hard cornering.

Quote from jibber :

It's when you reach the extreme tracks, when you really start asking yourself if the devs might enjoy torturing people.

Some of the medium tracks are already a torture to me. And when buying I thought I will be riding trough fast stages with super high jumps and big explosions mostly. Eh..

And what's up with your times on some medium tracks. !!

I am only in the middle of medium and already thinking "what were they thinking" when desinging those tracks. GRRRRr

This game is awesome, I liked the trial a lot and bought it on Jibber recommendation. Having lots of fun. And beating friends records will sure provide lots of replayability.

Quote from jibber :

I love (and hate) the player indicator in the levels. I have the same thing with KamkorPL (user on this forum). He's already beating all my times, and i keep looking at his indicator and thinking "damn you!" when it disappears in the distance... hehe!

I had the same feeling when beating your records. I think the key to sucess in this game is using the surroundings to speed up properly. And having other rider info on the upper bar helps to find a faster route imo. And oh man, I hope you didn't post any crazy times while I was asleep.

I like AI in Forza 2. Sometimes they are annoying, like hard coded in some places. But most of the time they seem to be "thinking".

Once i was racing on sebring and there was this long straight to 1st/2nd gear right corner. I had damaged rear spoiler so I was missing downforce (R series), therefore I was actually trying hard to defend P1 from AI. And I blocked the inside, living very little room on the further inside, but AI still went for it and tried to pass me. It caused him to overshoot the corner and go onto the grass on the outside. It was one of those moments when I thought I was racing online, and not on single player.

Anyway, sorry for the flood of pics. My best of compilation:

HKS Evo time attack on Tsukuba. Very fun car to drive.






Nothing feels better than beating expensive sport cars in plastic evo. A850


Porsche drift car. Works as a race car too when it has slicks. Very well balanced car in forza 2.


street legal ps13:


not so street legal ps13:




Some Nissans S14:








Supercharged s2000 on nordschleife:

Quote from Nathan_French_14 :

The only negative with the physics (imo) was how incredibly easy it was to save slides. You could be doing 100mph, lose the back end and even if the car was at a 45degree angle, you could save it. Thinking about it though, i guess that may be down to using a controller, so it might be much faster than a wheel, much like using a mouse in LFS, and how fast you can turn the wheel with a mouse.

I actually have made the experiment and tried mouse in lfs after forza 2. With mouse steering it was pretty much impossible to spin. A good example would be also old kb steering help that used to be in lfs. The lfs pretty much drifted on itself back then.

But forza 2 also has auto countersteer thing. When a car catches a slide and you turn a stick even a little, in game front wheels will be turned just enough to catch that slide. So I think the biggest aid is the steering in forza 2.

I too was/am very impressed with forza 2 physics, they are really very good. There could be more impact from weight transfer (I've read forza 3 improved upon this) and low speed handling could be improved.. Or maybe not. Again the weird twitchy behaviour on low speeds is probably caused by sensitive controller.

One thing that also makes me wonder is how much better forza 2 physics feel than look on replays.

And I can't wait for forza 3. Should keep me busy until lfs development drastically moves forward.

No good place for handbrake on g25.

Best solution for me is spacebar on keyboard.

Posted it on lfsd yesterday, a copy of the post:

About time I've posted mine.

It is e30 325i that I bought from Tommy (Saiko D team mate). Car specs are:
engine: stock m20b25.
susp: poliurethans "from Olkusz" (polish ones, not powerflex), cheap sport dampers and springs.
interior: stripped, bucket seat, seatbelts, steering wheel.
diff: 4,1 final gear ratio, welded.

The car was build by Tommy, all I did was get a welded diff (it came with 25%).

Mini "promo" (too big word for that) that I've made on friday from footage* I gathered so far. Footage is from Dexter, Simon, Blackfinch (bluewind and borsuk), TazO, Adamat, Driftingo. It's not much, but I will keep practicing and someday I will get there, maybe with a more powerfull car as well. ;D

youtube - kamkor drift "p ... bmw e30 325i budget dori

Pictures:



















last 4 pics from this gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/evoletfoto/EkstazaWyrazow2009#

Ssr_nick http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3436/fm3rs200.jpg (from forzacentral)

ford rs200

I would appreciate if you could try reading my posts without fanboy glasses on.

"Lose the drift fanbase that gives quite a bit of $$$" was in context of limiting street cars setup options in reply to frokki.

And they are putting down to waste the hidden potential that game has. The drifting potential that live for speed has. If you actually did drift in real life, you would probably understand how close lfs physics are.

Anyway, I'm done convicing lfs "purists" fanboys. I believe the devs have already noticed the case. The fact that this thread has over 20k views speaks for itself.

Sure. Allow only tire pressures change in street cars. Make lfs even more boring. Limit the possibilites of having fun in lfs.

Lose the drift fanbase that gives quite a bit of $$$.

Because it's so much better to limit possibilites than to add new.

Because it's just so wrong to add more setup options (like steering lock, tracking, caster etc) and add an option to force stock setup for those who want to do "track days" in lfs, insteed of in real life.

p.s.: Jakg, I guess you're right. But well, that's devs lose. They achieved something very hard to achieve, realistic oversteer physics. It's their choice to put it down to waste.

Yes.

Basically it will allow much more agressive entries and drift transitions.

And ofcourse it will be most appreciated by people drifting with 900 degrees steering wheel.