What amount of training could save him from what looked to be a mechanical failure?

He had already managed a few runs, was it 6? before this happened. The parachute was deployed and the fuel line cut so he did everything necessary.

Keiran

Thanks for the info

Quote from nutty boy :

I don't know how you'd do that but i'd love to.

News update from Sky News: I only caught a tiny bit of the update there but the BBC and HSE are wondering if it was a good idea to put an amateur in a 300mph capable car with pretty much no experience of them speeds.

Rightly so I say. They shouldn't have done it.

I'll keep checking the news channels nightly for news updates to keep you up to date with the condition of Hamster.

It was his choice to sit in that car. If he had said there was no way he was going to do it, they'd have not put him in the car. Many people would give an arm and a leg to do it and I'm sure he was the same. I bet anyone could get a shot of that jet powered car if they have the money.

The fact they are saying they think he'll make a `good` recovery seems like careful word choice to me, I just hope it's not hinting that they feel he maybe suffer permanent damage

Keiran

Last edited by keiran, Wed 20 Sep 2006, 20:12.

GP4 tracks seem pretty spot on to me for a game anyway. Take a look around at some of the GP4 vs real life comparisons, they are pretty much identical.

There seems to be some patch on the horizon for nK which is a good sign, although Kunos should really be working his ass off to make up for all this time. I really hope nK gets into a workable (I mean bugless) state where it can be improved because I think it has a lot of potential.

So far not communicating with the community and having a `tip of the week` that never changes isn't helping his cause.

Keiran

Quote from Tweaker :

(well it looks like everyone is really average in the wet, because anything could happen)

[disclaimer]Having very little knowledge myself on riding motorbikes etc I maybe wrong[/disclaimer].

I'm sure I heard them say (Eurosport) that the problem for the riders is they can't push the front like you can in a car as if you lose the front on the bike you'll most likely be on the ground. Obviously in something with four wheels you can understeer a fair bit and continue on but on a bike I guess it's face first onto the tarmac

Keiran

Not sure, Eurosport usually repeat it a few times.

Good race though. A few races ago I was doubting The Doctor's chances but is he digging deep or what. He is like the only rider on a Yahama ever near the front

Nicky must be destroyed at Rossi clawing the championship gap down.

Isn't that just a bling bling version of what we have in F9? or F10 which ever menu it's under.

Keiran

Quote from Hoellsen :

On the start: you are seeing things that arent there. I have read of no opinion by anyone that has anything to say that would support your view.



They are still running them, just like anyone else.



You are forgetting that it was the other way round at Hockenheim. Scruteneering is done by the race stewards and not the FIA and of the three stewards two are changed for each race. So it is very much thinkable that the opinion of the non-permanent stewards in Hockenheim and Budapest differed. Nothing the FIA can do about that under the current steward-rules.

I do think, though, that the system used for the stewards is bullshit.

I'm not `seeing` things he changes direction 3 times and I've already explained at the points where he does. Just need an onboard shot from Schumcaher's car so you can actually see the wheel movements.

Quote from Fisi after race press thingy :

I got a good start and was close to the guys in front. Michael was weaving quite a lot on the track, and the other drivers were having to avoid him

I know some other drivers and teams commented on it but can't remember where I read them. This is the only quote I can find as it was officialy said in the press conference thing.

Ferrari are not still running there flexi wings which were in question. Of course every cars wings are flexing as they'd just break otherwise. It's the way in which the front upper element of Ferrari's wing was breaking apart from the nose cone. Also breaking the rule which states aerodynamic parts must be securely attached to the car.

That's news to me that race stewards do scruteneering. I very much doubt they do considering during qualifying cars are constantly being pulled in to be weighed so would defeat the purpose of the race stewards who should be monitoring the on track action.

Quote from BigDave2967][/SIZE]At least something is being done about it

Doing what? Max Mosley was adamant that they had made the right decision and there was no question about it, now they've gone back on that decision.

They should be at least publicly apologising to Renault.

Keiran

Quote :

The FIA has moved to ensure there is no repeat of the controversy surrounding Fernando Alonso's qualifying penalty at Monza by changing the way that blocking incidents will be dealt with from now on.

Alonso was dropped five places on the grid for the Italian Grand Prix after the race stewards found that he had impeded Felipe Massa during the closing stages of qualifying.

That decision created a furore at Renault, who both denied that Alonso had done anything deliberately and then attacked the governing body for what they felt was manipulation of the championship battle.

In Renault's post race press release, team boss Flavio Briatore said: "The problem comes when it is not just the sport that influences the outcome of races and championships."

And with Alonso also claiming that he no longer felt F1 was 'a sport', the fall out of the incident generated media coverage that partly overshadowed Michael Schumacher's retirement decision.

The FIA has now reacted to what happened at Monza and will now change the way that incidents are dealt with.

FIA race director Charlie Whiting has written to the teams and told them that the stewards will no longer investigate all complaints of blocking from teams. Instead they will only look at those that he feels shows deliberate intent to impede a rival.

In Whiting's fax, he wrote: "Complaints that a driver has been impeded during qualifying will no longer be referred to the stewards of the meeting. Only in cases where it appears to race control that there has been a clear and deliberate attempt to impede another driver will the stewards be asked to intervene."

And in a sentence aimed clearly at Renault's reaction to what happened at Monza, he added: "We now feel it is pointless for the stewards to engage in long and painstaking enquiries if competitors ignore clear scientific evidence and instead abuse the regulator."

Bit late aren't you FIA, that just takes the micky.

Keiran

Last edited by keiran, Fri 15 Sep 2006, 16:19.

Quote from Hoellsen :

Have you even tried understanding my post? I did not write a single line regarding the basis of the ruling and wether I find that acceptable.

I simply wrote why the FIA "all of a sudden stamped there foot". They weren't involved before McLaren filed the protest and they do not act without being presented a device and/or without a protest being filed.



I guess you havent seen any onboard videos from the same perspective as the Ferrari ones. That Renault's front wing was flexibel could already be seen last season. The only reason it became more apparent with Ferrari's wing was that Ferrari had the upper part of the wing touching the nose and that this part was bending away. The back lip of the lower shelf has been moving on all front wings quite some time now, not just since Bahrain when the issue got hot.



Just one word: lol

Is MS now not allowed to attack the pole sitter when he is in P2 and/or defend his position? Must he look that no car that is behind him not spin? I guess he should better start from the back of the grid from now on so he can make sure none of the Super Aguri and Midland get affected by him turning into a corner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJQ0wpkus38

Maybe Fisico should complain to Alonso for cutting across in the way he did? But in no means had MS anything to do with Fisico spinning.

Thanks for that video, proved my point exactly. He changes direction 3 times, you are only allowed to move once and technically back to the racing line. He moves once across to try stop the fast starting Alonso but fails. He then sees Fisi so moves across on him and he then comes back across towards Alonso to force him out wide to stop him from driving clean around the outside, like he was away to do. You can clearly see from Alonso's onboard camera he has to avoid the kamikaze Ferrari.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAPUziN41aU

My point is that the flexi wings took ages before they were removed from the Ferrari. The FIA were stamping down on it yet Ferrari continued to run them without penalty nor threat.

Renault had to remove the mass damper at the click of a finger and were told after that race meeting they'd be allowed to put it back on the car until the court case. So when Renault turn up with the device at Hungary they are forced to remove it as the car failed pre race scruteneering because of it.

To me that shows one thing only, the FIA trying to mess Renault around and put them on there back foot. It's been highlighted many times since with all sorts of strange penalties. This is not how a governing body should work, and especially one of such high profile as the FIA.

Keiran

Just taken a look around the website and watched the video, looked great fun

From the onboard video it looked great, I guess the only problem with them small 2 run sprints is the tyres are probably barely reaching optimum temps .

Quote from Noccy :

Im afraid that reasoning is a bit wrong.
The whole front wing is labeled as an aerodynamic device ,so it or parts of it cant move independently.
A steering wheel or pedals are not considered aerodynamic devices so they arent affected by this rule.




Well Renault and many other teams used flexi wings too.. they simply got scared that Ferrari (ab)used the principle in a more efficient way, so they filed a complaint.

The FIA might rule in favour of Ferrari now and then (just like they helped other teams to victory in the past) ,but i dont think u should see it as if everything is done to stop Renault. Every team tries to find loopholes in the rules and they all use them. The FIA just tries to stop the most blatant ones or if they are appealed.

About the wheel-rims , why doesnt renault install something similar..either that or appeal it with the FIA (which they havent done as far as i know?)

Quote from FIA Technical Regulation 3.15 :

Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any
degree of freedom).

This doesn't state that only the front wing is included. This rule is designed to cover the whole car. It doesn't exclude the steering wheel, throttle pedal and brake pedal which all have a degree of freedom. This device has been in the Renault since the end of 05 and has never been questioned. Yet the FIA can just stamp there foot all of a sudden at a GP weekend and tell them to remove it. Even though the stewards are the people that ultimately make the decision on the race weekend and they stated that it was legal.

Ferrari were the ones running the most obvious Flexi wing to the lot. I've yet to see hard evidence of significant movement on the Renault wings, when I've seen pictures onboard the Ferrari where the whole upper element has come away from the nose cone.

This just isn't about the mass damper saga, fair enough if that was the only penalty given to Renault but so far there has been a few controversial decisions.

A) Changing the rules to let Schumacher off with corner cutting. Now any driver can just fly down the inside and as long as they are a nose ahead fly over the tarmac run off and take the position without having to let them re-pass.
B) Penalising Alonso for overtaking under yellow flag when he had no option but to as the car moved over and slowed. He was 3.8 seconds off or something like that at the split so wasn't even pushing under yellows.
C) Ban of mass damper which I still believe doesn't have a solid rule to ban it.
D) Monza penalty which only one team I've seen agree with and that's the red one.
E) Turkish GP start which I thought was very dodgy from Schumacher, in the end resulting in Fisi spinning.

There are drivers on that grid like Mark Webber who to me was hinting at the FIA putting Renault on there back foot when he was talking about the penalty and the ban of the mass damper.

F1 is in a sad state of affairs and with FIA logic it's not getting any better.

Quote from Hoellsen :

On the mass damper issue:

When Renault introduced the system, they did not present it to the FIA. They did not have to since the rules say basically "if you think it's legal, it is". Renault thought it was legal, hence never presented it.

This rule remains true until either the stewards or another team bring the issue before the FIA. Again, the stewards never did so, thus the FIA had for quite a while no reason to interact, after all, until the protest came, the device was basically deemed legal.

However, when McLaren (and pls do remember that Dennis isn't the biggest fan of Ferrari) presented the issue to the FIA, it finally had reason to decide on this issue. So there is really no conspiracy on the timing of the decision, it's just a result of rules that are pretty liberal but can bite you when you wrongly (in the eyes of the FIA) judge the legality of a device.

They banned it under a rule ruling that an aerodynamic device should not move. They have twisted the ruling to say that this influences the aerodynamics of the car and moves therefore is illegal, so on that logic ban the steering wheel, brake pedal and throttle pedal which all have a larger influence on the aerodynamics.

Ferrari are getting off with breaking rules with them disc things, and so are other teams. That is not one mould and is being changed everytime they change the wheels, thus breaking parc ferme rules. Have the FIA banned them? Ferrari used flexi wings for ages and there was clear evidence of the wing pulling apart from the car under stress, how long did it take for that to be banned? A life time. How long did it take them to say you can't use the mass dampers? Basically one day, forcing Renault to remove the system.

Plenty has gone on this season to disadvantage Renault and a lot of it has been very suspicious and quite frankly it shouldn't be. A decision shouldn't leave most of the teams and drivers except the one it's advantaging thinking "WTF!". A decision should be based on hard evidence.

Keiran

http://www.sportnetwork.net/main/s491/st104237.htm

That article sums up the recent actions of the FIA.

Last edited by keiran, Thu 14 Sep 2006, 14:13.

Quote from Vykos69 :

Sure, he blamed the FIA for that blown engine. Beside the fact, that he would have run even higher RPMs all the race, if started from 5th place, and still not matching the speed of the two winners there. But he clearly said: From starting position 5, I would have won it. illepall A little reality lost? His fastest race-laptime was more than half a sec slower than Michaels and Kimis. I dont like him, he's the one, who behaves childish and whiny, and his interview in spanish radio yesterday was another clear point to show that again. Why on earth is he pointing towards MS, that he's the most unfair racer? It's Kindergarten-play what he does there, and he will pay for that. I guess his title last year will be the first for quite a while...

You quote me where he blames the FIA for a blown engine... He wouldn't have run high RPMs all the way through the race if he had started 5th, Renault know what they are doing. They wouldn't stress the engine with no hope in hell of making it pay off. Fastest laps mean nothing in a race, if he can lap quicker than them over a stint. Kimi set many fastest laps last year did it win him all the races?

Childish and whiny? This is the first time I've seen him complain and he has very right to do so. The FIA have gone out of there way to disadvantage Renault and Alonso this year.

Funny how they changed the rule just to get Schumcaher out of trouble for cutting the chicane, isn't it?

Keiran

Quote from F1racing.net :

"Michael is the most unsporting driver F1 has ever seen," Alonso told Spanish radio station Marca.

"Zidane retired with more glory than Schumacher," he added.

The Spaniard did, however, admit how much he enjoyed the opportunity to race against the seven-time Worl Champion.

"That doesn't mean he hasn't been the best driver, and fighting against him has been an honour and a pleasure," Alonso said.

Alonso has a two point lead over Schumacher with only three races to go this season but disagrees with his Team Principal Flavio Briatore that a run of decisions against the Renault team has gifted Schumacher the drivers' title.

"I don't agree with Flavio. They haven't given the title to Schumacher already. It's true there have been a lot of decisions against some and in favour of other but that's it."

Alonso said enough nice things about Schumacher there in that very same interview...

lol, someone requesting something which is already implemented...

Keiran

I've a Mk1 1.2 Clio which is horrible in the wet. You'd think the nice thin tyres would just grip the road but by god is it understeer city. Tyres are probably down to about 2mm and hard as hell but it's a very easy car to catch. You'll always get understeer or oversteer in the wet, it's the nature of less grip. I think my days of karting have without a doubt kept me on the road and made me aware of how I should drive.

It's the very fact that I can be sitting in a friends car and I've said did you know your car was understeering a bit there, and they'll say whats understeer? This friend doesn't even drive over the speed limit nor does he thrash his car he just couldn't feel it.

Thats the biggest reason for crashes in the wet or even the dry because people don't know when the car loses grip. You should be taken to a kart track and taught how to drive in the wet, that would shake some people up.

Keiran

Quote from Vykos69 :

We'll talk in a few years again, ok? ATM, he has as many penalties as schumi had after the same amount of years in F1...

I didnt say, he overtook in red flag, that was an ironic pointing to the second vid, where schumacher WASNT pushing at all, but passed them slowly, and Alonso clearly slowed down a lot for whatever reason... But hey, no need to argue with you, Alonso is clean and fair, doesnt braketest (what was that with coulthard in and) and is the fairest and nicest racer ever. That's also the reason, why he starts whining and blaming the FIA for blown up engines... dream on, I enjoy meanwhile the last championship of the best racer of all times.

Quote from Vykos69 :

Wake up, he is as fair, as Schumi is. And that is a real red flag overtake with "Full" speed, while Alonso was driving as fast as possible:

So you don't say that Alonso passed under a red flag...

If Schumacher had only passed Alonso then yes there would be a possibility of him playing games. But to come flying up behind 2 other cars and then just drive right around the outside of the whole 3 is breaking the rules, full stop. Alonso only slowed down when Schumacher was on his way passing the BMW rookie who seemed to understand the rules better than the old man. So far you've yet to justify how Alonso planned this all out, to actually get Schumacher onto the tail of the group, did he telepathically tell Schumacher to overtake?

Coulthard at nürburgring ? What are you on about? Back in Coulthards day at McLaren? Coulthard ****ed up, and I'd be the first to defend Coulthard. He is the driver I support, hell I don't even support Alonso, I just admire him for what he is achieving at such a young age.

LOL don't make me laugh, he never blamed the FIA for a blown engine. He merely stated that he was running in the dirty air a lot more than he would have had he started where he wanted, and he was running it high revs all the way. Renault have said the engine blowing is part of the sport, it's the interfering which isn't.

This year is just going more and more to a fixed championship, when I say that I mean in the way to spice it up. Make it close right down to the wire. The FIA trying to spice it up because so far they've left most teams and drivers puzzled at the ban of the mass damper system and the penalty Alonso took. Then add on the yellow flag `pass` from Hungary which is just illepall

Keiran

Quote from Hoellsen :

Right. Gesturing the international finger at another driver (Monaco 2004 when he unnecessarily drove into the dirty part of the track and hence went into the armco) or waving hands multiple times at drivers that supposedly held him up or braketesting people that supposedly held him up - under yellow flags, mind you - are sure signs for a very calm person.

Man oh man, do you just read a little bit of forum posts and make a conclusion or what illepall You obviously don't watch F1 very closely, if at all.

Ralf Schumacher's car was travelling so slowly that it caught many drivers out. I know because one of my Dad's friends was at the GP at the corner just out of the tunnel. He said loads of drivers were caught out. Alonso went through the tunnel and excepted Ralf to yield, Ralf didn't resulting in Alonso being on the dirty side which put him in the wall. That car of Ralfs should have been given the black/orange flag as it was a danger on the track.

Please, please tell me who he passed under a yellow flag waving his hands while brake testing them FACT is there was no yellow or red flag which you seem to think there was. There was no supposedly, he held him up, Alonso was frustrated that he'd wasted one of his set of allocations of tyres and let out his frustration. This is the only time I've seen Alonso crack like that and with the pressure on his shoulders he has a strong head.

Hungary everything was against him, the penalties of one which he didn't deserve and two the mass damper saga meaning they were forced to remove them when they were told they'd be allowed to use them, last minute call by the FIA failing Red Bulls car. Giving they had a whole week or two they surely could have informed teams they changed there mind rather than just fail the cars at pre race scrutenering? Yet with all this going on Alonso kept his head and drove a stunning first few laps to be right up in the chase. Even when Schumacher blocked him when he should have yielded under the blue flags he just kept his head. Then the wheel nut went, did he throw a hissy ? No, he just walked off knowing he had lost an easy win.

Turkey, the car wasn't quick enough but did he crack? No, he kept himself up in the chase and it paid off. Schumi was too busy relaying on his team mate to slow down at some point in the GP that when the safety car came out he was screwed. Alonso took the position and held him off with some very nice smart defending.

Monza, a stupid penalty applied and a very frustrated Alonso. Did he fly into T1 with red mist taking over? No he kept his head and drove a fantastic race to 3rd to have an engine failure. Did he threw a fit and throw his steering wheel a mile away? No he just kept his head.

Not many drivers would keep such a positive look that Alonso does, even ice cool Kimi cracks and throws things about, can you blame him? No. Just because Alonso shows his frustration at back markers with his hands doesn't mean he is the only one. You really think that not one of them drivers gets very frustrated when being held up? Some will let it out verbally, some will start driving aggressively and others will let it out with gestures.

My first race my Dad told me that if anyone does something which is wrong or frustrates you let it out with a gesture. That way someone and/or the clerk of the course may see it. It's the most effective way to get the attention of marshals etc who aren't doing there job properly.

Keiran

Quote from tristancliffe :

Next someone will say Schumi drove into Heidfeld at Hungaroring...

He did the exact same thing to the exact same driver at Melbourne 05 and it ended the same way. Schumacher had lost the position but still put Nick on the kerb. I wouldn't class the kerb as part of the track and nor do the rules, they clearly state the white line as the border so Schumacher effectivley forced him off the road when it was all too late.

Keiran

Quote from Vykos69 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feslxpzokuk

Yeah, sure...

Wake up, he is as fair, as Schumi is. And that is a real red flag overtake with "Full" speed, while Alonso was driving as fast as possible:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI2t4Syw7QY

Now, gimme another 1000 words on how fair Alonso is, and Schumi isnt or whatever. On my point of view both are on a same level in terms of ruthlessness.

Well first of all you could get your facts right. Alonso didn't overtake the RBR car under a red flag illepall I don't agree with what he did but he had a reason after getting held up on his lap. Schumacher has knocked, punted, tried to knock people off for the championship. What reason did Schumacher have to brake test Montoya ? What reason has he had to knock people off the track? Has Alonso under race conditions knocked anyone off the road for the win/championship? No.

You can't blame Alonso for Schumacher continuing to push his car on under red flags and then continue to pass the group of three. What do you think? That the team told him to do it over the radio? That he managed to see that Ferrari coming hammering down the track?

I can find loads of videos of Schumacher playing dirty games and yet some how the driver you claim to be just as ruthless has none? Alonso is as calm as you like but also a hard racer, I very much doubt he will resort to bumping other cars off the road.

Keiran

Quote from BWX232 :

Pics of real life mean nothing because they could be taken the instant the tire is flexing the most.. and then the tires bounce back to a more normal degree of "flexing"..

In LFS the tires seem to flex, and "stay flexed" way too long.. without bouncing back to a happy medium just like that Porsche movie shows.

Personally I think another factor could be the way the tyre can move on the wheel. In gearbox karts they use little screws to stop the tyre pulling away from the wheel. I know the way they bond has some special name like bead, can't remember . That picture I posted has gearbox tyres on with no screws and you can see it coming away from the wheel ever so slightly. I think if this happened in LFS it probably wouldn't look so extreme.

Keiran