Yeah, I don't get the whole "F08 is too hard to handle to be allowed online." mentality.
Should we lose all the cars in the game except the XR GT? No lag problems, fewer unskilled (or unpracticed) driver problems. It's a golden world in the one car sim.
Sure, I see a lot of races online with people struggling to keep the F08 wheels down. You know what? Great! That's what they should be doing if it interests them. Pass out setups and get in the fray.
We have spectator mode in LFS. With it I have recieved and given excellent training. I have decided whether or not to stay on a server and race.
I have had so many excellent F08 races online there is no point in trying to count them.
Can you say "leagues"?
Should we lose all the cars in the game except the XR GT? No lag problems, fewer unskilled (or unpracticed) driver problems. It's a golden world in the one car sim.
Sure, I see a lot of races online with people struggling to keep the F08 wheels down. You know what? Great! That's what they should be doing if it interests them. Pass out setups and get in the fray.
We have spectator mode in LFS. With it I have recieved and given excellent training. I have decided whether or not to stay on a server and race.
I have had so many excellent F08 races online there is no point in trying to count them.
Can you say "leagues"?
I don't know why I am motivated to disagree so strongly with this slogan. But I am. I get a picture of a menu with little icons of Alonso and Raikonnen and you drag and drop them on a grid and click "Race!" and twenty minutes later you get a list of the finishing order.
LFS is online racing. Nothing about the racing is simulated. It's real. The cars and tracks are simulated. The physics. But the racing is racing. I actually race alot in real life. Skateboarding every weekend in the summer, and snowboarding in the winter. Karts when ever possible. I know the mindset, the preparation, the race face.... LFS online is racing. Period. Not simulation.
That being said, I can't believe it took so long to come up with "My other car is a ... " That is so brilliantly obvious. Every car junky that sees that on a bumper sticker is going straight to the website. Just park in the general parking lot at the historics at Laguna and watch the race fans become LFS converts.
When Gunn mentioned cornering technique I thought that was pretty squarely exlplained as part of line in the rating system. So that's where I put that. Also, consistency is a tough one. On an empty track I can go 10th for 10th, lap after lap. But factor in nerves and the general confusion of trying to outwit, or avoid being outwitted, and the game changes. So racecraft certainly effects consistency to some extent. I'm going to rate my consistency on a clear track and adjust racecraft to reflect what I lose when in a pack.
Line: 6 No matter how hard I try, quick is just not in me.
Consitancy: 9.5 If it weren't *racing* I'd be doing pretty good.
Racecraft: 5 I am often ashamed when I leave servers. Let me say a global "Sorry" right here and now. I intend to change this. Have been as high as 8 at times.
Overall: 6.8
Line: 6 No matter how hard I try, quick is just not in me.
Consitancy: 9.5 If it weren't *racing* I'd be doing pretty good.
Racecraft: 5 I am often ashamed when I leave servers. Let me say a global "Sorry" right here and now. I intend to change this. Have been as high as 8 at times.
Overall: 6.8
OK. This is not a proper attitude for a software company. Especially considering there is only one guy. I'm shocked.
Imagine what would happen if a few hundred Microskunk employees adopted this kind of attiude. I shudder to think....
or maybe
Live for Speed: Where wife is secondary
LFS is not an Online Racing Simulator.
It's getting very close to being an Online *Driving* Simulator.
It has been, for some time, Online Racing *Software*.
There is nothing simulated about the *racing*. It's 100% real. Head to head, man to man. Period.
hmmm... very interesting. You realize I now have to go to the skid pad and waste more time.
I like the hexagon. I use that on some mental level. It seems like LFS has more braking realism than accelerating realism. I can't really tell where weight transfer would be wrong though. It seems more like tires at this point. I feel like I'm reading the wieght transfer well enough, just not the foot transfer.
So.... it's an RS is it? I've owned more than a few IROCs and Z-28s, and you can certainly get the rear around at any point. For a brick they sure work great, eh? Not the ideal sports car, but as fun as American front engine gets. I was getting pretty good at rolling 360s in my 92 before I sold it.
I like the hexagon. I use that on some mental level. It seems like LFS has more braking realism than accelerating realism. I can't really tell where weight transfer would be wrong though. It seems more like tires at this point. I feel like I'm reading the wieght transfer well enough, just not the foot transfer.
So.... it's an RS is it? I've owned more than a few IROCs and Z-28s, and you can certainly get the rear around at any point. For a brick they sure work great, eh? Not the ideal sports car, but as fun as American front engine gets. I was getting pretty good at rolling 360s in my 92 before I sold it.
If that was in response to my post, I suggest you reread it assuming that I understand the traction circle. You may come away with a different meaning. If not, sorry.
Not the best explaination. Let's start over:
Basically, imagine Grip is a circle. The point in the middle is 0% of your tractive potential. The perimiter is 100%. Outside the circle is where tractions starts falling off again. Down and up represent forward/rearward traction. Left and right, lateral. If you are using Full throttle in *exactly* a straight line, you are at the top of the circle, or beyond it if in an FO8, or closer to the middle in a weak car. If you move to the left (steer left) then you would now go towards the side (not neccesarily outside) the circle (and therefore be outside Grip, hence slide).
But I do get your point.
Sleep? Bah! I've got LFS!
International Racing Software
I'm an Aston Cadet
FF? We don't need no stinkin' FF!
(But we'll take it anyway.)
NO SHIFT+R!
Definite Limits Racing
Scavier ltd.
My kitchen needs work. Aint gonna get it.
The world is my skid pad.
Racing The World from my living room.
Scawen is the best friend I've never met.
International Racing Software
I'm an Aston Cadet
FF? We don't need no stinkin' FF!
(But we'll take it anyway.)
NO SHIFT+R!
Definite Limits Racing
Scavier ltd.
My kitchen needs work. Aint gonna get it.
The world is my skid pad.
Racing The World from my living room.
Scawen is the best friend I've never met.
...and I've forgotten all of them already.
I was just posting that I thought it's not such a bad idea to use your name. (Unless of course, if it makes you uncomfortable.) Because if I see someone with a "Scawen is the best friend I've never met." T-Shirt, I immediately know we're in the same club. If someone sees me and thinks, "Who the heck is Scawen?" they may ask. Seeing the URL is one thing. After having a chat with someone with great enthusiasm, that URL is going to stick in memory much more effectively.
I was just posting that I thought it's not such a bad idea to use your name. (Unless of course, if it makes you uncomfortable.) Because if I see someone with a "Scawen is the best friend I've never met." T-Shirt, I immediately know we're in the same club. If someone sees me and thinks, "Who the heck is Scawen?" they may ask. Seeing the URL is one thing. After having a chat with someone with great enthusiasm, that URL is going to stick in memory much more effectively.
Did it come around right at 1.10Gs, or after a your foot had been down a while?
I always attributed that to torque building up because at first you can put your foot down a lot. That is going to stress the tire more longitudinaly (izzat a word?), spending more of your traction capacity. Then, you hit a point in the power curve where the engine puts out more. With your foot down that far, you really don't know how much you're giving. You're going just as fast, or faster, but it doesn't seem like it because the acceleration is not a quick and the engine sounds like it's not working as hard. So, higher cornering speed + more foot + power coming on when you don't expect + too much foot = snap oversteer. I feel much more comfortable "on the pipe" in most corners. The tires just seem to be more sensitive to the foot that way.
But maybe I'm just making up excuses to rationalize my translation so I can get around lap after lap.
Very well said Fonnybone. Informative too.
But leads me to the question, "Tuning? Why not just click on the next car up in the garage?"
But leads me to the question, "Tuning? Why not just click on the next car up in the garage?"
I've seen this 4 or 5 times online since S2. Never offline though. Usually when I see it "AI" gets a time like 02.93 or some crazy thing.
I hate this one. I look in the mirror, can tell the guys is going to over commit to an overly bold move, so I give room to go side by side and the ass pushes me off track at exit. These clowns think they're passing, I'm sure of it. The end result is a position, so they believe they are great racers. It an unfortunate result of not actually having any ruling body. That's why these discussions and organizations like CRC are so important to this sport.
My personal opinion is that an outside pass is rather unconventional. That being the case, it is the outside passers responsibility to avoid incedent at all costs. Sometimes, it has to be done though. With care.
In the end, although it will be fairly costly, three monitors will be the best dang thing to hit online racing. For me, anyway.
I have a tendancy to sit until it's obviously clear. But... last night for instance, I looped it coming out of the chicken at SO Classic. I was ahead just enough that I couldn't get the car around before everyone got there but certainly had time to telepit. I stayed thinking I was sufficiently off the track - nose against the armco on the left. POW! Bad choice. Due to visiblilty, even if they had room, they didn't have time to plan. Fortunately everyone was really nice and we had many good races. (Thanks!)
That being said, I think it's a matter of where. Certainly use radar, mirrors, and lefty/righty looking before moving. Some places are better than others, and we *are* in fake life, we *can* teleport... no sense sitting where there is a guaranteed pile up.
I use that move all the time. I'm the guy trying to pass. I do not. Only if my nose is ahead of yours at turn in will I stay to make the move. But when it's the other guy, if I don't know him, I will give a lane or back out completely and let him run off or have the position. I can either get it back later or not. That's racing. To have crash free races, yes, give way. It's called dicing and it's a mindset. The more you know the people you are dicing with, the more you won't give way in that situation. With everyone in the same mindset, you competitor knows it's not enough to take the corner, and you turn in on your intended line and she backs off. That's the fun.
There is another saying in racing, "Passing is the craft of forcing the other driver to take a line they did not intend." Being a nutjob that people fear being T-Boned by is nothing more than petty bullying. It is disgraceful. Having my front wheels next to yours at the braking point and forcing you to realize you can't turn when you wanted to is legit. It's clean, it's obvious to you, it can be effective.
The chicken at Aston? I can't say no absolutely, but I have yet to see a situation that warrants a pass attempt at that corner. Not when both cars are on track at speed. I can't imagine how it would work.
I have a tendancy to wait until we're both up to speed. He didn't ask for dirty tires and if he sees me hounding and get's too excited and spins, then I've just caused more grief.
If it's a points race, I'm gone as soon as I can get going. With or without the other guy. I'll let the clerk of the course deal with the legality. And hope it was a legitimate mistake when I go to face the other driver after the race.
There are ways you know when the driver ahead is absorbed with the task at hand, or more aware of his surroundings. If there's a question in my mind, I'll make myself visible with a few feints before making a move. Sometimes, the other driver needs a little time to settle down after being startled into the realization they are sharing the track. I watch for that too.
I was just about to say, "Of course!" but the situation where he is dicing for 5th is very interesting. In a GP, yes. No question. I may be able to make up that lap. And he'll make up any time I cost his battle. If there's no chance to make the lap other than them taking each other out of the race, I'll be happy to practice patience.
My attitude has cost me a few races, but I'm cool with that.
Yes, and I think situations 2 through 5 are more frequent than they would be if there were no restarts. #1 as well, on a more personal level.
I don't mean this as a personal attack in any way. I don't mean it to sound as negative as it's going to, but it's going to...
I am so completely done with this argument. It's gotten totally out of hand. Yes! Of course we don't get G forces with the typical home sim setup! But that does not mean we can't feel them!!! A lot of sims have allowed for the feeling of Gs, and done a damn proper job of it too. LFS is at the top of that list. Once we get involved with the GUI/AUI/FUI, which is probably more a matter of seat time than anything else - besides horrendously bad programing - we subconsciously fill in the blanks and start to feel *everything*. That is exactly the reason we are narrowing in on what the problem is in LFS. It is a real problem, that can be felt due to the excellent feel provided by LFSs excellent interface. As far as sense of speed goes, I use less trackside markers in LFS than I've been able to in any other sim. Driving by feel, with flow, is more possible than ever.
The problem is in the tires.
And JeffR nailed a few things on the head. In my experience, you can run the racing slicks we use on karts at full wheelspin for the duration of their tread life with only a slightly noticable loss of grip. (Unfortunately the usual place you would drive with constant wheelspin, like concrete, doesn't offer up much grip in a proper racing line, so it's hard to tell how much the tires have lost. On the other hand, sometimes I drive a couple of laps aluminum-to-chromemoly-lock-sideways steering only with the right foot on asphalt because I think it's fun. When I decide to drive normal again the kart works very well. I can't tell a difference, but I'm about a 2 seconds a minute from the champions. In a kart, 2 seconds a minute is a career of practice and accuracy, and that skill that I don't yet have may be the difference in grip I'm missing.) Driving the tires like that will limit life however, to 6 or 10 minutes. Road tires, like the BFG T/A are insane once they overheat. They lose grip and it doesn't come back for a long time. You have to stop and let the car sit. I've never overheated a road tire in a road car, but in a race car it's almost too easy. As far as temps goes, it seem LFS has the race tire, road tire thing backwards. But my road experience far outweighs my track experience.
On racing slicks I've driven on drying tracks, through puddles big enough to splash my visor, gotten sideways in the water (because I think it's fun) and had commandable grip by the next corner. Unfortunately to this discussion, when ever I've put wheels in gravel, I've never followed that with rejoining the track. I've practiced in enough dusty parking lots to know that a wheel in dirt does compromise grip quite a bit, and it seems to be cumulative. Once or twice, no problem, the stuff scrubs off pretty quickly. (I wouldn't say more quickly than LFS, because while I can see the dirt linger in F9 view, the tires feel right. So I don't know. I can't argue with the way the dirt is now.) If you keep going through the dirt, it's like the tire eventually becomes made of the dirt and you've got nothing. Trying to burn it off doesn't seem to help. You just ruined a tire. Dirt is bad on racing slicks. On road tires, well... once again, it's never bothered me and I go from asphalt to dirt 80 times on my way to work, and 80 times on my way home. Granted, I'm usually only at 8 or 9/10ths, and never over that, but the Michelin LTX A/T doesn't seem to care either way. And I do spend a lot of energy experimenting with things like: sliding sidways on ashpalt - into downhill corner on camber - into dirt at exit off camber - over shoulder crown back onto asphalt. Then every permutation of that kind of thing that Hyde Park Rd. has to offer. There are at least 4 jumps in the middle of corners that land in either pavement or dirt, your choice.... You can see, I do spend a good deal of real time on street tires in dirt... Of course there is less grip in the dirt. That is adjusted for with anticipation. Once back on the black stuff there is then a time when the tires produce less grip. That time is very, very short. The street tires regain grip from dirt so fast it's hard to guage sometimes. I am almost always mentally prepared for the lessened grip to last longer than it really does and return of grip catches me by surprise frequently. (But I think that's fun too.) I am certainly missing that lateral "wall" the tires hit when they regain grip. At 10/10ths, I can understand, you've got nowhere to go but around. But when I know I've over shot and am going to put a wheel off no matter what, and pull up a bit and get the car back to 8 or 9/10ths asphalt limit, it shoud feel a certain way and it does not. That's that. It's not bad... it just is. That's the problem, lateral grip curves. I know that because I can really feel the car in LFS.
Water and street tires is different, but since no water in LFS I'll leave that but to say that I find dirt slightly more predictable.
Soooo.... would Blackwood Reversed then be... uh.... "Retarded"?
Cool. Now that you've got that sorted, beware that the word "Drifting" means two entirely different thing in this new world. You have to be very aware of context to not come away with the wrong idea whilst reading a post.
For the record, I will always use the word "drift" in the traditional and correct sense. To indicate getting ridiculously sideways just for giggles, "pitch" was the term of choice in central California when I was learning to drive.
I'd really like to know what the story with DXTweak is. I haven't been able to get deadzone adjustment in XP with it and have heard or read that XP doesn't support deadzone. But I keep hearing people suggesting DXTweak. Is there some top secret version I'm not allowed to know about, or is it something else?
Really nice ideas except for...
4.
If there were one thing I could change about LFS guess what...?
It *wouldn't* be the tire physics. It would be NO RESTARTS.
I can't stand the impatience and utter lack of disrespect that voted restarts have fostered. It's also not very realistic. A red flag by a marhall or COC, sure, but drivers voting? Come on....
4.
If there were one thing I could change about LFS guess what...?
It *wouldn't* be the tire physics. It would be NO RESTARTS.
I can't stand the impatience and utter lack of disrespect that voted restarts have fostered. It's also not very realistic. A red flag by a marhall or COC, sure, but drivers voting? Come on....
My wife had an RS Camaro with a freaking speed limiter like that. I found it on a downhill corner outside of Las Vegas. She had been sleeping and I had to explain to her why she woke up with a fright in slide at 120mph.
It is, hands down, the stupidist design 'feature' I've ever seen on a car that doesn't say Ford on the front. I coulda killed someone from Chevy had they shown up within an hour after that little episode.
illepallI really don't think it's a matter of throttle. I have excellent throttle control and am fully aware of what throttle should do in any given situation. LFS tire physics is off to some degree, although slight. I would be willing to bet that many are giving too much throttle, but not all... not me.
As far as low speeds being the problem, I'd say no. I've driven more than a few road going vehicles. I have yet to meet a single one that goes into terminal oversteer at neutral throttle, well below the limit, at the moment steering angle is applied. (Yes, I am also very aware of what I am doing with the wheel.) You can spin the LFS RWD with ridiculously low steering angle at turn in under neutral throttle at well over 100kph, or 200kph for that matter.
Notice that Bob's exquisite setups always enter the conversation. I suspect the lateral grip is off to some extent. It seems like straight line grip is very realistic but as soon as there is any lateral force the whole thing becomes something other than realistic. I've noticed that camber can be ridiculously high and the grip keeps climbing. I've never experimented with excessive camber in real life, but I would expect there has to be point of diminishing returns. I've also noticed that along with the excessive grip that comes with excessive camber is a loss of feel, or read, on what the tires are doing. So, you get tons of grip immediately, then when you go over you don't see it coming. My RWD sets all have lower cambers than the default sets. And front is very low in comparison. On the LX6 it's lower than the rear. I got some of my ideas from Bob. The cars act very realistically. Neutral throttle turn in oversteer is a thing of the past for me and I find that I am using my right foot more realistically throughout all turn phases. (With the default sets the right foot had no correlation to real life. Very disappointing.)
So, yes, there is certainly a problem with the tire physics, low or high speed. Yes, it can be tuned out with setup.
Why do I think it's a problem? Well, I've never purposefully set my rear camber 1/2 a degree lower in real life to see what it would do, but I've seen bigger numbers on my alignment charts from the mechanic and had no problem driving to the shop. I've also driven some *very* bent machinery, race and non race vehicles. Even they were more predictable than the stock LX6 in LFS.
At this point, when there is some grip problem that doesn't have an analogy to real life, I *tune* it out with seat time - learning how to apply steering, throttle, and brake in a manner that produces results in LFS even though it might not in real life. Fine. All sims are like that. But I think it points to a problem.
No, when I try to reconnect I get the "connecting to master server... " message until it times out. I have to restart the game, then it works fist time.
Love the Disco Stu image.
Love the Disco Stu image.
There is no comparison. Bob's sets will make a lot less people get discouraged. They should be in the demo for sure.
At this point in time the physics in LFS are not done. It is important to be very careful with tire cambers and pressure. If the camber is too high, the car gets over commited laterally without much in the way of feedback to you, the driver. The fronts are especially important because when the front get's over commited you can't tell until it's too late. (Sometimes too late is at the very moment you turn the steering wheel.) I understand keyboarding is a chore, but less camber, especially in the front, and less rear pressure will help A LOT!
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG