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It's a racing simulator, where everyone has the same car (or same class of car at the very most).

Are you saying its impossible, for someone to have two different engines with different characteristics in the same class?

NEW YORK FTW!!!! lol i don't even watch footbal

they are different levels of street racing, and its prob going to differ from country to country.

for example where i am, you'll see 3 different types of street racing

Type where someone rolls up next to you and u end up racing down some street, or on the highway where your dipping in and out of cars.

Type where you go to a certain spot looking for a race

type where you organize a race with someone for money or something.

If you go out looking for a race you tend not to do it in a place where there are other people. for that reason i think its only retarded when u do it in a place where u can hurt someone not involved.

Maybe you can put the oil bottle in a Giant Zip lock bag. not sure how big the oil bottle is.

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Do I go on a 20 hour rant about other variables you don't care about? Be that as it may, you HAVE to care about them to get the desired function. Why do you, when discussing programming, go on the same rants about other aspects of the programming that the other person hadn't considered? It's because they NEED to consider it.

i would not go so far as to say they "NEED" more like "really should" all depends on the situation you can satisfy

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I don't give a monkeys if you didn't know or don't care about the vast complexity of the original suggestion. But the fact is it IS a complex scenario, and without proper attention paid you won't learn anything.

i think its really subjective wether or not you'll learn something. i doubt LFS will ever teach you something you didn't already know.
for someone who knows substantially less, they might learn a great deal. Now am not saying his scenario of plugging in variables from his car will net him results that are actually useful. His suggestion at heart was to be able to edit variables that give the cars their characteristics IE Cog and all that lalalalala

@mikespeed
i get where you were coming from with the idea.

The problem with Tristan is, it seems he can't think on the fundamental level. I have that problem sometimes, when someone asks me a programming related question its hard to just give a answer and convey importance of certain aspects without giving a 20 hour lecture. same with him he can't discuss spring rates without talking about a 100 other variables that you might not even know about much less care about.
so while your idea sounds good, to him he just sees all the unaccounted variables and dismisses it.

Jeff you have to realise the type of people your arguing with. most of them are going to agree with what ever the developers do, in the mind the developers can't do no wrong. plus some suffer from elitist syndrome where they forget that this is just a game. they want the game as "hard" as possible so they can feel better about the lap time they just got.

i mean for god sake its just a game why do you care if the person you racing is using auto blip or throttle cut.

http://videos.streetfire.net/v ... 339-b6f5-98aa00fe0ac1.htm

talks about clutches and heating and clutches in general

although clutches and brakes might use the same material the physics that governs them is a little different

Quote from JTbo :

I don't buy even half second that clutch would be scripted, clearly it is simulated, when there is slip, there is heat and more pressure and rpm causes more heat than less rpm and less pressure.

when i sat scripting i maen very loosely simulated. some simple formula
example

X amount of slip creates Y amount of heats
Z amount of clutch grip is dependent on Y
more heat = less grip
of course there is one or two other varibles that affect the execution, like a variable to decide how fast it heats up or something like that

thats pretty much lfs clutch "simulation" while this works when you drive it like you intend it too. it fails when you try and experiment.

the problem here is that there just too many generalizations. in real life the physics is little more complex. in addition in real life clutches are different that is they have specifications that give them characteristics.

IE
clutch material
different materials have different grip.

clutch material area
actual area prob dosent effect the grip but it prob has effect on heating and heat decipation. this is maybe why f1 clutch are small(for weight saving) but as a result can't hold alot of heat

pressure plate strength

etc
i personally felt that this sort of stuff should have been simulated. and i don't really get the feeling its taking into account. also lets not forget the physics of how they interact with each other. these are the components that give the clutches their feel so their interactions needed to be simulated prob

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You are obviously shifting very poorly if you get one second of slip inbetween any gear, you must be flooring the throttle too eairly before the clutch has even remotely grabed.

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now i know if i switch slower waiting till the rpm drop and it too grip before getting back on the throttle its not a problem at all.

you might of missed the point i was trying to make, point is i don't think a 1.3 liter engine can create that amount of torque.


@woz i think there a few different arugments but i feel they all stem from the fact that the clutch simulation is wrong. some people feel it heats up to fast, some feel it has to much grip, some feel it dosent have enough grip. this is a characteristic of scripted behavior. it works perfect in one area and dead wrong in another.

i personally don't have a problem with the clutch when am racing. i understand the scripted nature of the clutch. what bothers me is the way he choose to implement clutch.

you don't write the outcome, you write the simulation to see its own outcome.

too me its similar to the fake force feed back effects in ISI games that everyone hates because its a cannned effect. so how is this scripted clutch behavior a step in the right direction.

no one needs to make a video because its clear that the so called clutch simulation isn't really a sim at all. i just can't get over that you guys are actually think that its ok. reminds me off when u guys argue of how some aspect of another sim is bad because of hows it done.

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and no one that I am aware of is trying to say that the clutch in LFS is exactly like real life or in some circumstances even remotely like real life

fact still remains, its incorrect and it should not be that way.

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What the suporters of the clutch are saying is that it is a step in the right direction and better than not having the clutch modeled at all. It works effectively in race conditions and that is what counts.

i guess the thought of improving it is a step in the right direction. but the manner in which it was implemented was about 2 steps backwards

i personally i could of pulled away PRE X10 without going above 1500rpms. the only feel i ever get from the clutch is how strong the pressure plate is.

my first experience with the new clutch was me taking the 1.3 liter hatch and shifting fast from first to second and there was about what felt like 1 second of slipping as the clutch struggled to slow the engine down. this of course created some heat so 2nd to 3rd was worse. so by the time you run through all the gears once or twice the clutch is done, because once it terms just a little red its useless. now i know if i switch slower waiting till the rpm drop and it too grip before getting back on the throttle its not a problem at all.

what really bothers me is the lack of any simulation, this is what attracted me to lfs in the first place. and to see the clutch aspect looked like it was shoehorned in over the span of a weekend after waiting so long for the patch. its dis hearting

can't beleive people actually think that the clutch in this game is any where near realistic. its not even so much of a simulation so much as it is scripted. thats why it only works when you drive it the way the developer intended you too.

i also see a lot of people talking about who it feels like there car and or how it doesn't. i mean not all clutches are the same the way they feel and act is dependent on their specification; size of friction material, weight, friction material it self, pressure plate springs. this is why some clutches can have tons of holding power, but can't take the abuse of lots of slipping.

i can't help but think if this was another sim that everyone would be on the developers case about canned effects.

To the original poster, you have to realize that you are dealing with live for speed fan boys, your not gonna win this argument.

Me personally, i enjoy both games equally, and while playing them i sometimes come across certain things that i know would not happen in real life(this happens more in GT4). but you know what it dosen't bother me when i way it all in. Considering Gt4 is running on hardware designed in the late 90s i think they did a good job. you could go on and on with the stuff wrong with the gt but one thing i felt they do better than LFS is Balance.


LFS is just all over the place in terms of design great in some places and just horrible in others. one example, the drag strip, look how long its been in the game yet it didn't function like a real drag drip. i mean someone actually made a insim app that actually simulated a drag strip better the actual game

I would imagine Smoking, and second hand Smoking are far worse

Quote from tristancliffe :

What does a grinding clutch sound like? I've never heard one (and I've not exactly been devoid of cars in my life).

you know hes probably talking about the dogteeth engaging when synchos aren't working as they should.

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I very much doubt it's as simple a clicking the 'surround sound' tickbox in OpenAl or DS (or whatever Scawen uses).

relative to everything else in the game its quite simple

Quote from tristancliffe :

Why would that help? If you can't tell left from right, how are you going to suddenly magically tell front from back (without visuals telling you)?

And I SERIOUSLY doubt Scawen uses a proprietary sound system like OPENAL (if that's what it is).

well you might be able to hear someone coming up from behind though u might not be able to tell which side.
OpenAl is a sound API like directsound. and its free. i would be in the same bag as you if i thought it would be a long process to include it. but i don't.

the whole can't differentiate from the left to right thing is sorta already in LFS. i honestly can't tell if a car is approaching from the left or right now. but what would be nice would be the back to front noise.

Implementing it should not be hard especially if he uses OPENAL

Quote from SpikeyMarcoD :

What is a track Ian? To race really all you need is a layout (autocross). The rest is just scenery, while nice and all it has nothing to to with a track. This of course means by no means that more is always welcome, but to state we have 4 tracks is too simple, we have 4 sceneries.

Wow Just wow, that has to be the weakest argument for the lack of tracks

Think people are forgetting that this is a game. what difference is it going to make to the gameplay? i could understand if the stiffness of the chassis was effected. then it would make sense.

when i first started playing the game. i thought ok only 4 real tracks, but hey its 3 people. I thought maybe well i guess instead of waiting until its complete they can release as they go. 2 years later virtually the same content. I am getting the feeling that they won't be any new cars or tracks in S2.

I think the main problem is not necessarily the lack of content, in the form of new tracks and cars. The fact that there have been no updates to the physics or in other parts relevant to game play, in a year and a half. A year ago i would of thought there would of been a lot more improvement by now.

If one person is doing the programming and another is doing the modeling and tracks. i don't think is unreasonable for the team to release a track or a car.

i don't think its too much to ask for like a WIP letting the community know what your working on.