What car were you driving? Couldn't tell from the camera angles.

Nice... re-subbing into another 3 month to try the NTM updates.

Just finished playing GT5 back to back with Enthusia. Track was Tsukuba. Cars were Mk2 MX5 (Enthusia's star car), Nissan 350Z (more powerful RWD), and NSX-R (MR representative).

A few comparisons for fun...

Graphics: Well, what do you think...? And Enthusia looked particularly bad without the help of a CRT TV to nicely blur away the low res. The surprise is how accurate proportioned Enthu's car models are. The MX5 for example is better than GT5's IMO.

Car Sounds: GT5 is technically better but Enthu's cars seem to sound more true to life and more characterful. Extra points as well considering Enthu is almost 6 years older.

Force Feedback: I give it to Enthu. It feels more natural and corresponds more naturally to what the car is doing. There's no weirdness. Reminds me of LFS a lot. GT5's FF is more lively but doesn't communicate oversteer as well. GT5 has weirdness when it comes to steering-wheel-returning-to-centre-after-countersteering-for-oversteer, as well as other weirdness that I don't want to bother typing out.

A word about throttle response: Enthusia has horrible throttle response. Nothing seems to happen until about 75% making every car feel like it has some sort of turbo lag. It's a major major major buzz kill.

Before I say anything about how the cars drive, I need a bit more time with both. Enthusia is stacking up pretty well so far.

Last edited by Mattesa, Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:47. Reason : no verdict for sound yet

Going to go drive them back to back once I get a chance. RWD road cars, no mods. Tsukuba circuit.

Damn it, I'm having an absolute blast with GT5.

Throttle balancing does work when oversteer, it's different in terms of timing and extent, but it's there.

On G25 I've turned my FF all the way down to 1, with "power steering" turned on. This minimizes the weird wall of resistance just off centre. The FF doesn't communicate subtle oversteer well like LFS/NKP/iR. When steering back into the the turn (after countersteer) the steering effort goes to zero which is odd. Otherwise it's sufficient.

Different cars handle differently... they really do... and it's fun trying different cars. This is a revelation to me because everything felt dead in previous GT's.

The Infiniti G35 does sort of sound like that. And so does the Mk.1/2 MX5. Good job sampling the sounds.

Yes - this is as good and a better drive than Enthusia.

LOL at focus on better hybrid simulation.

The green agenda infects everything.

Does Spa look a bit clean? I mean the curbs and runoff I expected to have more tire marks. Anyway, beautifully done track. I don't have the DLC so I'm driving it through the seasonal but it's a deffo buy.

After-honeymoon report on the game: I've been totally taken in. Caught myself spending lots of time in between drives just poking around and drooling at the premium cars. Enjoying it lots... and the anal things don't bother me as much now.

I feel the same way about LFS. It feels that most natural, the car behaves logically and everything just seems to "make sense" dynamically. Obviously the production values are a few generations of ideas behind and the visceral feeling of driving isn't there. ( And the road cars ARE too easy to slide... the tires lack 'bite'. The FBM is a better road car analog when it comes to feeling the load up of the tires leading up to breaking free to oversteer and the snappy consequences. )

NKP and the console SIMs do the visceral feeling thing well.

Last edited by Mattesa, Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:02.

Quote from jtw62074 :

... check out the attachment. It's something I made for one of the iRacing forum discussions on this...

Just caught up with reading latest posts. I'm understanding what you are saying and have no further arguments (for now anyway). Thank you for taking the time to post such thorough responses.

Quote from jtw62074 :

If it was engine braking, the behavior would manifest itself right away at small slip angles rather than just large ones. In the first part of the video where I'm blipping and releasing the throttle, the car straightens up when the throttle is released (understeer yaw moment). The trouble is that this fundamental behavior reversed course once the slip angle grew enough. The understeer moment decreased, passed through 0, and then changed sign.

There's one key bit about the final blip that is different... your steering input. You straighten the wheel whereas in the others you keep it pointed into the turn.

Not exactly sure how that might skew things, but induced understeer was something that was thrown around a while back. Could the constant steering input be inducing understeer?

Quote from jtw62074 :

I'll try to explain it in more detail later. Here's the video illustrating it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... DskLoU9NMCUmLAQOK5xmabvji

I don't have a problem with this happening in the rain on a near neutral car, but in the dry this is a no-no I'm afraid.

That clears things up. Wasn't what I had in mind and definitely looks awkward.

Quote from jtw62074 :

I got involved in a really long thread on this issue at the iRacing forums. The thing that I was pointing out was that the yaw moment in steady state cornering was pretty strong understeer. As the rear slip angles increased, the understeer moment decreased slightly, then decreased more rapidly at higher slip angles, and eventually reversed directions. I.e, understeer moment turned into oversteer moment which should not generally happen.

I'm not quite understanding the issue here, so I'm going to prod at your post a bit of you don't mind:

steady state cornering was pretty strong understeer.

- Okay...

As the rear slip angles increased, the understeer moment decreased slightly, then decreased more rapidly at higher slip angles

- Isn't this expected? As the rear slips more than the front you get less understeer?

and eventually reversed directions. I.e, understeer moment turned into oversteer moment which should not generally happen.

- It seems to make sense though? From steady state you increase speed leading to higher slip in the rears (definition of oversteer?) then eventually gets to a point where the car is yawing into the direction of the turn.

Can you explain what situations and how to replicate what you're talking about in game?

Well I'm sure they are enthusiasts, just not the type concerned enough with the nitty gritty of how cars drive. With all that budget you would think they could have someone with the experience to stumble upon these pretty glaring issues.

I would've been very happy with GT5 being Enthusia+. But somehow... it isn't. Boggles my mind.

Money spent, time to rant.

Two big things for me right now... and both are physics related:

• When oversteering, you cannot settle the car using throttle.
  

It should be like this: If oversteer and assuming proper steering work....

(1) a lot more throttle = more oversteer and spin
(2) a little bit of throttle = settle down and recover
(3) no throttle = spin or maybe a tank slapper


Number 2 does not work. The only way to recover is to back way off. Maintenance throttle in oversteer has no effect. This is such a crucial thing that its omission is really ruining the game for me.

• The cars don't visibly roll and dive and squat? Is the whole weight transfer not modeled or something?
  

Oh well?

Some intensive Google-Youtube-forum research yielded lots of accusations but no definitive proof that there is anything broken with the way the cars in GT5 behave when stock. You know... like the kinda of complete garbage lack of physics that GT4 was. That YT video of a Caterham around SPA a few posts up looked pretty nuanced in the way the rear kicked out.

My first and only time with GT5 was a year ago competing for fastest lap with a buddy around Tsukuba with an M3 on a G27. I recall being surprised that it didn't drive like a steaming pile of crap.

So I'm leaning towards grabbing the game after in-listing some friends and family to get some value out of the hardware...

Quote :

The Assetto Corsa physics engine has been designed and coded from the ground up...

physics engine like this begs to be used with officially licensed content: As such, Assetto Corsa will include renditions of international circuits, global car brands, racing prototypes, historic cars, single seaters and some of the most iconic cars ever built...

Hmm... so it's not NKP. And... no fantasy cars. Interesting...

Hit the nail on the head I dont give a rats ass about the career/game aspects of GT... never did.

No G25 support is a definite deal breaker on FM4.

Last edited by Mattesa, Fri, 23 Dec 2011 17:04.

Yeah it's the itch to drive some real everyday cars that has got me going. Almost on the verge of breaking out Enthusia to get a fix.

I do have NKP and dabble in ocassional iRacing when they have special offers... but there's just not a lot of fun relatable cars. It's a long winter until next track days, plus you only get to drive your own car... guess what I'm saying is that a good robust realistic SIM is still a great why to pretend to drive some nice cars fast.

Tough decision.

Last edited by Mattesa, Fri, 23 Dec 2011 15:20.

So I have a chance to get a PS3 30% discounted... do I buy it just for GT5? It's really the only thing I'll be using it for (and maybe Street Fighter).

Are the physics glaringly broken? I've only read of the reverse ride height issue.

PS3 + GT5 can pay for two track days next year....

Hmm, wonder if there are any chances for updates.

Real RWD road cars on NKP is something I've always wanted.

Really interested in this and really interested to hear more opinions about how the 458 drives before I go ahead and buy the thing.

Did some google lurking and found someone saying...

• Braking issue, stopping distances longer than real life
  
• Car too easy to drive
  

What version of NKP is it based on? Does it include the latest changes which have made NKP a million times better to drive?

Quote from lvlo :

You should delete "...\My Documents\netKar PRO" folder too. If this will not help - I'm out of ideas.

This worked! Now I can try the other cars!

And... It seems I got what I asked for...

Quote from Mattesa :

Tried the Osella for the first time. Wow. I can't help but feel that this is the way the FF1600 and FF1800 should drive as well. That is... light, low inertia, oversteering any time that you're not keep the rear planted with the throttle.

I can't try the FF's since they're not working for me, but hopefully they've changed to be more like the Osella.

The FF now loves to get sideways and all slidey. But it's extremely easy to slide, hold, recover. Gotta go do more laps.

All in all vast, vast, vast improvement over the last version in the area of eliminating of understeer from the cars.

Tried the Osella for the first time. Wow. I can't help but feel that this is the way the FF1600 and FF1800 should drive as well. That is... light, low inertia, oversteering any time that you're not keep the rear planted with the throttle.

I can't try the FF's since they're not working for me, but hopefully they've changed to be more like the Osella. In the past I've always felt them to be unconvincing in the way that they sluggishly lose/regain grip and seem to be massively understeering compared to videos you see of them online.

Quote from The Moose :

Completely clean install? Old Mydocuments/netKar pro folder removed before installing?

It was a fresh install with reactivation too. There appears to be other folks reporting something similar on the official forums as well unfortunately.

Seems to be a bug where only the new Vintage R works...trying to load other cars causing some weird behaviour. Was hoping to drive the other cars to compare how the new tire model changes improve things.