Quote :

About the adjustable boost, most of the drivers can handle the max boost so all will use the highest one. If you had a setting from 0,6 to 0.8 bar on the XRT with let say 0.01 increments, what would you use? 0.6? I know i wouldn't. best to leave this as it is, even now he cars just aren't balanced so well, that would unbalance them even more. Running higher boost (0.1 or 0.2 bar) doesn't have much negative sideeffects. Running more or less rich mixture has. That's the difference here. That's why mixture settings would work better and even those wouldn't work the best.

lets say that turbos where ajustable in LFS. Boost preausre isnt the only varible when it comes to a turbo. the size of the turbo plays a big roll 2 factors are Turbo lag and maximum boost. finding a balance between the 2 can be a chanlenge
Eg
In order to get alot of Boost u need a big turbo, biger turbo takes longer to spool Result turbo lag. and if the turbo ever kicks in real hard while exiting a corner. well u can imagine.

Now lets say u get a smaller turbo it spools up faster but it won't beable to make alot of boost.

Quote :

Running higher boost (0.1 or 0.2 bar) doesn't have much negative sideeffects.

Fuel comsumption u could build a setup engine wise and suspension which main goal was preservation, resulting in less time in the pits. could be quite competative in an endurance race

hes not asking to to split the game into two different parts.
hes basically asking for user defined classes between the cars
Example
the GTI,XRT,XRG are not in the same class of car, the can't compete which each other competivily.

Now if u where able to lets stay add a turbo to the GTI or modify its performance to bring it into the same league as the XRT they would be able to compete.

its been stated before that some people just rather not have to worry about tunning a car, so he sugested that we have class system

Eg
Class S-Stock cars
Class T250- tune;with 250 horsepower limit

Quote from Primoz :

The only engine tuning i see reasonable is setting the richness of the mixture. Running rich, more power, colder engine but the fuel usage gets sky high. Running a less rich mixture helps the fuel economy but gives less hp and the engne is running hotter (at least that's what i read on this forum )

thats generally what happens but not always. run too rich and u lose power and damage the engine. run to lean and loose power and damage engine

So u would need a engine damage simmulated i guess.

Quote :

What you are really asking for is modding capability

What do u mean by
Modding
Tunning
Build your own Engine
what your definition of each
i wanna be on same page as you have a feeling everyone has a slightly different definition which makes having a discussion hard.

Quote from xaotik :

Actually LFS simulates engine, suspension, (rudinemtary) aero and tyres and lets you try to do number 3. Because it's not tunable doesn't mean it isn't simulated.

ok if u take it to such a low level, i am not sure because i havent ran across any documentation on the way LFS_engine actually works. But am guessing that powerbands are derived from the same values that LFSTweak uses. that would be a very primitive way of simulating a engine. its not bad because its serves it purpose in LFS current state. but its no way as complex the suspension or tires

EDIT
was just thinkig of another thing it adds. alot of people want a LX8 if this system in implemented that would not be a problem . u can have serveral different classes with the same car.

Last edited by lalathegreat, Tue 2 May 2006, 12:25.

too me it adds alot
First its adds alot more varierty to what can be done with LFS

Drag racing now as more of a point~even though i do it i am annoyed at cars reving down the track with the same engine makes no sence.

Drifting~ becomes slightly more easier, sometimes i feel i want more power in certain areas of the power band

Racing~ i think this is where most benefit comes, it opens up a whole way to stategize a win. there would be many options u could to gain victory

to mee u need 3 things to win a race
1 good engine
2 good suspension
3 Good Driver

LFS emulates 2 & 3 but not 1

Quote :

What does engine tuning add to this sim? So every racer takes the "fastest" setting that is found out after a week?

IMO adding engine tuning would be a waste of time for a feature that is cool for five minutes and then ends up as "just another setup option".

U see this is the problem right here, even with current setups. Somepeople just refuses to learn how to make one. u have to be constantly inovating your setups and tryin different driving styles to get better. its dumb to get what works for someone else, and expect it to work for u.

some people think make setups for a given driving style, while i feel u change driving style for a given setup. i guess these sort of multiple setups and such only work when u got stiff competion.

i myself have suggested tunning before and most people seem to think it will make the game unfair is some way. i suggested the same different classes.
the argument for this is it gonna make it hard to just come online and find a game.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showth ... mp;highlight=build+engine
here a link to a previous disccusion

tristancliffe u know traction control is like crack right lol, u can get addicted to it


all of a sudden everyone loves tracktion control, i remmeber days of when everyone hated tracktion control and almost everyone is down wit it now

lol didn't notice this came back

i would like to remind everyone that it was build your own engine lol

to all you people who where saying that suspension setups are simple i beg to differ. There not more complicated than engine tunning.
http://www.dewtronics.com/tutorials/phor/index.html
dosent look so simple too me

Engine tunnig can be about personaly preff as well. some of us here may preffer a turbo car while some of us preffer a Na car.(small example)

like i said it wasnt a matter of adding X part and getting X result it was about Specifing Numbers weather it was cam duration or lift Turbo A/r or runner lenght. and such
More horsepower dosent mean victory, thats some sort of ricer mentality.

If u where a shity driver in this car your gonna be a shitty driver in any other another car. And the way LFS is its gonna take more skill to drive a more powerfull car. you excellent drivers have nothing to worry about

Quote :

it's almost exclusively for front wheel driven cars, which are, by definition, granny cars.

why the hate on FWD cars

Although it isnt seen much in racing i think Vtec and other Varible valve timming and varible cam timming could be usefull if you used it wisely


you guys looking at cars Honda S2000 is where its at Very nice driving car

Quote :

If i must elaborate.


This is something which should be brought up when S3 is in development.

Right now, its fine to suggest it as you have, but in reality its quite pointless to discuss it so early. There are many, many other features which are a lot more important to gameplay\physics that need to be addressed.
RMachucaA

if u look at my first post u will see i stated that already

Quote :

all in all it docent really matter who is right or wrong here. Adding such a feature as building your engine is a big upgrade. I don't expect scarwen to come here and be like this is what i got to work on. Before a system like this is implemented there are a several other things that really need to be added and fixed. Tire physics brake fade to name a few. I still do think such a feature needs to be added. though if it were to be added it would be far off, i see no harm in discussing it.

@jtw62074 he hit the nail on the head with what i was trying to convey
@RMachucaA ???? whats that suppose to mean

Quote :

for the most part (or at least for a very large part) engine behaviour is affected by fluid dynamics the computation of which is a field thats still solely in the hands of engineering experts and very good coders
if you ever want to see any results you have to know a lot about the basics of fluid dynamics ... a lot about fe grid optimisation and also on writing fast code
and even then simulating a single valve takes an eternity on a home pc

what do u mean by fluid Dynamics?

Thats way more complex than what i am suggesting. i get the feeling some of u guys think i am suggesting simmulatring everything in the engine down to thermal Dynamics and combustion physics. deff far from that

On a seperate note have u seen the program Engine Analyser Pro?

Quote :

What are you basing that on? Talk to a developer and see what they say.

After reading LFS manual its quite obvious its not a simple physics engine. i mean u can just look at it tons of numbers all over the place.

I have my reaons for why i havnt bought the game, it has nothing to do with quality though. My opinion isnt going to change even if i buy the game.

Quote :

For a start, Scawen would have to do all of it (unless he wants another guy in the team, which I think he doesn't, going by what he's said in the past), which would take ages. Because of that, he'd do it last of all, probably after S3 was released and everything was finalised.

look at the physics now there alot of numbers in the mix to get the results we we play with. If you shown me this game and i didn't know who made it. last thing i would of guessed was one person did all the programming. Am still amazed at it. from a developement stand point i don't see it being much more difficult than the current Physics system.

Quote :

everyone's hotlaps would be null and void and we'd have to start over.

its often said on this forum that LFS is a alpha and far from finished. if thats the case, as the physics are tweaked the hotlaps will all become "Null and Void" anyway. plus you could make hotlaps only done with standard engines.

Quote :

"why wasn't this particular aspect of engine tuning included when this other one was, and why can I adjust this bit but not this other bit?" and so forth.

don't we already have this today.

Quote :

(which would need to have rules as well as people who would monitor those rules)

this could be all done easily server side same way u retric certain types of cars

Quote :

you'd roll up to a server for a quick pickup race and be blown off the track by some experienced tunester(s) who wouldn't share his setup/advice and you'd be dissillusioned quite quickly

This can already happen if someone has a superior setup

Quote :

(that, or you'd see a list full of non-tune or tune-only servers and you may not see anything that suits you - and sometimes it's hard enough already to find a track/car combo you like, depending on the time of day

If done right it could eliminate this problem. why because we can have classes that are not based on cars themselves but specification of the cars
Stock Class A Class B ETC. although u have a point (i don't know whats its like finding a race in Full version)

Quote :

im not sure about all of these as i dont follow them but im sure if its not no engine tweaking its very little. THink formula ford, formula renault, btcc to an extent, A1 GP, cupra cup etc. I no A1 GP was designed to be whos the better driver instead of whos got the most money. Cupra cup is done to find out whos the better driver in pretty much (if not) identical cars. And whoever won got a chance to race for seat in the btcc.

Those leagues where deff made with driver skill in mind. but the whole goal of the engine tweak tune build is not to destroy that aspect of LFS but to add to LFS. Just because Engine modifications where added don't mean u can't hold racees where the engines are the same. no?

As i stated before i rather see it user determined whether or not engines can be modified for a given race

LFS as a sim is very unique because its not a road car sim, Formula sim,kart sim. its a mixture of all, and this is mostly due to its dynamic physics. because of this u see stuff like drifting happenning. as sure when scarwen first started he prob didn't fore see people drifting. Engine modfication would create a different types of gameplay and LFS leagues not seen before.

Quote :

Building whole engines would be a pain to program/do properly. And what kind of racing cars have no limits for engine building?

i use to think that too but look at LFS now look at the physics system. it probaly wasnt easy to do. any engine system should not be anyless more complicated that the current physics system.

Am down for racing with limits i just don't think it should be decided by the game it self but by whose holding the race.

Quote :

And we shouldn't even think about making the engines of streetcars editable.

why? its common practice where i come from.

Quote :

because in many forms of motorsport the engine reg's are tight enough that the majority of teams have the same or very similar engines, there just isnt the scope there for changing much if anything.

could u give some examples, not trying to call u out or anything just wanna know.

Quote :

I really hope that engine setup doesnt happen at least before the other setup pages are fixed and made more realistic, and if it does happen its not like the infintesimle setups we have now.

LFS has a LONG way to go before the existing setup system is made more realistic, without thinking about adding engine parameters.

i said that earlier, adding such a featue is a huge update and i rather see other stuff implemented and fixed first

Quote :

You talk about modifying the engine of the XF Gti above, IRL many forms of racing that would include a car type like the XF Gti would have extremely limiting factors on the engine, you wouldnt be able to just change the displacement, or add a turbo, and if you could everyone would do it and there would be no advantage, back to square one.

if u look at the SCCA honda-cup (i am comparing Civcs to GTI) u wil see that the rules do call for "The Honda Cup is designed to provide an exciting, highly competitive, Honda-specific racing venue. Technical innovation is strongly encouraged while close racing will be ensured by a minimum of easily met and enforced restrictions. " but if u read all the rules u will see alot of stuff is unretricted.

http://www.honda-cup.com/ Click on competitors and u will be proivided with the links

Quote :

edit : sounds like you have been used to playing GT4 TBH, the way GT4 works is the same way your train of thought is thinking, chuck as much horsepower as you can at a car to win a race, IRL it just aint like that.

My whole point is not win by horsepower but win by strategy. I for one don't think most horsepower always wins. with an engine and suspension design there are alot of factors to prevent that from happening. when u add engine design u can bring different cars into the same class like XRT and GTi.

Quote from newage :

imo, we have lfstweak, if lfstweak suport all cars and have mor options, that question is answered...

yea but we can't race it online and LFStweak allows any parameters. plus to keep the balance we would some sort of engine damage

Quote :

negligable and perhaps even harmful to it

could u elaborate on the negative side


to me the benefits of a more dynamic gameplay far outweight any negatives i know of.

for me this is sorta how i figure it would work
example there is a race

Track:Blackwood
Laps:30
Cars GTi, XRG,XRT, And AWD car RB something can't remember the name
Conditions:300 HP limit
my Strategy: try and get Faster Corner Exit Speed Plan overtakes after Corner Exits utilizing lightweight for acceleration.

given this situation Everyone is going to pick a different car to start with mostly based on Drivetrain and weight.

Continuing with the senario i would pick the GTi, beucase its lightweight. although its lightweight althought its light weight it still has it disadvantages such as its FWD understeer tracktion problems.

i tested it and i seem to use 2.5% of gas with the Stock GTi on every lap so that would be 75% the whole race in the stock form. that means anything i might have to make the engine thats is competitive but easy on the gas.(or drive in a more concervitive manner if possible)
summing it up so far

Engine:Need a competive motor that consumes < X of gas per lap
Suspension:needs to be able to alow me Exit corners fastthis is where it begins
going to have to be vague with this cause i
don't know the GTi Stock stuff so yea
Valve train
valve timming: [as in duration] need something thats going to be power in the middle to top end
Cam timming: [as in advance or retard when valves open] retarded for topend power
Head Specification
Port size: keep same
number of Valves: 4
Block SPecification
Bore :
Stroke: allowed me to rev to 9500 RPM
Displacement bump it up too 1.8 liters
Compression ratio something like 8:1
ECU Parameters
ignition timming
Fuel maps
Boost maps: would have very mild boost up to 75% throttle then someonething like 10-14 PSI full throttle
Forced induction
Super chargers
turbos: would use Smaller turbo with a AR ratio that alowed for a very quick spool

did this off the top of my head
as u can see i tried my best to set it up for my strategy i was vague in certain areas didn't want to over complicate this post more than neccesary.

Quote :

As to limitations in race serries, it not just about saftey, infact I would say it less than 50% about safty and that limitations are imposed more to make the racing competitive. e.g. In the V8Supercars the whole serries is about creating an exciting but relatively equal field of cars creating some very close and hotly contested racing. Before this type of racing here in Australia they had Touring Cars but what happened with them is that one manufaturer would dominate for great lengths of time (years even decades) and that detracted from the racing (bit like F1 ) What they have created with the V8Supercar serries is great for the spectators and drivers alike, as it always gives great action on the track and gives each driver/team much more chance than they normally would have to do well, although at the end of the day the ones with the biggest budgets still tend to win most often, but not always

yea am on the same page with u. but sometimes when i see one manufacturer dominating i think its well deserved. if i went out raced and got my whooped i would anylyze my defeat, and hit the drawing board. deffinetly need limits though.

tristancliffe
yea thats sorta what i had in mind although u did take it to the half way extreame. i do agree with u when u say if its not done right don't do it. one of the hardest parts in implementing such a system is when to stop in terms of factors to be considered. there would have to be point where you draw the line and say am not simulating that. to determine that line would take some carefull planning. it does look like a hit and miss sorta thing but i think it could work.



What i meant by its not hard is the actually comcept of it. example how combustion works isnt hard to understand but when u get into thermodynamics and all that is where it gets complex. i wasn't trying to give the impression you can google something and next day ready to design a a engine and then build it in real life.

Quote :

I saw a few in another thread suggesting that there should actually be less setup options in LFS to make it more realistic, and I think I'm in that camp too. Not to mention the fact that it'd make pick-up racing easier and IMHO that's what LFS does best.

Yea alot of the limitation in real life i realize were added for safety reasons. i don't watch nascar but was passing by speed and saw some guys tire blow up. u can imagine at 200mph thats a problem, what had happned was they lowered the tire preasure in the backright tire for grip but it backfired for them. turns out nascar has a minimum tire preasure limit for the front tires but not for the back. that just one example of why limitations are there. i think if limitations inf LFS were to be imposed it should be done by the person whos holding the Race. would be alot easier to implement i think

i think i should elaborate on what i mean by building engines
Valve train
Head specifications
Block specifications
ECU parameters
Forced induction

Valve train
valve timming
Cam timming
maybe some sort or option for VCT VVT
Head Specification
Port size
number of Valves
Block SPecification
Bore
Stroke
Displacement
Compression ratio
ECU Parameters
ignition timming
Fuel maps
Boost maps
rev limits
Forced induction
Super chargers
turbos


if u googled anyone of those u would be well educated to change values in anyone of those areas. (not in real life though) One of the good things about engines is there is ussually a trade off. so one upgrade will have a negative effect. might seem like alot for someone but if your on a team am sure there would be one person on there who was quite educated on the matter and could design a engine for the team. I myself am not a mechanic or a engine freak or anything (actually computer science major) and i do know quite a bit. it isnt hard stuff

can deff understand where you guys are coming from. it might of seem as though i over exsagerated Build your own engine. i don't think it would be more complicated than making a setup.

yea of course i understand some people want to race, and not bother with engine performance. But too me there seems to be only one road to victory in this game for a give track.

Suppose i said i was going to hold a competion with the winner getting 1000 dollars.

Competion
10 laps on blackwood in current LFS version, winner would be determined by points system

35 points for fastest 10 laps
50 points if u have the fastest lap
100 points if u break a world record for the track
and points based on split fastest split times and such
it would have to be done online and u get one shot Etc

as u can see there may be several different ways to win such a competion.
to me RL racing is sort of like this. Many different ways to win and its up to the driver execute the plan.

I think if some of us actually went and researched a little about engines we would see thats setting up one isnt as complicated as one would think.

I know these sort of things, Engine mods tunning and tweaking, have been suggested to death. But I don't think its been fairly discussed before. Usually what happens is someone suggest it and 20 people give reasons why it should not be added.

Now my suggestion is to be able to make your engine. Am talking the whole sha bang.

Valve train
Head specifications
Block specifications
ECU parameters
Forced induction


Too me its seems very hypocritical to call for realism and want to race around with the same engine in everyones car. In reality no race team has the same engine.



Why add such a feature?
1. For one its more realistic
2.Dynamic Strategy. when a race teams builds a engine & suspension they have a set plan as to how there gonna grasp victory. To win a race you usually focus on a few specific areas whether it is avg cornering speed, entry speed, exit speed, straight away speed, consistency, Etc. these areas would be selected on what your strengths and weaknesses are and the track it self. With Lfs just having the ability to change suspension, you are constricted on strategies


Number 2 i think is the sole reason why it should be added. But as i have read in other post there are a lot of people with legitimate reasons as to why it should not be added. I plan on giving a rebuttal for some of the big reasons i found in previous post.

Quote :

What is better... You win the race knowing all the cars have the same performance and its your skill as a driver that got the win or the fact you have more credits (Or have found a cheat/hack) so you have all the best bits and you only win because you have the faster car.
~WOZ

This is a good argument but i have to disagree. First off in real life this isnt the case all cars arent the same some are better than others in different areas. if as a simulator your highest priority is realism you should just have to deal with it because thats how it is in real life.

Quote :

but modifying the engine is a no no to me personally. Partly because i would be clueless where to start, and secondly because it would give too much of an advantage to those knowledgeable in engines.
~Stellios

I see a lot of people agree with this one. Don't understand why. Suspension setups arent exactly common knowledge. It seems rather selfish to deny a feature for the simple reason you don't understand it.

Quote :

If this stuff ended up in LFS it'd turn into Gran Turismo/NFSU/Midnight Club, where the most modded car wins everything - in fact you need all the hot bits to win at all, the further you go - and then I think loads of people would quit playing. LFS is a driving sim and demands that your skill get you across the line first, not your after-market accessories.
~Hankstar

isnt that how it is in real life though. With that said if u strap a turbo onto the GTi the skill level needed to drive it isnt going to get lower. If anything Its going to take more driving skills to keep it on the road and control wheel spin. Adding such features to Lfs would call for a class system for the cars. Class system like real life

Quote :

Fair racing would go out the window and we'd have to endure all the silly questions and confusion about which tuning is best for which car on which track.
~Gunn

isnt this already the case with suspension setups

Quote :

LFS is about racing, and racing is about skills, car control, using the brain, estimating the right speed in the corners etc, not about holding the N2O key down. That's how EA "racing" series shows it. Who wants moddded engine with N2O, airslamming turbo, precise set fuel mixture and timing, then he have to look for another game.
~MadCatX

I feel racing is about the car just as much as it is about the driver. When a race team shows up for a race there two things they need to win, Car & a driver. When a team shows up for a race there arent coming for a good race and to have fun. Above all there coming to win

Quote :

The trouble is that suspension tuning is necessary to allow each driver, and their respective styles, to get the most of the car. I can't drive some of Flotch's setups becuase they are too weird, but I can drive, say, Csimpoks.
tristancliffe

I feel this is quite true for suspension and engine but not to the same extent you have for suspensions. One of the areas Lfs suffers and fails in comparison to a game like Gran Turismo 4, is its controls. To me were never really driving the same car. We all have different controls. Some use game pads, wheels, keyboard, mouse. With a game like GT4 everyone is either using the DFP or a controller. I think this is where the individuality in Suspension setups comes from in lfs.

Quote :

However, with engine tuning, for a given track, there is one 'ultimate' configuration. Anyone running the wrong boost, ignition timing or whatever will be at a disadvantage to someone not running 'ultimate'. What does that mean? Well, eventually, everyone will run the same engine maps at each track, thus making the tuning bit useless. To start with it might be great while everyone finds the ultimate engine setup, but only for a few weeks. Therefore the programming work needed to make this happen would be wasted.
tristancliffe

there can never be one ultimate setup. We all may have different views on how we would tackle a race plus an engine must really complement its suspension so there should be lots of variations.

Quote :

In orginized racing it's not about who has the better car, it about putting drivers in very similar vehicles with a defigned performance range and letting them prove who is the better driver, not who has the better car. LFS is a Racing Simulator, as such it is designed to simulate the compitition between driver's skill.
Gimpster

i do believe it is also about “who is the better driver” but in organized racing the better driver docent decide the win. many other factors do.
Nascar- it could be about pit times
Formula-pit strategy, car design
Rally-whose cars can survive the longest(they really abuse those things)


all in all it docent really matter who is right or wrong here. Adding such a feature as building your engine is a big upgrade. I don't expect scarwen to come here and be like this is what i got to work on. Before a system like this is implemented there are a several other things that really need to be added and fixed. Tire physics brake fade to name a few. I still do think such a feature needs to be added. though if it were to be added it would be far off i see no harm in discussing it.



I was not trying to insult anyone, am just trying to have a nice discussion on the topic with out someone calling someone else rice and what not.