There is no comparison. Bob's sets will make a lot less people get discouraged. They should be in the demo for sure.
At this point in time the physics in LFS are not done. It is important to be very careful with tire cambers and pressure. If the camber is too high, the car gets over commited laterally without much in the way of feedback to you, the driver. The fronts are especially important because when the front get's over commited you can't tell until it's too late. (Sometimes too late is at the very moment you turn the steering wheel.) I understand keyboarding is a chore, but less camber, especially in the front, and less rear pressure will help A LOT!
Disco, then no master server until shut down and re LFS S2
About three days ago I started having this problem. When I disco, I can't reconnect to the master server until I shut down LFS and restart it.
Any ideas?
Any ideas?
That replay looks really bad... But a life time ban? Taking away someones paid license? It's going to have to be preceded by a replay that's at least blatant as that one. Then, first, a written warning with a demand for explanation. (To gauge the headspace of the clown(s) pulling that junk.) Maybe a three strikes rule? Those two may get their heads together when threatened with permanent supension. And who's going to have that nasty responsibility? I think Scavier have better things to do with thier time than police idiots like that. (Naturally, one would be permitted to buy another license.... and get it taken again... and buy another.... )
As far as auto kick/ban goes, can't happen. Honest mistakes would be penalized.
To the racers in the race - Looking good! That was a swell race up to a point.
To the wreckers - Hope your having a good laugh. When you lose your license, you can LAN and wreck into each other 'til the cows come home. Which, by the way, you should have found an empty server and done that anyway. Cause now you're screwed.
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
CanAm, karts, and downhill skateboarding.
It's OK, when Tristan talks, it can be interesting.
BUT!
For the love of Pete, he's got to change back to the helmet avatar. He's scaring the kids.
I guess you have to do it. It is absolutely the most serene, one-on-one-with-nature sport I've tried. When I'm bombing up the straight at WE INT in my FRR, the wind roaring in my ears, it really reminds me of DH. Cut the engine noise, add the thrill of no conventional brakes, and 6 man heats... You handle a skateboard exactly the same way you handle a car, but without drive to the wheels. Oversteer, understeer, drafting, strategy, and the will to go to the limit is what it's all about.
Let's put it this way. I dragged in LFS for all of half an hour two years ago. Done with that. I'd be racing DH every night.
As a stand alone, I can see it won't be a sale item. But as an additional 'car', well... word would get around and there would be at least a few who would only skate in the sim.
Not a different project. Just another 4 wheel vehicle in the garage. You know... S4, or something...
A new Sim for the DEVs?
LFS seems to have all the necessary physical goop, although... I'm not the guy to know that....
Could be controlled with only mouse and keboard. Here's what you need:
It's a life style, so falls squarely into the "Live For Speed" category. Having just placed 8th at the U.S. Nationals downhill pro division, I know a few guys who are the best in the world, and one in particular that would go ape nutty to work with you on it. The skateboard industry, especially downhill, is really grass roots. Liscencing would be a no money venture. The guys I know would be happy just to have their gear represented in public.
With mouse control, every kid in the world would download it.
Could be controlled with only mouse and keboard. Here's what you need:
- Gravity and a downhill track
- Tire physics that could model urothane tread, tire hardness, tire width, tire diameter, and wheel core diameters (Tire physics could be a trip because different wheels have square or rounded edges for grip or slidability, offset centers for same, or hollowed out outside edges for flex pattern.)
- Two axles that pivot at different degrees, setable
- Two bushings for each axle, changable stiffness and preload
- Wheel base and ride height
- The ability to push start (key)
- Front and rear foot pressue (mouse)
- Lateral pressure for both feet (mouse)
- Three different tucks and stand up, adjustable (key)
- Left or right, or left and right arm positioning, adjustable (key)
- Aero for different tucks, air braking, and drafting
- Lean turns or rail grab turns (key to grab)
- Pressure for hands on ground, adjustable (thereby taking weight of the wheels for sliding) (key)
It's a life style, so falls squarely into the "Live For Speed" category. Having just placed 8th at the U.S. Nationals downhill pro division, I know a few guys who are the best in the world, and one in particular that would go ape nutty to work with you on it. The skateboard industry, especially downhill, is really grass roots. Liscencing would be a no money venture. The guys I know would be happy just to have their gear represented in public.
With mouse control, every kid in the world would download it.
Limiting blocking manuevers is not a great answer as it can get in the way of dicing and leads to insane replay analysis by clerk of the course in case of an infraction.
In my GPL leagues I had a full damage/no protest rules in place. If there was some problem on the track, the drivers needed to work it out between themselves. This led to a really tight knit community of drivers who knew each other very well, and practiced maturity on and off the track. We practiced together prior to race day to learn each others tactics, and we all raced clean and hard. I have video of me and a guy I was used to driving with going 14 laps side by side almost every corner at Mid Ohio. That performance would not have held up to any rules, anywhere. We both agree it was our most exciting and fulfilling GPL race ever. The league had many dices at places like Rouen and the Ring. The mentality of the drivers on the whole led us to that.
The standing rule for acceptable driving was that if a COC reviewed a race and found you at fault, a replay and description of percieved infraction was sent with a one race suspended ban. Warning two led to the ban. Warning three led to expulsion from the league.
We never expelled anyone. Although one git with a bit of the red mist did get a ban at one point. :-) (My favorite competitor, 3 tenths slower, as wide as a house... )
...and whattyoo got against CRC? Those rules are perfectly acceptable in any form of racing. I think they stand up universally.
In my GPL leagues I had a full damage/no protest rules in place. If there was some problem on the track, the drivers needed to work it out between themselves. This led to a really tight knit community of drivers who knew each other very well, and practiced maturity on and off the track. We practiced together prior to race day to learn each others tactics, and we all raced clean and hard. I have video of me and a guy I was used to driving with going 14 laps side by side almost every corner at Mid Ohio. That performance would not have held up to any rules, anywhere. We both agree it was our most exciting and fulfilling GPL race ever. The league had many dices at places like Rouen and the Ring. The mentality of the drivers on the whole led us to that.
The standing rule for acceptable driving was that if a COC reviewed a race and found you at fault, a replay and description of percieved infraction was sent with a one race suspended ban. Warning two led to the ban. Warning three led to expulsion from the league.
We never expelled anyone. Although one git with a bit of the red mist did get a ban at one point. :-) (My favorite competitor, 3 tenths slower, as wide as a house... )
...and whattyoo got against CRC? Those rules are perfectly acceptable in any form of racing. I think they stand up universally.
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
I'm really glad I posted this. Two reason's:
1. I've now got four sets of sets that I hadn't found previoulsy. 3 are from a known 'driving feel I like'. Can't wait to try them out.
2. Now I know I'm not nuts when it comes to the physics. I had not previously read certain statements. The lack of which lead me to believe the Devs were on a path to leaving the sim 'as is'.
I will drive the sets soon, thank you Bob, for your efforts. Given the current state of the physics, the setups need to cater to them. Not reality. Even in the end, the same will be true. We're driving LFS, not a RAC or LX6.
I have one other question for you but I'm not precisely sure what it is yet. I'm getting closer and when I do, I'll post two short replays demonstrating what it is I like, and don't.
Correct. But your entire argument is flawed. A race car is tuned to handle the physical demands of it's given class. When it comes to road racing cars that are based on mechnical grip, they are so freaking easy to drive over the limit it's not funny. Everything is smaller and quicker, as you say. The difference being that they are so direct, youd have to be numb from the hairline down not to know what the car is doing. The limit is more norrow. So subtlety is key. If you're smooth and accurate, you can write your name with those things if you have balance. I am, and I do. I don't expect you to believe me on the internet, who the heck am I? But I know what your missing, whether you take my word or not.
I've had terminal understeer at 100mph. I never saw it coming. (You do reduce your numbness eventually, starting with getting in and driving.) I went in too fast by a few of mph, steered too much, too quickly, didn't lift enough, and paid the price - skipping through gravel and having to clean out my air box and replace a plastic tube. The BIG question is... in the same situation, how do you think a sports car would've faired? A family sedan? There are many other mistakes I've driven through with glee that I guarantee you, in the same situation a road car would have been death.
After saying all that, it's also important to realise that a four wheel, rear drive vehicle is a four wheel, rear drive vehicle. They all handle the same. I personally prefer the racing breed. All that waiting around to see what a road car is doing makes me nervous. The thing that I'm on about is the extremities. My hands and feet. They are trained to do certain things in certain situations. Things that always work, within reasonable limits. In certain situations in LFS, the extremities are doing... well... seriously? Next to nothing. Up, down? Just doesn't do what I expect. Bob's LX6 set gave me a lot of realisitc response to realistic inputs that I've never experienced in LFS before. It was an eye opener. Both in that the physics are darn close, and the sets exploit what isn't. Sorry for being Mr. Munsty, but before that, I really didn't believe LFS was going to be able to simulate rear drive. Now all my rear drive sets are getting better. (I'm starting to learn how to set up a car, at least in LFS.) But the defaults left me - as someone who doesn't know much about setup - unconvinced.
As far as what we can do in a sim... well, I have no problem knowing exactly how much grip is left on each tire in GP4 and you don't see that chassis moving a whole lot.
Maybe not. Because reality updates much more frequently than computer and you can't simulate everything anyway. But that is certainly the way to do it. It's called A/B comparison and it works. Whether the setups match or not is of no importance. How much the thing dives with a certain amount of steer angle and braking... is. It would certainly lead to ideas of where to change the physics, but maybe not directly from the settings.
1. I've now got four sets of sets that I hadn't found previoulsy. 3 are from a known 'driving feel I like'. Can't wait to try them out.
2. Now I know I'm not nuts when it comes to the physics. I had not previously read certain statements. The lack of which lead me to believe the Devs were on a path to leaving the sim 'as is'.
I will drive the sets soon, thank you Bob, for your efforts. Given the current state of the physics, the setups need to cater to them. Not reality. Even in the end, the same will be true. We're driving LFS, not a RAC or LX6.
I have one other question for you but I'm not precisely sure what it is yet. I'm getting closer and when I do, I'll post two short replays demonstrating what it is I like, and don't.
Correct. But your entire argument is flawed. A race car is tuned to handle the physical demands of it's given class. When it comes to road racing cars that are based on mechnical grip, they are so freaking easy to drive over the limit it's not funny. Everything is smaller and quicker, as you say. The difference being that they are so direct, youd have to be numb from the hairline down not to know what the car is doing. The limit is more norrow. So subtlety is key. If you're smooth and accurate, you can write your name with those things if you have balance. I am, and I do. I don't expect you to believe me on the internet, who the heck am I? But I know what your missing, whether you take my word or not.
I've had terminal understeer at 100mph. I never saw it coming. (You do reduce your numbness eventually, starting with getting in and driving.) I went in too fast by a few of mph, steered too much, too quickly, didn't lift enough, and paid the price - skipping through gravel and having to clean out my air box and replace a plastic tube. The BIG question is... in the same situation, how do you think a sports car would've faired? A family sedan? There are many other mistakes I've driven through with glee that I guarantee you, in the same situation a road car would have been death.
After saying all that, it's also important to realise that a four wheel, rear drive vehicle is a four wheel, rear drive vehicle. They all handle the same. I personally prefer the racing breed. All that waiting around to see what a road car is doing makes me nervous. The thing that I'm on about is the extremities. My hands and feet. They are trained to do certain things in certain situations. Things that always work, within reasonable limits. In certain situations in LFS, the extremities are doing... well... seriously? Next to nothing. Up, down? Just doesn't do what I expect. Bob's LX6 set gave me a lot of realisitc response to realistic inputs that I've never experienced in LFS before. It was an eye opener. Both in that the physics are darn close, and the sets exploit what isn't. Sorry for being Mr. Munsty, but before that, I really didn't believe LFS was going to be able to simulate rear drive. Now all my rear drive sets are getting better. (I'm starting to learn how to set up a car, at least in LFS.) But the defaults left me - as someone who doesn't know much about setup - unconvinced.
As far as what we can do in a sim... well, I have no problem knowing exactly how much grip is left on each tire in GP4 and you don't see that chassis moving a whole lot.
Maybe not. Because reality updates much more frequently than computer and you can't simulate everything anyway. But that is certainly the way to do it. It's called A/B comparison and it works. Whether the setups match or not is of no importance. How much the thing dives with a certain amount of steer angle and braking... is. It would certainly lead to ideas of where to change the physics, but maybe not directly from the settings.
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
My extraction of your road going LX6 is doing very consistent 1.34s with 60% fuel at Fe Gold. Got a 1.33.32 in it. I'm sure many drivers could do much better. It's very stable and transmits it's intentions well. Balance is balance and your feel is what lead me to realise the LX6 was drivable. I simply tried to maintain ratios the whole way down.
I have one mistake in which I didn't match spring rate well. The car drives the whole way with the suspension bottomed out. Still handles like a dream. It drifts the whole way but you can aim it with ease.
Let me ask you this, if you don't mind sharing some of your knowledge publically. When I get the default LX6 in to a rear end pitch, it seems like the whole car tilts over the front, then I apply opposite lock, an amount that I'm guessing should be correct, I get no feedback, so I hold and hold and hold, then POW... the thing snaps back and I'm in the rail. I never see (feel) the grip coming on at the front until it's too late. (Of course, once it fails to respond I would assume I'm also flinging pedals and making the situation worse.)
So why does the super soft road going setup seem to have such excellent "readability"? I always correct the right amount. I always know when to lift or puch it and by how much. It's not only that it's slower as I've had that thing in some really violent, really sudden slides that I drive out of real nicely. Is it purely grip?
I have one mistake in which I didn't match spring rate well. The car drives the whole way with the suspension bottomed out. Still handles like a dream. It drifts the whole way but you can aim it with ease.
Let me ask you this, if you don't mind sharing some of your knowledge publically. When I get the default LX6 in to a rear end pitch, it seems like the whole car tilts over the front, then I apply opposite lock, an amount that I'm guessing should be correct, I get no feedback, so I hold and hold and hold, then POW... the thing snaps back and I'm in the rail. I never see (feel) the grip coming on at the front until it's too late. (Of course, once it fails to respond I would assume I'm also flinging pedals and making the situation worse.)
So why does the super soft road going setup seem to have such excellent "readability"? I always correct the right amount. I always know when to lift or puch it and by how much. It's not only that it's slower as I've had that thing in some really violent, really sudden slides that I drive out of real nicely. Is it purely grip?
I'll get in on this.
TSW Sport, circa 1998. (Hmm... what would have prompted the move from TM?) I'm dead serious when I say it feels *exactly* like it did the day I got it. 4 or 5 sets of spec pots - TSW sent me some lever arms that they liked better than the stock ones, though I never had a problem - had one spring retainer break after 5 years, TSW replaced that - never misses a shift - a couple drops of oil every couple years - smooth as buttah.
Every once in a while I call to ask if I should upgrade to this or that. So far they've talked me out of spending money I don't need to a couple of times. They are dead honest about what it is thier products will or won't do. When they say a certain pot will last a year, they mean it.
What more can I say?
TSW Sport, circa 1998. (Hmm... what would have prompted the move from TM?) I'm dead serious when I say it feels *exactly* like it did the day I got it. 4 or 5 sets of spec pots - TSW sent me some lever arms that they liked better than the stock ones, though I never had a problem - had one spring retainer break after 5 years, TSW replaced that - never misses a shift - a couple drops of oil every couple years - smooth as buttah.
Every once in a while I call to ask if I should upgrade to this or that. So far they've talked me out of spending money I don't need to a couple of times. They are dead honest about what it is thier products will or won't do. When they say a certain pot will last a year, they mean it.
What more can I say?
Yes. And that makes me wonder, if it's a mixture of both setups and physics, then wouldn't it be critical to get some *really* friendly sets on certain cars? I personally believe that LFS has all that is neccesary to *feel* the car. So the other two are highly suspect in my accessment.
BOB!
Where, oh where do I get those setups?!
One day I was at Fe Gold in LX6. This guy pops in and starts running around in an LX6 with a passenger. His laps did not look like any I had seen in LFS. His lines, the way he set up corners, the way the car drifted and oversteered. It looked real! Not stiff and hesitant like most LX6 laps. I asked him for the set, he gave, and explained, "It's one of those 'road going' ones you get at the forum."
Let me explain something about myself. I like to play with rear wheel drive. I drive at the limit daily. In the winter I do about 400 corners a day, wet or dry, or snowy, as quickly as I can because there is no traffic or side roads on my way to work. (I work 7,000 feet above where I live.) I race kart and stock sports car when I can. If there are a few things I love, it's loading up the front of the car with a tap on the brakes and letting the rear come around; using throttle to rotate a car that is on a tangentile trajectory; the ever so thrilling four wheel drift; trailing throttle oversteer; trailing lock oversteer by dumping a gear at turn-in; power on oversteer by dumping a gear with excessive revs that quickly mutates to comprehensive terminal understeer toward the shoulder of the road.... did I mention oversteer?
The road going LX6 set that you probably made is the most balanced beautiful piece of work I've seen. It drives like a real car, and when you goof, or panic, or just plain lose the plot... the extremities do what they do, and the car does what a real RWD car *should* do in response. I love hucking that thing at corners just to see what it will do. I *know* when it's stepping out, and I *know* when it's coming back, and I *know* when it aint coming back.
I've successfully lowered it and maintained about 80% of it's "seat of the pants" feel and controllability for racing. More where that came from would be a godsend.
Thank you.
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
Default Setups
Maybe this isn't the time or place. But I've been sitting on it for a while now. Please bear with me for a minute. I actually have a point. Or maybe it's a question.
I have, for a long time, had a problem with the physics. The single most frustrating thing being the RWDs spinning at turn in. Next, the mid corner spinning. Then the car loading up and not resonding to corrective input in a manner that represents real life. The old right foot just doesn't do what it should over the limit. I'm starting to wonder if it's more setup than physics. (Forget GUI/AUI/FUI for now, those are NOT a factor.)
I've recently been driving the LX6. I've tried no less than 20 setups, maybe even 30. All of them except one, dealt with the problem by making the rear of the car smushy by comparison to the front which was always too hard or mute. Thus, forcing the driving style to become heavily proactive. Then, when it went over, there was no getting it back. All of my LFS heros use really unrealistic LX6 setups that have major flaws. When I say unrealistic, I mean you wouldn't race 60 laps under pressure with much chance for success.
I have no problem learning the limits of a car and driving under them. But in real life it's about hanging out on the edge. I'm not so concerned with under the limit. I'm talking about how the cars act on and over the limit. LFS seemed illusive in that regard.
Real cars are much easier to handle at 9/10ths and 11/10ths. Especially racing breads. What I mean by that is, there is no wondering at 9/10ths whether or not the thing is going to stick. At 11/10ths there is always some inidcation of what the car is going to do, so one can muscle it back into shape. 10/10ths is another story altogether, but the race breads are certainly easier to deal with at 11/10ths. (Keep in mind I am not talking about fatal mistakes. I am talking about progressive slides or other reasonable situations that should fall to easily to hand.)
Why is this important? Because in racing situations we make mistakes. In LFS I frequently lose 0.5s where I should have only lost 0.1 because I'm flinging wheel and pedals trying to figure out what it wants.
One setup for the LX6 comes along and all of the sudden it handles like a real car. Throttle, brake, and steer inputs magically do what I expect. I would say it's a balanced car. No neutral throttle turn-in oversteer. No mid corner loss of grip, or at least, when it does, you can drive out of it. Throttle rotation is not only possible, it's effective and gleeful! No excessive understeer. The rear is solid and snappy. (Relative to the marque, anyway.) And I can gather the thing up when I step over the limit. Heck, I can dowright drive the thing sideways at racing speeds.
So... Why are the default setups like they are? Even the FO8 is ridiculously touchy at what should be reasonably grippy speeds. Is it physics or simply setup? Should a car that has 10mm to much ride height or 0.2 degrees negative camber be so evil? Is that how it is in real cars? I don't know, seriously. But I have a mid engine sports car that gets pretty weird if the rear alignment is out. Nonetheless, I don't hit things before I get a chance to visit the mechanic.
There are some really good setups out there. Why aren't they defaults? Wouldn't that give the beginner (meaning anyone who drives a certain marque for the first time) a better impression?
I have, for a long time, had a problem with the physics. The single most frustrating thing being the RWDs spinning at turn in. Next, the mid corner spinning. Then the car loading up and not resonding to corrective input in a manner that represents real life. The old right foot just doesn't do what it should over the limit. I'm starting to wonder if it's more setup than physics. (Forget GUI/AUI/FUI for now, those are NOT a factor.)
I've recently been driving the LX6. I've tried no less than 20 setups, maybe even 30. All of them except one, dealt with the problem by making the rear of the car smushy by comparison to the front which was always too hard or mute. Thus, forcing the driving style to become heavily proactive. Then, when it went over, there was no getting it back. All of my LFS heros use really unrealistic LX6 setups that have major flaws. When I say unrealistic, I mean you wouldn't race 60 laps under pressure with much chance for success.
I have no problem learning the limits of a car and driving under them. But in real life it's about hanging out on the edge. I'm not so concerned with under the limit. I'm talking about how the cars act on and over the limit. LFS seemed illusive in that regard.
Real cars are much easier to handle at 9/10ths and 11/10ths. Especially racing breads. What I mean by that is, there is no wondering at 9/10ths whether or not the thing is going to stick. At 11/10ths there is always some inidcation of what the car is going to do, so one can muscle it back into shape. 10/10ths is another story altogether, but the race breads are certainly easier to deal with at 11/10ths. (Keep in mind I am not talking about fatal mistakes. I am talking about progressive slides or other reasonable situations that should fall to easily to hand.)
Why is this important? Because in racing situations we make mistakes. In LFS I frequently lose 0.5s where I should have only lost 0.1 because I'm flinging wheel and pedals trying to figure out what it wants.
One setup for the LX6 comes along and all of the sudden it handles like a real car. Throttle, brake, and steer inputs magically do what I expect. I would say it's a balanced car. No neutral throttle turn-in oversteer. No mid corner loss of grip, or at least, when it does, you can drive out of it. Throttle rotation is not only possible, it's effective and gleeful! No excessive understeer. The rear is solid and snappy. (Relative to the marque, anyway.) And I can gather the thing up when I step over the limit. Heck, I can dowright drive the thing sideways at racing speeds.
So... Why are the default setups like they are? Even the FO8 is ridiculously touchy at what should be reasonably grippy speeds. Is it physics or simply setup? Should a car that has 10mm to much ride height or 0.2 degrees negative camber be so evil? Is that how it is in real cars? I don't know, seriously. But I have a mid engine sports car that gets pretty weird if the rear alignment is out. Nonetheless, I don't hit things before I get a chance to visit the mechanic.
There are some really good setups out there. Why aren't they defaults? Wouldn't that give the beginner (meaning anyone who drives a certain marque for the first time) a better impression?
Jardier! My Friend!
Actually, I doubt you remember me. But I remember you.
Your FOX set has made LFS 100% better for me.
Thanks!
Actually, I doubt you remember me. But I remember you.
Your FOX set has made LFS 100% better for me.
Thanks!
Besides just number of laps, perhaps the HLVC system can also be incorperated. I've seen plenty of cats online who can't finish a single lap in the FO8, yet run it for a half hour on public servers anyway. (I wouldn't mind seeing black flags attached to the HLVC system.)
On the other hand, it's about having fun. Go to your local skatepark. There you will see hundreds of skaters who attempt the most insanely hard tricks over and over and NEVER land a single one. Ever! That's how they spend thier afternoons, and they'll be back the next day to not skate again. Why? Because they're having fun.
Some people prefer to ride 3 minutes at a time and land as many tricks as possible, flowing and getting weightless. Some prefer to ride 8 seconds at a time and look like the guy on TV for 0.3 seconds before thier skateboard goes flying across the concrete.
Who's having more fun?
On the other hand, it's about having fun. Go to your local skatepark. There you will see hundreds of skaters who attempt the most insanely hard tricks over and over and NEVER land a single one. Ever! That's how they spend thier afternoons, and they'll be back the next day to not skate again. Why? Because they're having fun.
Some people prefer to ride 3 minutes at a time and land as many tricks as possible, flowing and getting weightless. Some prefer to ride 8 seconds at a time and look like the guy on TV for 0.3 seconds before thier skateboard goes flying across the concrete.
Who's having more fun?
Last edited by Slartibartfast, .
When I'm at my friends houses I just sneak onto thier computers and download the demo. Then when they ask, "What's this LFS on my computer?" I say, "Hey, you can use a mouse on that." Has worked at least once.
Also, I work from home part of the year. My clients come in groups. When one or more is not working with us I sit them at the wheel. They go nuts for it.
Also, I work from home part of the year. My clients come in groups. When one or more is not working with us I sit them at the wheel. They go nuts for it.
Just so long as I don't have to replace my tranny in 8,000 miles....
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG