ya gotta love forum propagation

Quote from mkinnov8 :

convoluted... Why?

At the time that I signed up, the process was something like this:

1. Register with site to get into forums.
   
2. Read these 7 things in 7 different places that you can't find and we don't post a link to.
   
3. Post in this thread to get approved for the approval process.
   
4. Once that is moved to another forum, you application to become an applicant is "in process".
   
5. Wait for email saying you've been approved.
   
6. Once approved, you will be able to access the actual forum where you can apply.
   
7. Apply there, using these guidlines that can't be found on the site without bomb sniffing dogs and at least three emails to admins.
   
8. Once your Application is approved you may put the |A after your name. (Although it was totally unclear as to how I would know I was approved. A name changed in a list in yet another thread that was impossible to find.)
   

There was a serious problem with a lack of links in the approval process. A single form or page, with a single email or forum reply would go a long way towards deconvoluting the thing.

Quote :

Applicants shouldnt ask people to watch or give votes, its a thing that happens naturally, granted that members need to be more willing to give votes. Done worry about taking peoples time, but no one should be askin for people to watch or give votes.

Also at the time I applied: The rule was not to ask. Cool, good idea. Then at some point I thought I read a post in the forum where one of the admins was advocating asking.

I never have though, so I squeaked by on that one, eh?

Quote :

The CRC servers are infact regually un use, tho as with any server there are slow periods. The XFR Has been discussed elsewhere, and is something that will change with time.

I have no skills in the FWDs. Last thing I need to do is try to show how clean I am in a car that doesn't listen to my right foot. In a game that is so balanced, I find the lack of RWD support by CRC to be the most grievous of it's failings.

Quote :

Not sure I understand this fully, can you explain a little more...

But we are running leagues, the CRC Challenge Cup was infact an idea that came from an applicant!

I knew saying this that the idea must already be out there. But said it anyway. Haven't had a look at the Challange Cup yet. My idea was that, say you have two leagues. GURU, and CORE. Both of them apply, as a league, to CRC. A CRC admin drops in on one of their scheduled races. The replay is looked at and they get a "CRC Team Approval". No one driver is approved singly, but the entire league is approved under the special designation. So the team vouches for the drivers that did not show at the race, but it's only a team approval/membership. If individuals want to join they must still go through the regular process.

Now you have Team Approvals. What's that good for? Well CORE can go to the CRC site and go, "Say, that GURU league looks like they'd be a good race." Assured that GURU, on the whole, are clean racers looking for the same type of online experience that CORE enjoys. Then a glove is drawn across the face, and the fun ensues.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Thu 3 Nov 2005, 18:52.

Quote from lucky :

That means that you braked too early.
Now for real: if you go for overtake, you brake at the latest possible moment (so to outbrake other guy). That means that yo annot slow down even more to back out ...
Solution is simple: alway leave room on the inside if you even suspect taht someone might be there (sam thing goes on corner exit on the outside) ... Side by side racing is fun ...

So true. What I think I meant was, If I am not *going* to be side by side at the brake marker. Leaving room is always the funnest way to race. Except for when some alien goes 10mph quicker around a corner than I do even though he's hugging the curb from entry to exit.

Wow, that was something...

I'm having a hard time figuring out how to actually race with CRC members and get membership. I've done all the paper work as an applicant, a process which I considered far too convoluted. But now don't feel comfortable asking anyone I see at a public server to watch. For all I know, the CRC|M that just joined the race is taking the first and last ten minutes of his/her spare time for the week to enjoy a little LFS. The CRC server is of no help to me as a) there is never anyone on it when I look in, and b) FWD. That being said, I haven't really tried that hard.

Also, it would be nice to see the CRC organize league against league races. It would mean everyone in the league becoming CRC, so the applicant process would have to be more efficient. But in the end, leagues racing leagues in a "trusted" environment could be very cool.

I'm getting really good feedback off the tire sounds. In the FWDs I'm able to drive as WOZ explained he does in his Mini. I'm not very good with the FWDs yet, my right foot is a major impedement as 27 years of instincts are fighting change. But I'm "feeling" everything.

My tire sounds are all the way up, engine sounds almost all the way down. That may have something to do with it. And I don't use FF. I think I "feel" much, much more without it.

In the RWDs the rear tires seem to be a little more critical than I percieve them to be IRL. I think the fronts are masking to some extent. I'm sure the tire physics need some tweaking, and will get it.

I'm really refering more to personality when I say handling. The 240sx is a sweet handler and cornerer. The 300z that my brother owns is fairly good around corners, but it is not a neutral car with a tendancy toward understeer at all speeds and crazy snap oversteer. I've never liked stock BMWs. Have driven a few, don't like the roll. Not sure what it is. But they don't feel responsive to me.

The Camaro is very easy to read. The correct models also have gobs of power. My favorite feeling when driving is that of a direct link from the engine to the rear wheels. I'd rather all my cars have a chain straight to the back axle. Any bit of lag drives me nuts. (I can't drive an automatic to save my life.) Maybe it is the diffs that came in my favorite Camaros that did that.

Do Sciroccos do 160mph? If so, how are they in a drift at that speed? I'm not saying they aren't worth having, even more so than a Camaro. I'm just saying the Camaro has it's charms. And RWD is really the only truly romantic and responsive drive system, as god intended.

As far as street racing goes, well... I've blown off so many really nice Porsches, BMWs, Audis, Vipers... and not just in a Camaro, and NEVER in a straight line. Mountains only for me. Datsun 510s, Mazda RX7, Toyota Celica, Isuzu Troopers, Pontiac Fiero, Datsun 620s, Chevy Nova, Galaxy 500, I've even embarrased a few folks who thought they were racing in my VW Bus. (Downhill usually.) I've driven some very nice Porsches and Ferraris and the like. Let me just say that on the public road, the car is rarely the reason for the result of the race.

I've totaled every vehicle I've owned, but never by crashing them.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Some come on, how old are you?

That avatar is confusing me. It's obvious that Yin is a rim and tire. (Or is that Yan?) But what's the other one? A beer can running away from media player 9? I'm not getting it.

I'm getting closer to 19 since I started counting backwards on my 33nd birthday.

Quote from jtw62074 :

As Doug Milliken explained it to me, the feeling that the car has "let go" is not because the force curves fall off after the peak (if they indeed do), but rather that the force merely stops rising. When you hit the peak you can get the sensation that the car has broken away. The shape of the curve leading up to this point will be what tells your butt whether the tire breaks away suddenly or not.

There are really two things there:

1. Where the peak occurs (i.e., at what slip angle does the force stop rising). The greater this slip angle is, the more forgiving the tires will feel. Street tires peak at very high slip angles. I've seen data showing peaks at 20 degrees. One set showed it still rising at 28 degrees!

2. The shape of the curve leading up to the peak. If the force rises very linearily and then suddenly flattens out, the tire will feel like it breaks away very suddenly. If instead it rises normally and quickly starts rolling off towards the peak (the slope decreases to 0 gently) it will feel more forgiving. Tire designers can influence this shape substantially through their choices in cord patterns/angles and so forth. Radials typically rise more quickly than bias ply tires and roll off a bit more suddenly (into a flat peak!) This makes them feel like they break away more suddenly then bias tires do and leads people to believe (falsely) that radial tires are losing a bunch of grip after the peak. T'aint so!

This is similar to people's rear ends telling them that cars actually speed up once they hit the grass sideways, which is of course nonsense. The acceleration became lower, that's all.

Wow! Your (and Milliken's) contributions to this thread are making my head spin. Great stuff. So... I've always felt that the car or kart or bike or skateboard is really at it's peak when it starts to get "squirmy". That's been my interpretation. My buddies and I used to trade cars in highschool and we'd talk about where the car "floats". I'd say, "In my car you want it to float around the shifter." Dave would say, "To drive my car right it needs to float around where the backs of the front seats meet the frame." We we're talking about where you put the sense of rotation in a particular chassis to drive it neutral. But to get to float, we were always refering to the tires. Float only happened once the tires were at the limit. If that's making any sense.

So, LX6. LFS. I have no idea where I'm going with this. I've always felt that the fronts over commit, perceptually or actually, in certain cars more than others, in LFS. Like, they get more grip, more quickly, and with less feedback than the rears. I have been lowering and lowering cambers to make the cars "float" more. I find that if the cambers are too high, the car (or end of car) commits at a level that I can't percieve. The imbalance in handling then becomes a result of me providing steering or throttle input that I am not aware of until it's far too late. (Commited.) I was just driving a FOX around that I think is quite nuetral, front cambers are at 1.40, rears at 1.90. I wanted it to oversteer a little more, changed rear camber to 1.83, and got the desired result. I am more and more, tuning the "feel" of the tires with camber.

In the LX6 front camber is key to the radical mid and late corner oversteer for me. I have noticed that a lot of people set up the LX6 to understeer like cazy with very stiff front ends. All fine and dandy under the limit, making the car not spin crazy, but also making a car that doesn't turn in well and becomes a bear by the time it does get pitched. In the LX6 my cambers are well below 1 degree in front. Bars are at a minimum, and spings medium with less sping in front. The car seems to rotate well, and is easy to read front and rear without that over commitment in the front end that I think I'm not feeling.

So what does any of this have to do with any of that? Heck if I know. I don't understand most of this thread. Some of the steering angle setup stuff seems really important, especially in the LX6. I understand what caster is geometrically at the front axle, but am having a hard time picturing how it affects the rest of the car through cornering phases. Add to that, suspension geometry, rates, and slip angle correlations and I'm completely lost.

In the end, I think that a lot of the problem is perceptual. You can set the car up to act properly, with acceptable grip and balance through the cornering phases. Reading what it is doing is entirely another task.

Thanks for the info. A real help in your printed message and the link... why on earth have I never before clicked the link in Bob's signature?

I fully intend to create copy of Big Basin Way leaving Saratoga, CA and arriving at the summit once track editors are released. Back in the 70s it was a public race track. The cops kinda left the sportier citizens to their fate and patrolled the roads in town. Sort of a "Well, if they're up there risking it, better than down here." attitude. Times have changed a bit, and there is a cop on every corner now.

Seriously though, one of the best roads ever.

Quote from xaotik :

Try the pitspotter app.

Man. That thing is LOUD!!!

How do you turn it down?

We have to get on the track together. I read what you write, it's like I'm looking in a mirror. RL is much easier for me too. Especially braking. I can outbrake anyone in a kart. And I'm not an underbraker like the person you usually hear say that sort of thing. I have references who typically drive circles around me. My starts rule too. But I think the general personality trait is there. Just different mechanics of different racing classes. (Sim online vs. RL.)

I don't use my horn when pressuring, but I learned a lot about feignts from watching Mansell and Senna back in the day.

oops... No, I've never owned, or driven, one of those. They sure look cool though.

Bob, learned that last night or the night before. I was in the RX7y GTR thing at Aston Nat and was getting wheelspin in the slow corners. A guy suggested more power side lock. Worked like a charm. The different types are a brain clot for me too. Hard to feel what they are doing.

I certainly don't want to race FWD. Or do anything in FWD. But my league is running a series... and I love racing with them.... and Gimpster made a setup that isn't too frustrating. Still, it's too much to ask two wheels to do. And my right foot acts all funny...

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Sun 30 Oct 2005, 02:42.

I love it. I've done more than a few 1 to 2 hour races there in F08. I can almost get a full tank on Bs. A few more tweaks to the setup and maybe...

Quote from speedfreak227 :

RACECRAFT: my best strength in the game and real racing. i'm rarely the fastest but i'll do lap after lap a few seconds off the pace. i can see an accident happening and set up to dodge it. i don't make risky passes and i don't block. if someone's got a run, go right ahead, though i'm not moving off my line. i'll get ya back later.

If that's all there is to racecraft then I get a 10 too.

Not questioning your abilities, but I took off points on my own because I really don't have a knack for setting up a pass. I'm too careful or something. Unwilling to go right to the limit and risk an incedent. And my strategic instincts are low. I don't see the opportunities the way others do. I'm learning a little at a time though.

Bonus!

I think handling and cornering are two different things altogether. The Camaro, for what it's capable of, is an excellent handling car. When it get out of shape it's very easy to correct. (Given that it's one of the models with enough throttle response.) My Fiero does not handle as well as the Camaros do, but will out corner any of the ones I owned. (Box stock.)

I've only driven a Scirroco once or twice. I would probably have to agree, from memory, that the Scirroco corners better at low and medium speeds. But I'd take a Camaro before that any day. Because of the handling.

Oh yeah, on topic: Diffs confuse the crap out of me. I just keep flinging numbers until I can keep the thing on the road. An improvement for me would be to put a * next to the diff type that I don't need to understand to drive.

[edit] Driven a highschool GFs mini a few times. Great handler.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Sat 29 Oct 2005, 21:03.

Quote from Sternendaal :

I'll likely hang around somewhere in the servers,so maybe i'll race against you guys some day

Maybe?!

That's what you bought it for, get out there!

This is what FILSCA has been hoping to do since... I don't know... a long time now.

I'm not a gifted passer, but when I make a move, if I'm not side by side at braking marker I watch the other car carefully and back out when neccesary. When being challenged, and there is any question of how close my rival is, I leave enough room for both of us to make the corner.

Things to try:

Instant look (Options>View>Instant Look>Instant)

Moving your overhead mirror to center/top on each individual car. (While in car. Options>View>Mirror Offset Lateral and Mirror Offset Vertical)

Virtual mirror on formulas. (Options>Display>Mirror Mode>Virtual)

Practice "looking". It gets easier as time goes on.

Race online a lot.

Find a group of racers that you like, race with them a lot, learn thier styles.

See if you like 'Look Function'. It can help in certain situations, but does take a little bit of 'feel' from the car. (Options>View>Look Function)


Sounds to me like you're on the right track.

I had to go with Online Racing Simulator and only that. The others, when picturing public response, just don't say enough. Joe Public will probably draw the correct conclusion from Online Racing Simulator. While Simulator Racing Online is more correct, it simply doesn't "ring". Or does it say exactly what I'm complaining about? Or exactly the opposite...? Does it actually "ring"? Hey, where's the Ring in this game? I need to get laid...

Personally, I'm for the more viscerally engaging mental image.

"Inhale... Countersteer.... Exhaaaale.... "

Still my favorite.

...and "Worst. Arcade. Game. EVER!"

You may be right. I'll go get laid right now.

But I still think the racing is not simulated.

Quote from KiDCoDEa :

u need to get laid.

Me? I totally missed the relationship. Explain please.

Quote from Tweaker :

It is correct to call it that in every way, unless if you read it wrong, it's not Online-Racing Simulator, it would be Online Racing-Simulator. At least, that is how it should be interpreted.

Nope, I tried, but still can't agree. It is an Online Racing-Simulator if you put more than one AI on the grid and watch them go. I don't see too much of that online. (We should set that up and place bets! :nod I'll go with Online Racing/Simulator any day. It's a matter of focus and leading the subconsious in advertising. This thing allows us to focus on the racing. The simulation is almost secondary. Now that's a simulation! (...and yes. The bank account loves smashing an LX6 into a rail much more than a Gold Firefox.)

Sorry for the off topic slant.

I go through 40 sets of tires a week.

(To cop Bob's idea.)
877 races. 255 wins. Never left the house.

Bliss in 96.382 seconds.

Don't lift, shift.

Breath in... countersteer... breath out.

Zen and the Art of Sideways.

Sweaty palms, 160 heart rate, no danger whatsoever.

Driving at the limit has never been so affordable.

If you aint sideways, you aint livin'!

Wheel to wheel, mind to mind.

Racing - Science for the action minded.

(For S3)
Spa after breakfast, Watkins Glen after lunch, Le Mas du Clos before dinner.