Doesn't sound harsh in any way. I agree fully with everything you've stated in this thread. So that means all of us need to be adjustable, flexible, in all aspects of life. Software designers and users. My gripe is that I've always had to go to great extremes to get controller satisfaction with KaemmerWare. Oddly enough, not with other software including CrammondWare which has about the worst controller implementation I've ever seen. I am not trying to drive iRacing like I drive LFS. It requires different technique. (Which leads me to my opinion about which is more realistic in the physics department.)
In all sims, we have to adjust to characteristics of the cars and physics. In all things in RL too. I've no problem with that. I have a problem when the adjustablity is unachievable in a reasonable manner, considering that it can be easily compensated for in the software.
Yes, I use that. I also use like I stated. I've also used the opposite of what you suggest, using full throttle to induce understeer at corner exit. And of course scrub braking by turning in hard early and allowing the car to drift past the apex. (Using the word drift in the conventional sense - So, under to neutral drift.) All probably real techniques depending on how the car is weighted and what the shape of the road underneath is. There is simply something wrong about the grip in iRacing. It has been stated in this thread in different ways. Can't pin it down to a single phrase right now. It's a matter of when and under what circumstances it works.
So here is a diagram of my sim experience:
My Pedal
All the way up-----Start of resistance-----All the way down
iRacing brake meter
No brakes---------Half value--------------Full value
iRacing car behaviour
----------Brakes lock
I wouldn't call it a physics problem. I like the way the brakes act and feel in iRacing. (Although I'm starting to question things like the Mazda locking at full speed in a straight line based on what I'm reading here.)
What bothers me is how early in the slope the cars lock. I have to do it by muscle memory alone. I have no other feedback. I do not find confidence, control, or consistency in the controller implementation. It ruins my racing experience. It is not realistic or simulatory if we base it on what I am able to do in a real car.
Real brakes:
Pedal
Up------Start of resistance-----Lock at 25mph----All the way down
What we feel
---------Resistance-------------Less restistance
---------Car pitching forward----Car leveling
---------Car slowing------------Car not slowing as much
---------Pressure against harness and wheel and pedals
Based on this diagram, the pedal slope in iRacing actually makes sense. Except that the first diagram illustrates my pedal and many others, and we can't feel any of those other things for less than 20 grand. In real life I really don't hear the tires often. In sim life I'm cool with using sound to provide feedback, realistic or not. I do not find the sounds in iRacing to help much with the braking. Nor do I get much from the cockpit movement. So what I need is some feeling in the foot. Out of all the things DK&C could implement, braking controller slope seems like it would be the easiest. Not that I would know.
So, yes. I would say it's a software problem. I would say they are ruining a really good physical model by making it unaccessible to certain users without a lot of experimentation. I don't want to spend my time trying to kludge the controller, I want to spend it finding the line and racing. The problem is in controller implimentation. The. Single. Most. Important. Design. Consideration. In. Any. Real. Time. Simulation.
I'm really enjoying the discussion of how brakes work. It is opening my eyes to my technique in RL and giving me good indication of how to translate those skills to a simulation based on what I can find out about the sim by driving it and reading other peoples interpretions.
In the end, I really don't care how faithful the sim is. It's all about the racing. Do I sweat at the start light? Chicken leg in my right foot and shifting hand? Do I sometimes need a lap or so to get my rhythm? Do I lose focus at certain points and have to reign it in? Am I killing my tires and times by over driving? Am I killing my times by under driving? Did I leave the oven on? Do I respond differently to a car showing up in my mirrors based on the helmet color? Can I keep it together when hounded by a quicker driver behind? Can I keep it together and make the right move at the right time to cleanly make a pass? In all those situations I want control to be second nature. So I can flow. I am having really excellent races in both LFS and iRacing.
Really excellent races.
Oh... and speaking of chicken leg at the start. Does anything feel more real than blasting like a squirrel off the line in an open wheeler in LFS? Sahweeeet!
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
Crap. I was fooling myself the whole time. Does not work. Works plenty in LFS. Not needed though.
That right there is 100% Bull... onie. And makes my point perfectly. "Screw them suckers that aint got no good pedals." There is an option in the controller setup that asks, "Use H pattern shifter?" Well how about one in braking setup that asks, "Not using a load cell?" That is a cop out, a lame excuse, and insult to my intelligence and dedication as a sim racer. It does NOT make it more realistic, because in real life I can brake any vehicle without locking after only a few minutes behind the wheel. Of all the things that are certainly not realistic in iRacing, that is an odd one for DK&C to choose to defend in completely the wrong manner.
You know... the Waves API EQs sound surprisingly real and musical. You can use them in the most critical mix to get top quality professional result. If that aint simulation and serious number crunching, I don't know what is. [edit] (Point being, if Waves can simulate that APIs with such incredible accuracy, a slope on controller input aint rocket surgery.)
I believe you. Tonight at Jefferson I saw no smoke. And Jefferson is a locking course. I haven't seen smoke since the latest patch, but my first couple of weeks on iRacing I saw a lot of tire smoke. Maybe they were experimenting. But I saw it.
Both, but what feels really wrong is right in the middle of a corner whilst drifting to the skirt I simply keep neutral throttle and turn the wheel more. Tonight I caught myself using ridiculous gobs of lock. (I won though.)
I don't know what DX does, but it's a matter of slope. Since I've just found out, that DXTweak has no effect on iRacing, I'm going to blame the software 100%. Rather, the design philosophy.
Been using that technique in LFS all along. Also in iRacing. I think I need to make the point that I think the brakes in iRacing are simulated very well. Now if only I could activate them with my foot properly. THAT would be a "sim".
You mean like... putting a damn slope adjustment on your multimillion dollar software?
...or maybe... searching the hardware store for the better part of an hour to find the perfect rubber stopper that needs to be installed and removed daily?
I'm not all that good at math but my ex girlfriend showed me how to calculate a slope one day and it looked really cool. Easy too. (for her)
Get the Radical code and try it free. It's worth the time invested at the very least. A rubber stopper makes it quite drivable. I bought content after two weeks.
I am having great results in setting up the iRacing cars. Maybe it's because I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm using the old "change one thing at a time" principal. On the other hand. Changing what I'm doing with the controllers is working as well or better than setup changes in many cases. Mess with your lock.
Aaaahhh... I do love hacking on Kaemmer. Especially after spending the last three hours in his sim.
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
I think I was referring to using too much steering angle after I have successfully braked at the top of the screw. I've noticed that as my times drop in iRacing, and my SR is rocketing, I am using more and more induced understeer. If I start to push wide at say T1 Limerock, I simply crank the wheel and tighten up my line. Slowing all the while. If I try that in the 3rd gear hairpin at the end of SO5, under the overpass, the car slides into the rail. I've had understeer more than a few times in RL, in both street cars and racing breed. I will have to say that in my experience, LFS rings more true. Having raced on the same track with you in LFS, I do give your opinion serious consideration. I wonder what leads to our difference of experience. I do know you are much quicker than I in LFS. So, driving under the limit can explain a lot.
As far as the braking issue goes, you don't need to give my opinion thought because all is well on your end. As it is for many, many KaemmerWare drivers. But. And this is a big but. Many, many drivers are struggling with the issue. Including iRacing test drivers. (It was intimated to me in a PM with one of the devs that some of the testers had the same problem. DX was immediately blamed.) Just go drive on the iRacing servers and look at all the tire smoke. I am not the first to say it. I will certainly not be the last. DK and Crew have proven over 11 years of negligence that they intend to keep publishing the same mistake. Over, and over and over...
(Don't make me post the archives of the Mighty Vegemite Server. You don't want to read 100 threads about how stupid the controller setup is and what hundreds of sim racers went through to stop locking their brakes in GPL and NR. 8-))
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
Braking too late there is easy. And the physics are not completely dumb. Just too forgiving to be real. After I used DXTweak, the braking got much better. After I installed the rubber stopper, I realized that even with DXT I was still over braking. The car slowed much more quickly when I wasn't locking up slightly, which I was completely unaware I was doing, in race or replay. I'm now flat in the Solstice exiting the screw. Just turn the wheel and off I go.
Check my stats. Mark Jeangerard. After 100 some odd laps in the Mazda at VIR Grand West, I am now past survival mode and starting to work the corners. One by one. I *think* I'll be ready for the upcoming race.
PS, and this is not going to go over well, I would expect...
I think Scawen should start charging for cars.
At first I was very surprised when I payed to get the Mazda and tracks to run a series. Then I started to realize that I am OK with paying for something that has a high perceived value. Seriously, I've wasted 60 bucks on a crap meal at an overrated restaurant in the last 30 days alone.
I think Scawen deserves the dough. And, with me not buying the Scirocco, YOU won't have to worry about me taking it out for the odd curiosity spin, and ruining your race.
I think Scawen should start charging for cars.
At first I was very surprised when I payed to get the Mazda and tracks to run a series. Then I started to realize that I am OK with paying for something that has a high perceived value. Seriously, I've wasted 60 bucks on a crap meal at an overrated restaurant in the last 30 days alone.
I think Scawen deserves the dough. And, with me not buying the Scirocco, YOU won't have to worry about me taking it out for the odd curiosity spin, and ruining your race.
1. Yes, there are iRacing organized series. 12 week cycles. Best 8 weeks scored. But no user organized series and it is very hard to organize getting the same drivers in a race. You have to go through the forum, get all drivers concerned to agree to show up at the same time. Even then, there is no guarantee that you will all end up in the same race as the service decide where to put which entrants. I like racing the same people through the duration of a series. iRacing is all pick up.
2. But only what iRacing offers. Again, no user organized events. This is one of the things that is very cool about LFS. There are as many flavors as the imagination can come up with.
I don't know. I've been talking crap about iRacing on it's forum. Only you gots to be reeeeeeal carefullike. The forums are highly censored and moderated.
Seriously. One of the most bland environments I've ever seen.
Seriously. One of the most bland environments I've ever seen.
What I'm looking for is specifically this:
When I flick this, this happens. When I push that, that happens.
Works great in COD, Halo, iRacing, Myst....
What makes it a sim is if it flicks this and pushes that in an accurate representation of what I believe I'm seeing on the screen.
When it comes to real time, drivable, automobile simulations, LFS is the best I've tried so far. By a long shot.
When I flick this, this happens. When I push that, that happens.
Works great in COD, Halo, iRacing, Myst....
What makes it a sim is if it flicks this and pushes that in an accurate representation of what I believe I'm seeing on the screen.
When it comes to real time, drivable, automobile simulations, LFS is the best I've tried so far. By a long shot.
LFS Fanboy compares iRacing (Got a half an hour?)
[EDIT] Because I was having severe controller issues when I wrote this, some of the content, specifically in the First Things First section can be somewhat disregarded. The fact that I was having severe controller issues kind of supports the argument I put forth except for the fact that it was a different problem than I first thought. Thanks to the arguments in this thread I've sorted the problem. (With competing software, sorry Scawen.) I did ask iRacing first, they gave me no help. Yay, LFS forum. Anyway, on page five of the thread I explain how my opinion has changed ever so slightly.
I have said that I am not a fanboy. I'm really not. Especially when it comes to software. I hate ProTools, but I use it daily. I love Sonar. I use it daily. I ride Madd snowboards because they are the best for what I do. Should you ride one? That's up to you. You should certainly try one...
Anyway, this is my comparison of iRacing to LFS. It may end up looking like I am an LFS fanboy, but that's because LFS kicks ass all over iRacing. iRacing does have a couple of things over LFS however, and I think they are worth mentioning. Also worth mentioning is what ain't right about iRacing.
The better the physics get in simulators, the more important it is for the user to get appropriate feedback by whatever means. This is the crux of my issues with KaemmerWare, and I can't believe that after 11 years at the top of the sim chain, DK and pals refuse to even attempt to make it right.
First Things First
If we are to simulate something, we are to make as close a representation as possible. In the case of the type of automobile simulators that we are all infatuated with, not only do we want it to act like a car, but we want it to react like a car in real time based on our controller inputs. And this is where DK and crew have failed repeatedly over the years. Starting with, and most importantly, braking controller adjustment.
I remember the day the Monza demo came out. It was in fact a glorious day for sim racing. It was also the beginning of a long period of frustration for many sim racers. Here we had this glorious sim of a glorious sport in one of it's most glorious eras and within ten minutes I started hearing (or reading, rather) this:
“I can't tell when the brakes are on. I mean, there is no feel in the brakes.”
I'm sure all of us were giddy when first confronted by that deceptively simple calibration routine. Especially after Crammond's latest convoluted offerings. We all looked at the screen and thought, “That's it? Bad ass!” It wasn't long before we realized that simple and adequate can be two different things. DK's calibration scheme is exactly inadequate. Think about it. Knowing when you are braking, and by how much, is one of the most important aspects of auto racing. It's how we hit our apexes and if we choose to try a different line in a passing or defensive maneuver, we need to know how much or how little we are giving it. In sim world it is sometimes hard to feel the tires. Our next best defense is gaugeable and predictable controllers. What else, given the nature of ever changing sim technology, deserves so much importance as controller setup?
GPL started the era of tennis balls, rubber stoppers, dual springs, hydraulic actuators, ulcers, and just plain giving up. The Internet was riddled with ideas on how to change the slope of your pedal or at least, limit the movement to match the software. I'm going to repeat that because I think it's about the most silly thing I've ever heard. “The Internet was riddled with ideas on how to change the slope of your pedal or at least, limit the movement to match the software.” It's software! Just change some numbers!!! Fer cryin' out loud! I personally had a mechanical engineer redesign the push rod on my TSW to change the slope.
Well, it's 11 years later and guess what? Same calibration scheme. Same problems. My brake pedal has about three inches of travel. At 1.5 inches it starts to give some resistance. At three quarters of an inch travel the brakes in the iRacing car lock up. Without treatment, it is absolutely impossible for me to be consistent in iRacing. To be able to brake consistently in iRacing I need to: Open the Logitech applet and move my controllers to their extremes, start iRacing (which has to be done while connected to the Internet) and go to the controller setup page, remove the rubber stopper, recalibrate, replace the rubber stopper. This has to be done every time I start a new session. This is all after using DXTweak at darn near the highest settings to change the slope of direct input to raw data.
BTW, I am using the Momo. One of the most common pedals out there. (fanatec, fanatec, fanatec... gonna get me one O' them fanatec...) I had an email discussion with someone at iRacing. Just curious as to why they had not made the controller setup usable. I suggested that maybe the test crew had really cool pedals with adjustable ranges that feel like real brakes, coming on at the beginning of travel, but some of us did not. Software should account for the widest variety of users, eh? The responses I got were very carefully worded to include every possible fix besides DK and crew actually doing something. DX was blamed heavily for losing calibration and not having good slopes. iRacing is flawless software. Right... oddly enough, I have never adjusted the slope of my pedal for LFS. I have also gone months at a time without recalibrating. DX or no.
In 2003 I was in an NR2003 league with about 100 people I had known since GP2 leagues. They had become great friends and rivals. To this day, some of those races are the best races I've ever had. Really great battles with folks I knew as well as anyone. I still know their driving styles. We hung out, we raced, we hung out some more. I dropped that scene like a hot stone when S1 came out. I wanted to run with my friends, I did, I tried to talk them into following me. Some did. But I was soooo over not being in control of my car. I was simply happy to know that when I missed an apex in LFS that it was my fault. I got it wrong. Not my stupid pedal or software. The level of control, me being in control, is something I have always known in real cars. I want to be in control of the sim. That would be a true simulation. Me being in control to the same extent that I am in control of a real car.
To add to the general attitude of DK and Crew, there is only a simple wheel calibration utility and no lock settings in the setup menus. I have to recalibrate the wheel for every car. The Solstice works great with true calibration. But the Formula Mazda it a twitchy mother at the same setting. In tight hairpins I am still only turning the wheel 80 degrees or so. The effect is such that the car is upset simply by trying to drive it until I recal the wheel. At which point it acts perfectly normally. Really. Come on. A lock setting can't be that hard to program.
Sorry about that rant, but I hate, hate, hate the brakes in KaemmerWare. If you can tell, it really pisses me off.
Still The Same
There was a gripe about GPL and NR that I agree with. It goes something like this: “The car is too big for the road.” I feel that way when driving iRacing. Same as I did with the other two. When in the car, even a car that I know to be a little thing, I always feel like it takes up about two thirds of the track width. Looking at replays I can clearly see the car only takes up a sixth of the track. But in car it's dang near impossible to tell where I am on the track. This leads to sloppy performances that are, once again, not under my control. In iRacing I may gain or lose as much as two seconds a minute and have no idea what I did differently! You gotta be kidding me. In LFS I know when I gain two tenths. And I know it's two tenths at the time.
After 11 years... yadda yadda...
The SR rating
OK. This has nothing to do with LFS. But I think it's really cool. One of the problems with sim racing, and it's only a problem for those that wish to simulate racing a real car on a real track, is that there is nothing to lose. There is no pressure to be clean. In an effort much like that of many LFS servers and automated software running on them, iRacing has a system to make the racing more realistic. As a matter of fact, it is the primary focus of the iRacing software and community.
The Safety Rating is a system that penalizes you for putting two wheels off, cutting course, spinning, speeding in the pits, and hitting another competitor. It is automated and it doesn't take long to learn what the boundaries are. It is somewhat critical and you have to maintain a certain SR rating to advance out of the rookie field and into higher level races in higher class cars.
This is brilliant. The effect is to slow everyone down. How is that good you ask? Well, it means that people are more apt to learn the cars and tracks, practice, prepare, and run clean races. That's it. That's all it offers. For my taste in sim racing. It's a good thing. The driver approach on the servers is right up my alley. I like it. I subscribed to this fairly expensive service based solely on the racing atmosphere.
It sure ain't the physics that are keeping me racing iRacing.
The Physics
Really. When you think about it. Physics do not make or break good racing software. I've had great races with GP2, Indycar Racing, F12000, NR, GP4... even the odd NFS or Forza battle. It's about learning the limits, then finding control enough to be inventive and use your skills to one up your competitors. That being said, the only two racing games I play are LFS and iRacing because physics is very important to me. Nonetheless, without above said attitude, I would only be using LFS.
We already know the controller interface in iRacing sucks. I was about to give up when I learned a few things about how to make it tolerable. What about the physics?
Oh. My. God.
The delicious, gritty, sliding to the skirt, looking down the road, smallest hint of opposite lock, foot moving imperceptibly, squeezing, rotating, predictably biting, wondrous oversteer!!! Sideways is a term that describes my life. (I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I figured out what the movie was not about.) I slide everything. Pitched is a state of being for me. The luscious feel of skipping over the crown in the road knowing that you have exactly the right amount of lock and big toe to keep from spinning off as the car lurches over it's haunches then digs in and rockets you forward. That sensation when you know you are turning the wheel but to yourself and even a critical observer you can't see the amount of lock. The power and satisfaction that comes with knowing when and how much to put the pedal down. The strategic ability to make the decision between lateral and forward acceleration with only the notion that you are going to move your foot. The personal choice to get a better lap or just have some fun on a sunny afternoon.
Oh... the oversteer is magnificent in this game!
...and that's pretty much where it ends.
My brother and I spent a goodly portion of our childhoods sitting under a tree on the left side of the track at turn 6a at Laguna Seca eating hot dogs, drinking orange Crush, and watching all manner of action. In the days when Seca was 9 turns, 6a was the bottom of the corkscrew. The right hander. We watched as Mark Donahue ripped chunks off his Penske 917 every time he'd drop the car off that near cliff face. We couldn't believe there was anything left to drive by the end of the race. We saw Yvon DuHammel lay his Kawi down three times in one day. Always back on it and motoring down the road in seconds flat.
One thing we learned, even as little kids, was that you can't steer your car or bike if the front wheels are not in contact with the road. We saw so many people struggling to change course, front wheels skipping through the air, then the car would come down and whoop! Off they'd go. Same with the entry to 6. We'd see them flying off the track at the top of the hill. Trying to brake in the air. Too late! See ya!
iRacing is weird. You can feel all manner of things through the FFB and what you see and hear. But they ain't right. They tell you one thing, then eventually you find yourself in a situation where it is perfectly clear the thing was lying. Like understeer for example. It really feels cool. Every little drop in the road, every bump, you can really feel the car lift off the road. Then you are late in a turn, say, (what used to be) 6a and you instinctively turn the wheels more and guess what. The car turns effortlessly. Then you push farther, to see what the limit is and you realize that you can steer in the air. What?
Remember my celebratory paragraph about oversteer. OK. Repeat the same thing for understeer for LFS. But iRacing does not have it right.
I need to also add, that the oversteer in iRacing is great at medium high to high speed. But complete garbage at low medium to low speed. Since when does it take so much throttle to get a Radical SR8 sideways in a second gear hairpin? It's almost impossible. It's certainly not what I know about high power, low weight, traction limited formulas. Those things slide beautifully at low speed. The only way to get some of them around corners is to goose it a little and rotate the thing. And they are wonderfully predictable. If you try that in the iRacing sim it's a crap shoot.
And. The better the car, the harder it is to drive at moderate speeds. Wrong. Racing vehicles are a joy because they are precise. Spend a day in a shifter kart and your Ford Econoline acts like someone hired it to kill you on the way home. Sure, at the limit it's a knife edge, that's why Prost made the big bucks. But at 107%, even DeCessaris could get the thing sideways and survive. (Sometimes.)
In The End
In iRacing I feel loose and slightly out of control at all times. Not just when near the limit.
In LFS I know where I am at all times, even when slightly loose near the limit. (Not that I spend a lot of time there. I'm the Damon Hill of LFS.) (I know. I just called myself a ninny.)
iRacing is just not quite right in the physics department. As good as the rear of the car seems to be at certain times, it's probably a trick of perception. I have know way of knowing how a simulation works. I just know it's wrong.
LFS is the closest thing I've tried so far to driving a real car. It simply acts like one in more respects. And many more respects than any other I've tried. It's far more complete.
In iRacing I'm not making all the decisions. This is greatly due to shoddy controller implementation, weird POV, and 'not quite there' physics.
In LFS I make all the decisions. Good or bad. I cook my own goose and then I eat it. LFS is precise. That is the point to race bred vehicles and practice. Precision. It is the nature of racing itself.
iRacing has great RWD characteristics at high speed. I really realized how much I had been missing that in LFS. I have a hard time really saying iRacing is better. It's something more in the GUI I think. Some thrill factor. Some ability to read the car. It may even be that the physics are worse in iRacing that makes it easier to put the right foot down. On further investigation I think I decided that LFS acts more realistically, but due to the lack of feel in the computer representation the right foot doesn't have the same intention/result interpretation. It's easier in iRacing. More realistically or not.
LFS has better characteristics across the board and the RWD gets better all the time.
iRacing has cool content.
LFS has just as cool content, but more.
In iRacing the races are run on iRacing servers at regular intervals. If you want to pick up a race, you have to wait until it's race time.
In LFS you run when you want.
There are no leagues in iRacing.
There is no variety of events, championships, or points systems in iRacing.
I think iRacing has it's place. It's got a personality, that's for sure. The simulation aspect is not as strong, but it's close enough. It certainly is limited to what it is. It's good. It's complete in it's own way. It's worth paying for. At least for a while.
LFS by comparison seems unlimited in possibility.
Fanboy?
… sure... if that's how you need to call it.
[edit] Me and my girl broke up. I have tons of spare time. Can you tell?
I have said that I am not a fanboy. I'm really not. Especially when it comes to software. I hate ProTools, but I use it daily. I love Sonar. I use it daily. I ride Madd snowboards because they are the best for what I do. Should you ride one? That's up to you. You should certainly try one...
Anyway, this is my comparison of iRacing to LFS. It may end up looking like I am an LFS fanboy, but that's because LFS kicks ass all over iRacing. iRacing does have a couple of things over LFS however, and I think they are worth mentioning. Also worth mentioning is what ain't right about iRacing.
The better the physics get in simulators, the more important it is for the user to get appropriate feedback by whatever means. This is the crux of my issues with KaemmerWare, and I can't believe that after 11 years at the top of the sim chain, DK and pals refuse to even attempt to make it right.
First Things First
If we are to simulate something, we are to make as close a representation as possible. In the case of the type of automobile simulators that we are all infatuated with, not only do we want it to act like a car, but we want it to react like a car in real time based on our controller inputs. And this is where DK and crew have failed repeatedly over the years. Starting with, and most importantly, braking controller adjustment.
I remember the day the Monza demo came out. It was in fact a glorious day for sim racing. It was also the beginning of a long period of frustration for many sim racers. Here we had this glorious sim of a glorious sport in one of it's most glorious eras and within ten minutes I started hearing (or reading, rather) this:
“I can't tell when the brakes are on. I mean, there is no feel in the brakes.”
I'm sure all of us were giddy when first confronted by that deceptively simple calibration routine. Especially after Crammond's latest convoluted offerings. We all looked at the screen and thought, “That's it? Bad ass!” It wasn't long before we realized that simple and adequate can be two different things. DK's calibration scheme is exactly inadequate. Think about it. Knowing when you are braking, and by how much, is one of the most important aspects of auto racing. It's how we hit our apexes and if we choose to try a different line in a passing or defensive maneuver, we need to know how much or how little we are giving it. In sim world it is sometimes hard to feel the tires. Our next best defense is gaugeable and predictable controllers. What else, given the nature of ever changing sim technology, deserves so much importance as controller setup?
GPL started the era of tennis balls, rubber stoppers, dual springs, hydraulic actuators, ulcers, and just plain giving up. The Internet was riddled with ideas on how to change the slope of your pedal or at least, limit the movement to match the software. I'm going to repeat that because I think it's about the most silly thing I've ever heard. “The Internet was riddled with ideas on how to change the slope of your pedal or at least, limit the movement to match the software.” It's software! Just change some numbers!!! Fer cryin' out loud! I personally had a mechanical engineer redesign the push rod on my TSW to change the slope.
Well, it's 11 years later and guess what? Same calibration scheme. Same problems. My brake pedal has about three inches of travel. At 1.5 inches it starts to give some resistance. At three quarters of an inch travel the brakes in the iRacing car lock up. Without treatment, it is absolutely impossible for me to be consistent in iRacing. To be able to brake consistently in iRacing I need to: Open the Logitech applet and move my controllers to their extremes, start iRacing (which has to be done while connected to the Internet) and go to the controller setup page, remove the rubber stopper, recalibrate, replace the rubber stopper. This has to be done every time I start a new session. This is all after using DXTweak at darn near the highest settings to change the slope of direct input to raw data.
BTW, I am using the Momo. One of the most common pedals out there. (fanatec, fanatec, fanatec... gonna get me one O' them fanatec...) I had an email discussion with someone at iRacing. Just curious as to why they had not made the controller setup usable. I suggested that maybe the test crew had really cool pedals with adjustable ranges that feel like real brakes, coming on at the beginning of travel, but some of us did not. Software should account for the widest variety of users, eh? The responses I got were very carefully worded to include every possible fix besides DK and crew actually doing something. DX was blamed heavily for losing calibration and not having good slopes. iRacing is flawless software. Right... oddly enough, I have never adjusted the slope of my pedal for LFS. I have also gone months at a time without recalibrating. DX or no.
In 2003 I was in an NR2003 league with about 100 people I had known since GP2 leagues. They had become great friends and rivals. To this day, some of those races are the best races I've ever had. Really great battles with folks I knew as well as anyone. I still know their driving styles. We hung out, we raced, we hung out some more. I dropped that scene like a hot stone when S1 came out. I wanted to run with my friends, I did, I tried to talk them into following me. Some did. But I was soooo over not being in control of my car. I was simply happy to know that when I missed an apex in LFS that it was my fault. I got it wrong. Not my stupid pedal or software. The level of control, me being in control, is something I have always known in real cars. I want to be in control of the sim. That would be a true simulation. Me being in control to the same extent that I am in control of a real car.
To add to the general attitude of DK and Crew, there is only a simple wheel calibration utility and no lock settings in the setup menus. I have to recalibrate the wheel for every car. The Solstice works great with true calibration. But the Formula Mazda it a twitchy mother at the same setting. In tight hairpins I am still only turning the wheel 80 degrees or so. The effect is such that the car is upset simply by trying to drive it until I recal the wheel. At which point it acts perfectly normally. Really. Come on. A lock setting can't be that hard to program.
Sorry about that rant, but I hate, hate, hate the brakes in KaemmerWare. If you can tell, it really pisses me off.
Still The Same
There was a gripe about GPL and NR that I agree with. It goes something like this: “The car is too big for the road.” I feel that way when driving iRacing. Same as I did with the other two. When in the car, even a car that I know to be a little thing, I always feel like it takes up about two thirds of the track width. Looking at replays I can clearly see the car only takes up a sixth of the track. But in car it's dang near impossible to tell where I am on the track. This leads to sloppy performances that are, once again, not under my control. In iRacing I may gain or lose as much as two seconds a minute and have no idea what I did differently! You gotta be kidding me. In LFS I know when I gain two tenths. And I know it's two tenths at the time.
After 11 years... yadda yadda...
The SR rating
OK. This has nothing to do with LFS. But I think it's really cool. One of the problems with sim racing, and it's only a problem for those that wish to simulate racing a real car on a real track, is that there is nothing to lose. There is no pressure to be clean. In an effort much like that of many LFS servers and automated software running on them, iRacing has a system to make the racing more realistic. As a matter of fact, it is the primary focus of the iRacing software and community.
The Safety Rating is a system that penalizes you for putting two wheels off, cutting course, spinning, speeding in the pits, and hitting another competitor. It is automated and it doesn't take long to learn what the boundaries are. It is somewhat critical and you have to maintain a certain SR rating to advance out of the rookie field and into higher level races in higher class cars.
This is brilliant. The effect is to slow everyone down. How is that good you ask? Well, it means that people are more apt to learn the cars and tracks, practice, prepare, and run clean races. That's it. That's all it offers. For my taste in sim racing. It's a good thing. The driver approach on the servers is right up my alley. I like it. I subscribed to this fairly expensive service based solely on the racing atmosphere.
It sure ain't the physics that are keeping me racing iRacing.
The Physics
Really. When you think about it. Physics do not make or break good racing software. I've had great races with GP2, Indycar Racing, F12000, NR, GP4... even the odd NFS or Forza battle. It's about learning the limits, then finding control enough to be inventive and use your skills to one up your competitors. That being said, the only two racing games I play are LFS and iRacing because physics is very important to me. Nonetheless, without above said attitude, I would only be using LFS.
We already know the controller interface in iRacing sucks. I was about to give up when I learned a few things about how to make it tolerable. What about the physics?
Oh. My. God.
The delicious, gritty, sliding to the skirt, looking down the road, smallest hint of opposite lock, foot moving imperceptibly, squeezing, rotating, predictably biting, wondrous oversteer!!! Sideways is a term that describes my life. (I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I figured out what the movie was not about.) I slide everything. Pitched is a state of being for me. The luscious feel of skipping over the crown in the road knowing that you have exactly the right amount of lock and big toe to keep from spinning off as the car lurches over it's haunches then digs in and rockets you forward. That sensation when you know you are turning the wheel but to yourself and even a critical observer you can't see the amount of lock. The power and satisfaction that comes with knowing when and how much to put the pedal down. The strategic ability to make the decision between lateral and forward acceleration with only the notion that you are going to move your foot. The personal choice to get a better lap or just have some fun on a sunny afternoon.
Oh... the oversteer is magnificent in this game!
...and that's pretty much where it ends.
My brother and I spent a goodly portion of our childhoods sitting under a tree on the left side of the track at turn 6a at Laguna Seca eating hot dogs, drinking orange Crush, and watching all manner of action. In the days when Seca was 9 turns, 6a was the bottom of the corkscrew. The right hander. We watched as Mark Donahue ripped chunks off his Penske 917 every time he'd drop the car off that near cliff face. We couldn't believe there was anything left to drive by the end of the race. We saw Yvon DuHammel lay his Kawi down three times in one day. Always back on it and motoring down the road in seconds flat.
One thing we learned, even as little kids, was that you can't steer your car or bike if the front wheels are not in contact with the road. We saw so many people struggling to change course, front wheels skipping through the air, then the car would come down and whoop! Off they'd go. Same with the entry to 6. We'd see them flying off the track at the top of the hill. Trying to brake in the air. Too late! See ya!
iRacing is weird. You can feel all manner of things through the FFB and what you see and hear. But they ain't right. They tell you one thing, then eventually you find yourself in a situation where it is perfectly clear the thing was lying. Like understeer for example. It really feels cool. Every little drop in the road, every bump, you can really feel the car lift off the road. Then you are late in a turn, say, (what used to be) 6a and you instinctively turn the wheels more and guess what. The car turns effortlessly. Then you push farther, to see what the limit is and you realize that you can steer in the air. What?
Remember my celebratory paragraph about oversteer. OK. Repeat the same thing for understeer for LFS. But iRacing does not have it right.
I need to also add, that the oversteer in iRacing is great at medium high to high speed. But complete garbage at low medium to low speed. Since when does it take so much throttle to get a Radical SR8 sideways in a second gear hairpin? It's almost impossible. It's certainly not what I know about high power, low weight, traction limited formulas. Those things slide beautifully at low speed. The only way to get some of them around corners is to goose it a little and rotate the thing. And they are wonderfully predictable. If you try that in the iRacing sim it's a crap shoot.
And. The better the car, the harder it is to drive at moderate speeds. Wrong. Racing vehicles are a joy because they are precise. Spend a day in a shifter kart and your Ford Econoline acts like someone hired it to kill you on the way home. Sure, at the limit it's a knife edge, that's why Prost made the big bucks. But at 107%, even DeCessaris could get the thing sideways and survive. (Sometimes.)
In The End
In iRacing I feel loose and slightly out of control at all times. Not just when near the limit.
In LFS I know where I am at all times, even when slightly loose near the limit. (Not that I spend a lot of time there. I'm the Damon Hill of LFS.) (I know. I just called myself a ninny.)
iRacing is just not quite right in the physics department. As good as the rear of the car seems to be at certain times, it's probably a trick of perception. I have know way of knowing how a simulation works. I just know it's wrong.
LFS is the closest thing I've tried so far to driving a real car. It simply acts like one in more respects. And many more respects than any other I've tried. It's far more complete.
In iRacing I'm not making all the decisions. This is greatly due to shoddy controller implementation, weird POV, and 'not quite there' physics.
In LFS I make all the decisions. Good or bad. I cook my own goose and then I eat it. LFS is precise. That is the point to race bred vehicles and practice. Precision. It is the nature of racing itself.
iRacing has great RWD characteristics at high speed. I really realized how much I had been missing that in LFS. I have a hard time really saying iRacing is better. It's something more in the GUI I think. Some thrill factor. Some ability to read the car. It may even be that the physics are worse in iRacing that makes it easier to put the right foot down. On further investigation I think I decided that LFS acts more realistically, but due to the lack of feel in the computer representation the right foot doesn't have the same intention/result interpretation. It's easier in iRacing. More realistically or not.
LFS has better characteristics across the board and the RWD gets better all the time.
iRacing has cool content.
LFS has just as cool content, but more.
In iRacing the races are run on iRacing servers at regular intervals. If you want to pick up a race, you have to wait until it's race time.
In LFS you run when you want.
There are no leagues in iRacing.
There is no variety of events, championships, or points systems in iRacing.
I think iRacing has it's place. It's got a personality, that's for sure. The simulation aspect is not as strong, but it's close enough. It certainly is limited to what it is. It's good. It's complete in it's own way. It's worth paying for. At least for a while.
LFS by comparison seems unlimited in possibility.
Fanboy?
… sure... if that's how you need to call it.
[edit] Me and my girl broke up. I have tons of spare time. Can you tell?
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
You know, I really like the other end of the spectrum. I never enjoyed any game quite so much as Myst. Just wandering aimlessly. Looking at all the pretty sights.
I like stuff like COD as long as it's quiet. Laying in some weeds somewhere calmly sniping people between the eyes.
iRacing
I like stuff like COD as long as it's quiet. Laying in some weeds somewhere calmly sniping people between the eyes.
iRacing
OK. I don't get this. Why would somebody brag about being in IRL. On TV sure, "I play a doctor who's going to save my sister from terrible Alliance brain scrambling." That's impressive.
"I'm a lazy American racer who got my fanny handed to me the first time Mansell sat in one of our cars." Is not impressive.
rFactor may be many things.
But if you've ever experienced motion of any type in this universe, surely you must know it's not an automobile driving sim.
But if you've ever experienced motion of any type in this universe, surely you must know it's not an automobile driving sim.
Since all cars but one are the same in my mind, I'm going to have to break "normal cars, rather than Lamborghini's and Bugatti's or silly suggestions." rule.
Enzo
Enzo
Where does one get the iRacing software?
Let me make two points first:
1. That post was written tongue in cheek at the beginning. A self satire, if you will, of my intermediate skills. The intent did not transfer well as I digressed.
2. The only thing I am a fan boy of is racing other humans.
Why the Devs have been working alone has been well stated. It's simply another flavor. Another version of reality. Just like other sims have their reality. At this point I can't swing iracing. NK? Don't really feel it. That being said, I personally think Cart Precision Racing had a realistic feel that no one else has captured to this point. Also, in LFS, leagues can be set up in ways that only the imagination can limit. iRacing itself, seems a little limiting.
So, three more points:
1. LFS *is* progressing. There is nothing static about it. I personally like the direction the Devs are going. Their philosophy is right up my alley. Everything I pick at in other sims is settled in LFS. The tire physics are still off a bit for a RWD fan like myself. But not so far that the competition isn't like racing real cars that are simply a tad bit evil.
2. LFS seems to be that middle ground. I just told you I *got* CPR. Almost the whole world disagrees with me. Some people like the Kaemmer sims. I don't. Seems like a great percentage of people *get* LFS. I like dicing. If the sim allows a variety of people to dice. I'm all for it. NR2003 had somthing really nice in the rear tires. The way it caught a slide. For some other reason, I couldn't keep it on the track. Not fun for me.
3. If you like and spend time on other software. Great! Just realize, and then continue to realize, that LFS is on LFS schedule. LFS time is different for a reason. Included in that reason, graphics take a back seat to other things.
Now I'm gonna go try iRacing.
1. That post was written tongue in cheek at the beginning. A self satire, if you will, of my intermediate skills. The intent did not transfer well as I digressed.
2. The only thing I am a fan boy of is racing other humans.
Why the Devs have been working alone has been well stated. It's simply another flavor. Another version of reality. Just like other sims have their reality. At this point I can't swing iracing. NK? Don't really feel it. That being said, I personally think Cart Precision Racing had a realistic feel that no one else has captured to this point. Also, in LFS, leagues can be set up in ways that only the imagination can limit. iRacing itself, seems a little limiting.
So, three more points:
1. LFS *is* progressing. There is nothing static about it. I personally like the direction the Devs are going. Their philosophy is right up my alley. Everything I pick at in other sims is settled in LFS. The tire physics are still off a bit for a RWD fan like myself. But not so far that the competition isn't like racing real cars that are simply a tad bit evil.
2. LFS seems to be that middle ground. I just told you I *got* CPR. Almost the whole world disagrees with me. Some people like the Kaemmer sims. I don't. Seems like a great percentage of people *get* LFS. I like dicing. If the sim allows a variety of people to dice. I'm all for it. NR2003 had somthing really nice in the rear tires. The way it caught a slide. For some other reason, I couldn't keep it on the track. Not fun for me.
3. If you like and spend time on other software. Great! Just realize, and then continue to realize, that LFS is on LFS schedule. LFS time is different for a reason. Included in that reason, graphics take a back seat to other things.
Now I'm gonna go try iRacing.
7 years. Seven. It took me 7 years to get the chicane at Blackwood. I finally figured it out tonight.
For me this game has everything I need. For a guy like me, there are already too many cars. I need to focus on a couple just to see improvement. That's how I do drivers too. I'll get a couple in my speed range and keep after them. Problem is, they keep getting quicker too.
I see no end to it. If the software stopped progressing right now. I'd never run out of goals. That's why I buy gaming and simulation software. For the goals. Like becoming pure evil in Fable. Or master the light saber in Outcast. Problem with those is, I finished them.
I started racing sims because I love driving quickly. I wanted to drive against Senna and Mansel. I wanted to drive an F1. (Actually, I started with night driver in contests with my bros. Then Sprint and Hard Driving and the like.) I got World Circuit and GP2 and Viper and NFS and F1 2000 or what not, GPL...
I started racing karts because racing my bros on the mountain roads started getting expensive in tickets. (Fortunately not in lives. When we're young, some of us don't think too clearly.) My shifter kart costs $250 a day to run not including tracks fees, wrecks, breakage, travel and lodging.
When LFS came out, it took all of a week to realize that what I'm doing in my living room is EXACTLY what I'm doing on the race track in my kart. Minus a few Gs here and there. I'm competing (I use that term loosely and relatively.) against other drivers. I'm competing against myself. I'm learning how to manipulate physics. I am studying where I make choices under pressure.
Forgive me for saying, GPL just didn't do it. I was haggered by having to translate what I know about driving into the computer model. Same with all the others, GP4, STCC, NR2003... just didn't feel right. NFS? lol The others, rFactor, and (what was that?) racer? not quite lol. Haven't tried iRacing.
LFS is not just a realistic racing simulator. It's racing software. Based on road racing four wheeled automobiles. NFS, whatever it simulates, it's not that.
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
Post your CTRA alternatives.
Haven't been around in a few months. Bad mobo. Before I left it was CTRA and LOTA exclusively for like a year. Come back and people are screaming bloody murder. Well I had fun tonight on LFS. My suggestions:
1. Scope leagues. They are a gas. Both in real life, and LFS.
2. Post the names of servers where you've had fun. There are a lot of servers out there. If you dug CTRA, there are races a plenty.
League Of the Americas. I've had a gas in the leagues they run. Right now I'm busy on leagues nights or I'd be signing up for everything.
Cone Dodgers. I prefer the open wheels, but these servers are great. Did a few laps at CD 1 in the XRR. Love that car. The drivers at CD are fantastic. (Sorry about dropping in on that league race kids.)
Cone Dodgers 6 was set up for FBM at Aston North today. Killer combo. I stayed a while. No one else showed up. I will certainly spend more time there.
Aleajecta FBM Class E. Wow. FBM at Blackwood. 45 laps. I had a couple of excellent races here. Really cool crew on the track. Solid racers. Mature. And of course the always entertaining passers by. "Restart! I'm here now!"
1. Scope leagues. They are a gas. Both in real life, and LFS.
2. Post the names of servers where you've had fun. There are a lot of servers out there. If you dug CTRA, there are races a plenty.
League Of the Americas. I've had a gas in the leagues they run. Right now I'm busy on leagues nights or I'd be signing up for everything.
Cone Dodgers. I prefer the open wheels, but these servers are great. Did a few laps at CD 1 in the XRR. Love that car. The drivers at CD are fantastic. (Sorry about dropping in on that league race kids.)
Cone Dodgers 6 was set up for FBM at Aston North today. Killer combo. I stayed a while. No one else showed up. I will certainly spend more time there.
Aleajecta FBM Class E. Wow. FBM at Blackwood. 45 laps. I had a couple of excellent races here. Really cool crew on the track. Solid racers. Mature. And of course the always entertaining passers by. "Restart! I'm here now!"
You design work is fantastic.
I second these suggestions. In depth interview with RmachucaA please. And some sweet track guides.
I second these suggestions. In depth interview with RmachucaA please. And some sweet track guides.
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
I too, see little difference in my times with a variety of sets. So I just go for what's comfortable. Something I can drive for an hour on end without making too many mistakes. I also try for a set that recovers easily from the mistakes I am most prone to make at a given track. Lastly, I do work with the tires a bit. You know, pit strategy, get to the the checkered.
(Bearing in mind that my performance is well down the list.)
<<Originally Posted by Kaw - They say he [Pallu] married Pamela Anderson, but divorced her because she couldnt get under 1.41.00 @ AS3 - XRR>>
Fer cyrin' out loud. I'm slower than Pamela Anderson.
(Bearing in mind that my performance is well down the list.)
<<Originally Posted by Kaw - They say he [Pallu] married Pamela Anderson, but divorced her because she couldnt get under 1.41.00 @ AS3 - XRR>>
Fer cyrin' out loud. I'm slower than Pamela Anderson.
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
Dadnabbit. I missed the beta. I looked at the ms site but can't figure out when it releases. Anyone know?
I completely and utterly fail to understand how more realism could possibly garner complaints. And this from a guy who has no clutch pedal and can't upshift the FBM under any circumstances. (Ok, it's not that bad, but it's bad. My TSW has no buttons, I switched to momo which I don't like so I could clutch.) I do feel it's easier to shift a real car without clutch because you can feel the gears in your foot, but not many race vehicles are designed to be shifted like that.
The only realism I'm really missing in LFS I know is coming at some point. Transmission damage, Spa, weather, the Ring, night, Jerez, engine damage, Monaco, ...
The ENTIRE reason I drive LFS is for the realism. Keep up the good work. It gets better all the time. I've never been as happy with any software. It's not even software to me any more. (Until my mobo gets a short or something, in or related to the video pipe and it won't run. Then it's painfully obvious.)
The only realism I'm really missing in LFS I know is coming at some point. Transmission damage, Spa, weather, the Ring, night, Jerez, engine damage, Monaco, ...
The ENTIRE reason I drive LFS is for the realism. Keep up the good work. It gets better all the time. I've never been as happy with any software. It's not even software to me any more. (Until my mobo gets a short or something, in or related to the video pipe and it won't run. Then it's painfully obvious.)
I know you don't know me. But I know a little of your work and greatly admire your knowledge, dedication, and generosity. That being said...
Car simulator. (check) Track simulator. (check) Driving simulator. (check) Racing simulator. (Eeerrr!) Wrong.
It's racing software. That is, if you are referring to LFS.
Which I will race on again as soon as I get a new mobo.
Car simulator. (check) Track simulator. (check) Driving simulator. (check) Racing simulator. (Eeerrr!) Wrong.
It's racing software. That is, if you are referring to LFS.
Which I will race on again as soon as I get a new mobo.
I was watching F1 avidly during that era. While I don't like Shuey because of his tendency to cheat; ramming, fuels, illegal chassis heights, and the like were common - he did drive very well.
Spa 98. After Coulthard took out most of the field, that race, Shuey passed Hill under braking coming down into the bus stop. He must have been going 140mph sideways in a monsoon. It was quite the moment.
Hungaroring 98 he did some 20 odd qualifying laps trying catch Hill in the pits. It was amazing. Wheels off at every corner.
Those two at least are worth a look.
It's also a good idea to find and watch races of the preceding decade. Those men were amazing. Senna, Mansell, Prost, Patrese, heck... even Berger. I remember Alesi setting fast laps at Magny. Only car on slicks, in a downpour. Senna drove qualifiers most of his career... Mansell WAS the Lion.
Ah... memories...
When I'm in a heated race I chew the sides of my tongue off.
Since I started racing on SS2 I can't taste wine anymore.
Since I started racing on SS2 I can't taste wine anymore.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG