Quote from MadCat360 :

I just said... it's very hard on tires. Their tires have to last as long as possible. Thus, over the course of hours, it is faster not to use it.

Quote from MadCat360 :

The problem with zero steer, and why touring car and F1 drivers don't try to use it, is because of two reasons:

1. chasing zero steer will make you inconsistent.

2. true slip angle equilibrium is hard on tires.

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All the fast drivers I've ever watched use my theory (in karting). We run right next to a professional national every month, with drivers spending upwards of $100,000 with a few being paid to drive, and many of them go to the world finals (2 of my coaches did). I've watched how it's done right.

I'm not doubting that, but I very much doubt that all the fast drivers drive with the same identical style... I can safely say that I notice a difference between most drivers in the way they take a corner, maybe ever so slightly but there is always a few who stand out.

Maybe that just comes from the fact I spend 20/30 hours a week at my work watching, helping and teaching people how to kart.

Quote :

Tosh. If you said that in my school you'd get a smack on the mouth.

That's why I don't go to a race school, don't see the need to be taught a bunch of theory by people who weren't good enough themselves to get a professional drive.

http://karting1.co.uk/braking-karting.htm

In that video, to do it your way you'd have to brake earlier and use more steering to get the kart to the apex. Where as stomping the brakes briefly helps you steer the kart to the apex whilst scrubing speed off as you get it a bit sideways.

I'm not here to argue with you, merely pointing out that in my opinion there is no one style better than the other. They all have pros and cons. A more aggressive driver will carry more speed into the corner and scrub it off through the friction of the tyres. Smoother ones will carry less speed in but more through the apex, just whatever floats your boat.

Last edited by keiran, Fri 4 Sep 2009, 18:41.

Quote from MadCat360 :

Even a very basic understanding of tires would tell you that it is true, and lack of understanding a subject does not make it untrue. The fastest laps are always with the least amount of steering... The long winded explanation is that each tire has a certain amount of retaining tension...

I understand the reasoning but at the same time you've still got to get the kart slowed down and around the corner. When I was racing TKM it wasn't uncommon at some circuits to be locking the drive up briefly to point it towards the apex. You don't need to be smooth to be fast, yes you can keep your tyres in better shape but most kart races are short sprints. Even the endurance racing here uses a Duros/Sumos which we use on our rental karts at work.

Quote :

So to get the rear wheels to work as hard as the fronts, we need to bring the rear end around and induce a total body slip angle. Obviously, you do this with brake and throttle manipulation - you initiate with the brake on the entry phase, and hold it with the throttle during the apex and exit phase.

Since karts have solid axles to get the rear working as hard as the front requires you to lift the inside rear tyre so there's less drag coming from it. Hence why in heavy rentals I'll use the brake and a hard steering input.

Quote :

The problem with zero steer, and why touring car and F1 drivers don't try to use it, is because of two reasons:

1. chasing zero steer will make you inconsistent.

2. true slip angle equilibrium is hard on tires.

If there was an advantage in speed to your 'zero steer' professional drivers would be doing it. They are there to get the maximum they can from themselves and machinery.

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I didn't spend many thousands on racing school and coaches to learn "the pedal on the right makes it louder". And if you think I'm wrong, Ive got many, many references who are more than qualified. A good chapter on the subject is in Carroll Smith's "Drive to Win" on Tires.

What I know and do has all been learnt from expirmenting on track and watching my competitors/other classes. Some of the guys I raced against used similar techniques and are now racing real cars, such as Ryan Sharp who is in FIA GT. Whilst maybe your theory is the ideal way to drive it doesn't make it the right or only way.

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A braking zone in my kart is about 60 feet at 70 MPH. I can knock 5 feet off that number by trail braking until 5 feet past turn-in and still exit the corner with the same speed, if not faster because I'm 4-wheel drifting. Even with 4 wheel brakes in a KZ2 at 105 MPH the braking zones mandate that you trail brake, and the good drivers do.

The only time I've really trail braked in a kart besides if I've really needed to scrub extra speed off is when driving a 125 shifter with front brakes. There's more incentive then since the weight is moving forwards you can use it to your advantage.

There's many different ways to drive out there, that's just the way I drive.

Quote from MadCat360 :

Uh, trail braking? Brief moments of zero steer? If the car is rotating in the corner then the inside wheel is picking up. You can hear it coming off the ground in my videos. I just said I couldn't zero steer an entire track. If your steering is neutral that means the slip angle is perfect. If the slip angle is perfect the inside tire's picking up.

Why would you trail brake in a kart? The way I brake in a kart and always have is stomp the pedal very quickly and release it slowly just as I turn in to force the inside rear off the ground. Obviously for corners where you don't need to scrub a lot of speed off then I don't stomp the pedal.

Quote :

The karts are 55mm rears. Still didn't stop a guy snapping one... the engines are Rotax, that's why they are bogging so much. Pretty temperature sensitive engines. Sometimes they work alright and sometimes you can't even go to full throttle until you're halfway down the straight.

I used to race a rotax and know plenty who do and have never suffered hugely with temperature. Considering I race in Scotland we just kept an eye on our readings and covered the radiator as necessary.

I don't understand your point of 'zero steer' because it's not true. There are plenty of different driving styles out there. At the track I work at I personally turn quite heavily to begin with to help slow the kart down and force the inside rear to lift. This usually gets most of my steering done straight away so I can get back on the throttle and use minimal steering through the exit of the corner.

Quote from The Moose :

I'm surprised.... I've found races every night that I've looked.

Thats mostly F2000 though...

I've been going on at like 1/2am in the morning so that's probably why

Done quite a few laps in this new version of nK and loving FF1600 around Newbury, haven't been able to find anyone online though.

Quote from Joe93 :

Do ben and elliot play LFS?

Dunno, don't really know them, just know of them. Used to race against Elliot when I raced karts.

Quote from JJ72 :

I remember someone on LFS forum races in a Scottish Legends champsionship?

Yea, that would Richard Crozier. Theres a few names in their that I used to race against Ben and Elliot Mason being a couple.

Cars look awesome fun to drive and have been told by a few people they are great fun!

Quote from carey :

Well Martin Brundle has said that he's never met a stupid racing driver (in regards to Formula 1).

Were talking in relative terms, F1 drivers are far from stupid.

Quote :

I've heard a lot of licensed users say the same thing.

And I personally find a lot of the drivers who complain are the ones who get involved in the accidents. If someone turns me around by accident, I don't stop and cry, I get on with the race and enjoy the climb back through the field. If these guys actually raced in real life they'd probably spend half their races crying to the stewards in the pits.

Quote :

They aren't completely different lines though, more variations even between drivers (although somewhat slightly).

The variations in line is probably half a foot at most, not really an adequate amount to class it as a different racing line.

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Peter Sauber said that Kimi needed to get technical and Lewis has admitted himself that he finds F1 complicated.

End of the day Kimi's job is to drive the car as quickly as it can, these days with all the telementary the engineers will have a good idea with the drivers feedback where the car is struggling.

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I was going to post this and then rather cheekily say that if Intrepid was in the car he would have turned in on Michael and rolled, and that if you where Kimi you wouldn't have overtaken around the outside on the final lap, so your drive through the field would have been to second (and Ron Dennis wouldn't have cried) and you can see why I thought better of it last night.

I'm not talking of moves like that and nor probably is Intrepid. In both those instances Alonso and Kimi were fully alongside and had a good run at the driver. The driver on the inside doesn't have the high ground so can't muscle them off the road.

When your car is hanging around the rear axle of the guy on the inside as your exiting a corner, you will always be run off the track.

Quote from carey :

So it isn't where everyone else goes, and where the rubber gets laid down (I can see this is going to be a productive conversation).

Tristan pretty much summed it up. The racing line is the quickest line around the circuit at that given time. Not sure whether there's a need for a dig, your on a open forum so conversations usually take place with many opinions .

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I was thinking of the likes of Kimi, you know, the type who does his talking on the track (for example when Lewis said after Hungary last year that he would never be overtaken around the outside again after being shamed by Felipe then Kimi did it to him at Spa).

I fail to see how that corresponds to your argument that "smart drivers don't achieve brilliant results."

I've listed you some of the drivers I feel have shown very clever race craft in their careers and you come up with Kimi...

Quote :

Well you have to pay for Xbox live and it's the exact same thing on there.

I think your missing the point... Racing on licensed servers there is more incentive to race cleanly otherwise you will find yourself banned. Banned by your username and often server admins will share the name of problem people so they find themselves quickly banned from all the major servers.

Whilst demo has this feature, all you do is make a new email and then make a new account. Pain in the ass, but there are kids out there with nothing else better to do.

Quote from carey :

What if it's a wet race and you're taking the wet (or karting) line?

The karting line is basically the middle of the track/a bit to the left, so I fail to see your argument. Whatever line you are taking consistently is your racing line...

Quote :

That's why alot of smart drivers don't achieve brilliant results.

There was me thinking Schumacher was 7 time WDC, Alonso 2 time WDC and Ayrton Senna 3 time WDC. All drivers who rarely found/find themselves hung out to dry on the outside of a corner.

Only time you will pass someone around the outside is if you can get your car ahead at the turn in point because then you force the driver on the inside to give you room.

Quote :

Sim racing etiquette? I’ve honestly only ever had one evening where I found myself with a bunch of guys (or gals) that where giving each other racing room. The rest of the time people cut each other up, as it sounds like you enjoy doing, and ram each other whether it’s in a braking zone or defending at the start of a straight.

There's a difference between racers who have paid £24 to play the game and ones who pay nothing. Every night I log on to LFS and race I can have close battles with minimal contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2JCOlU5JaY

Just doing some youtubing and came across a clip in this video that I don't remember seeing on TV!! 2:52ish two marshals nearly find themselves run over by an Arrows.

Quote from carey :

What if you’re already offline?

If a driver finds himself offline, then he is already defending the position. If your recovering from a mistake then 9/10 your going to aim to get to the inside to try hold your position.

Quote from DevilDare :

Actually, it is once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sxg39qPaA8

Yes, your allowed to move once to defend but you can then move back to the racing line. What the move once to defend rule stops is people weaving across the track. Martin has mentioned numerous times during coverage of races, and it's pretty much standard practice in any form of motorsport.

Quote from gezmoor :

I'm asking in what way and when is squeezing a car out, (ie giving them the option of either braking or getting run off the circuit to avoid contact), when beside them ever legitimate??

If you try to do the wall of death around the outside of someone then your always going to be the one ending up on the grass. That's why smart racing drivers don't put themselves in those situations.

Cheers, new direct x solved it. Hopefully get a chance to do some laps tonight

Just tried to play the new public beta and get this error when I press drive to move onto the actual game. "This application has failed to start because X3DAudio1_6.dll was not found. Re-installing the application may fix this problem.

Also a Microsoft .NET Framework error, Cannot access a disposed object, Object name: 'SaveReplayDialog'.

Any ideas?

Quote from carey :

You don’t see riders entering the pits for the fun of it during dry races (hence why I was talking about wet conditions). Anyway, during the 2007 title decider I’m sure Rossi came back into the pits, gesticulated then went back out on track.

He didn't pit for the fun of it... he had serious tyre issues, I'm not sure anyone would ride a bike at nearly 200mph with a tyre that's ready to say goodnight. In 2006 and 2007 Rossi was riding that bike well over its limits, look at where the rest of the Yamahas were finishing up.

Rossi has never missed a moto gp in his entire career, he rode with a broken wrist if I remember rightly at Assen a couple of years back. He struggled on to try pick up a point or two to keep the championship alive... so comparing his level of commitment to an F1 driver is a bit silly is it not?

F1 is by far a lot safer than MotoGP, when something goes wrong with the car you've got a high chance of getting out with no injuries. Something goes wrong on a motogp bike, you need a lot of luck that you have a nice landing.

Quote from carey :

You're allowed to move once (under the rules of racing etiquette which doesn't seem to apply to the usual front-runners).

Technically it's twice, your allowed to move once to defend and then you're allowed to move back to the racing line.

Quote from Zay :

do you race one of those?

I raced Honda Cadets, TKM and then Jnr Rotax. Not anymore though.

Hopefully I'll be racing < in some form in the future.

Quote from Ssr_Nick :

I did the first national at west london which just sucked, didn't get a run with out rain and by the time it dried up i'd failed to qualify anywher decent and ended up 2nd overall in the last but 1 final, lesson learn't for my next national.... Take gear to water proof the car!! lolthou

A few guys from up here have been doing the nationals, saw the pictures from west london! Didn't sound much better last round out at Cotswold.

I need to give my TC3 a good bit of TLC ready for the last few outdoor rounds with the way the weathers been!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... S0UTU&feature=related

Some footage back in 1998 of the internations held at Golspie. The track has changed since they've extended it and added the "The Corkscrew" which lives up to its name!

Yea saw them on RC Tech and AE forums, also seen your name there too. Just got the bulkheads a few weeks back, haven't been able to put them through their paces yet though Chucked it down at my last race so was using my old faithful waterproofed TC3, can't afford to be blowing up my brushless stuff. They certainly improve the weight balance, mines almost perfect. Hopefully they will also stop me from grinding my motor away as well!!!

Congrats on the win! I'm having a bit of a torrid season outdoors at the moment. Best result this year was 10th in pro-stock at the Muchmore UK GP http://www.redrc.net/2009/06/g ... n-2009-mmukgp/#more-20048 Tend to be hoovering around 5th/6th in the A-final at my local club.

Been struggling with lack of initial braking since going brushless, got myself a spool to see if that helps any.

After seeing a few comments about R/C racing here and there on the forum and some user names relating to r/c brands I thought I'd start a thread.

I'm chairman of a indoor club which races on carpet during the winter. During the summer I race outdoors, I'm quite lucky that I live about 50mins away from a big purpose built circuit. I try travel around Scotland racing in our regional series. I only race 1/10th 4wd touring cars, although might try my hand at 2wd offroad at some point.

Pictured is the car I've been racing the past couple of years, TC5 Factory Team, with 10.5 speed passion brushless motor and ESC.

Anyone else race these scaled down beasts?

I've not seen a TKM in my kneck of the woods the last two years. Only classes running now are Cadets (Honda/Comer), Rotax Max (Mini/Jnr/Snr) and ICC.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77362

"But I keep thinking that my goal is not to win the championship. If we are second or third in the champonship, that would be good enough for us. If we can win, it would be unbelievable, but it's not our goal."

Thats just psychological games, Lorenzo is not trying to pressure himself too much. If he wants the same wage as Rossi at Yahama then he wouldn't be doing himself any favours saying that. Look at Rossi in 2006, had a torrid year but never gave up and in the end nearly won the title.

Rossi has mentally destroyed pretty much every rider to take him on in the big class, Biaggi, Sete and to a degree Stoner after Laguna Seca 2008.

If you've never had a shot of a proper kart then I'd suggest "Lets go Karting" if there are circuits close to you which are participating. Only costs £5 and you should get a shot of something with a bit more poke than a rental kart.

http://www.letsgokarting.net/

At your age your gonna struggle to get onto a full size circuit without owning your own race car aimed at juniors.

Quote from jasonmatthews :

That looks VERY interesting Amp, 70mph pro karts Close to Edinburgh aswell. Maybe you could give them a call and ask how long the karting is for? It says £600 for 12 people, which equates to £50 each, but it doesn't say how much track time that is?

There karts don't touch near 70mph, not even the racing pro-karts (i.e twin 200c engined karts) reach those speeds, yet alone the big heavy duty rental ones.

Its been years since I've been to raceland but from what I remember it's not too bad facilities wise. Although you wont get anywhere near the amount of time karting yous guys managed to get at Wales!!

You'll get better value for money doing endurance races, most karting centers you'll find in the "Grand Prix" events you don't get a huge amount of seat time.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

Bah, I would love to try and get you all up to Golspie (about 1 hour driver north of Inverness, or another 5 hours drive north of Edinburgh) but then I would imagine that many would not fancy the journey so if the next one is to be in Scotland (and I would love it to be) it's going to have to be 'down there'

Golspie is an awesome track, was probably my favorite track when I raced karts!! Do the club do corporate stuff there now?