Quote from evans :

First of all, if you, as the leader of the race, get pissed off because the other drivers vote for a restart, well then maybe you shouldn't be leading in the first place, should you? What I mean is, if you fear the restart, maybe you didn't really earn the place you're in.

Second, I do realize that restarting 2-3 times for every completed race gets annoying, but it's to secure that the race gets going with as large a pack as possible, which leads me onto the third and final thing. There really is nothing more boring and anticlimactic than winning a race with only a tenth of the starters left - and even worse, they're spread all over the track with huge gaps in between. Didn't we come here to race?

I'm usually pretty good at escaping the turn one trouble, but I hate to see my competition just disappear completely, because they got tangled up in some stupid incident and people don't want to restart. Hell, sometimes I even vote for a restart myself, even though I might be leading.

I'll say it again: If you fear the restart, maybe you shouldn't be in your position in the first place.

Don't fear the reap.. erh, the restart!

Then you have invited the wrong people to your competition. People have to learn, that agressive starts is punished. That you don`t do with restarts allowed

So there should not be any fear of restarts, because the option should be turned off ! As simple as that

EDIT:
A spelling error was corrected

Last edited by alland44, Tue 24 Jul 2007, 14:32.

Hallo people !

There should be absolutely no restarts. Once the race is on, it`s on
If someone has caused problems in the start - Punish him/them instead.

BTW restarts in Lfs often are for the "incrowd" - When they are not in the lead - They whine restart all the time. When they have a start that suits them, then they don`t care about all the chrashes in the back of the pack.

read "incrowd" as them who rules the specific server.

restarts are for whiners

I can see only one situation, where restarts are relevant. If you are only 3 or 4 drivers on a server, and the most drivers crashes in the T1 - Then it`s plausible. I allways let the race leader decide, whether there should be at restart or not

I know racers which will not show up, on a server with restarts allowed.

I am absolutely for = NO RESTARTS - At all !

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Well what I am really saying is that you'll find anecdotal "data" in the mouths of everyone with respect to vehicle dynamics whether they've driven any level of vehicle on the street or track or not. In my experience humans tend to process the same sensory input in a multitude of fashions, just like your audiophile analogy. As an audiophile one could start comparing waveforms of live performances versus a recording and so forth, which would be much more objective (although impractical obviously for lots of reasons, but this is all for the take of illustration) than audiophile Bob arguing with audiophile Tristan over which one sounds better "to them".

I beleive that a sim should not aim to recreate the feeling of driving / racing, but rather aim for the most accurate possible objective representation regardless of the feeling. Theoretically they should meet somewhere, but that's not necessarily the case for each individual right off the bat. LFS has tons of doodads present to aid one in the "feeling" department - adjustment of head movement on every axis based on G forces, FOV adjustment, controller adjustment and whatnot.... With an accurate representation, OR an inaccurate one, eventually your brain will start to "calibrate" itself to the subjective feeling your discern from a said sim. Of course, certain things just don't make physical sense in some sims (different things from sim to sim it seems) and that's a different topic I suppose.

You are using false terms, my friend
Audiophiles don`t live a subjective life. HiFi is very objective, because it`s trying to recreate the IRL experience, at home

You can`t argue about the sound of a violin or cello ! Either its the real sound, or it`s not

Audiophiles uses a lot of money, to get the "real deal" and your argument is the thinnest I`ve ever seen.

If you leave out the term "Audiophile" and put in young people - Then I can accept your reasoning Young ppl give a shit about the quality of sound, as long as it`s high, and there iss a hell lot of base

That`s the same with Lfs and Rfactor. Lfs is classical music and Rfactor is poprock, with noise guitars

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Most of any physics engine is really not that complicated - inertia, weight transfer, force, mass blah blah blah. Stuff that if you get wrong, you shouldn't be designing a sim to begin with. The acceleration gravity imposes is 9.81m/s/s - that sort of thing. Note I'm not saying dreadfully simple, but rather information that is easy to understand and implement if you have the background.

The problem comes with the physics of tire modelling - how tires interact with the road, how they respond under different loads, and how they behave in a variety of different situations. Of course, that is an extremely dynamic problem, and data is not widely available or easy to obtain regarding the more intricate secrets of the subject. Tire modelling is the crux of any physics engine (well, for driving sims :razz

There are a few things that make the LFS tire modelling stand out:
1) Tire flex is modelled. Not just mathematically, but even graphically. This allows for the deformation of the tires in real time. Try experimenting with different tire pressures and note how it affects handling, and how the tires respond to different pressures.

2) The lateral slip behaviour of the tires is much more accurate. Exceeding the lateral limit of grip generally imposes an unwelcome and physically inaccurate unrecoverable slide in ISI sims. This has been discussed at length here on the forum, and generally speaking a dropoff in lateral force does not occur when moving past the peak slip angle for a given road car tire. No publically (and arguably any proprietary) available data shows as drastic of a dropoff as is present. Some data that a member dug up showed a comparably mild drop off with very high camber (-9 degrees) but this is very unusual. This is IMO the largest problem you'll encounter in those sims. To counter, LFS currently has some issues with longitudinal grip at very (very) high slip ratios. It's likely based on developer comments that this is being rectified. Many other sims behave that way though, as the myth of drop-off on lateral grip curves has been around for decades - and is only now being discovered to be false.

3) LFS has a universal physical model which means that the tire calcs are done through a set of proprietary formulae, and are the same for each vehicle. The physics engine handles the properties of each car in the game in the same way. ISI sims have separate physics "files" for vehicles which in my opinion shows that the nature of the physics engine is subpar, since numbers must be "fudged" in order to get the desired response. This was also discussed at length on the RSC forums, and here.

4) The heat modelling on the tires in LFS is also very interesting in that it allows for flatspots. Wear and temperature and done very nicely in LFS, where there tire is divided up into 48 sampling areas per tire (1 around and 3 across) - plus sidewalls and internal air temp.

All of these things allow for a much more dyanamic tyre modelling system. I'm not saying it's perfect, but the local expert (who happens to be writing his own sim, and has writen others in the past) who plays all sims also agrees that the end result of the LFS tire model is the best out there at the moment, save for possibly his own and another unreleased pseudo-secret project (perhaps you've heard of Racing Legends).

There's a plethora of other reasons why LFS is my sim of choice, but I think tire modelling is the most important reason, and most related to your original question.

I would say. Center of gravity is not moving, therefore it`s a question about momentum, when you calculate a car, moving, braking or whatever it does

Offcourse tyres and springs, are variables, but the car is a simple box with fixed center of gravity.

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

Gracias Chanoman

All I can say is what I feel, and Im intrigued to see why some people feel different about the same issue. One reason that can make fans of any game to feel that other games are "wrong" is that they are simply accustomed to a particular physics engine.

As far as I can tell, the only measure of realism we can get would be making double blind tests. We should pick up people from the street, that meet some criteria (they drive a car, love races and know nothing about PCs simulations for example). Then we should take them to a place in which the computer will start either LFS or rFactor (or some other game) without the researchers knowing if the subject are driving one or the other.


Then a list of questions are answered by the subjects, regarding physics qualities like inertia, weight transfer, feedback to the wheel, continuity of trajectories, etc. etc.

For me, this would be the only way to determine which one feels more "real".

NO !

We gotta test IRL racedrivers
Ppl who knows everything about racing a car

Quote from srdsprinter :

What motor you got in there(is it a 'true' R500)? And why does the picture look mirrored?

Edit -> and why do you have a monitor on top there?

The monitor is for the forced view, mate
That`s the whole point.


And yes - I reversed the car, to fit the screen
(The screens direction - The one sitting on the bonnet/hood)

There was a drawing, which showed us the custom views
It contained som big faults, but what if we took the FCV and made a picture of that

I did it, and now let me hear from the FCV fanboys, if there is any faults here

Now you can see my point of view

I have just updated my Rfactor, with Le Mans and Audi R8. I also got the new megane mod, and tried it out yesterday

I really don`t like the way cars "feel" in rfactor, and yes I have got the real feel patch. Every time i come back to Lfs, from Rfactor, it`s like comming home

Rfactor is working your eyes and Gfx, where Lfs is working your cpu and brains

The feeling in Lfs is just so much, much better

I`m back

I tried this FCV, 30 minutes this evening (If you can`t beat them, join them) On As Club, i was only 2/10 of my hotlap PB in Xfg. Lx4 is still hopeless, but I beat my hotlap in Xrg, with 2/10.

Xrg is easier to drive FCV, I guess I certainly will test more, the coming days, in the other cars. But - I have no idea, what is happening around me

I now fully understand why so many hit me in open races - You can`t see a damned thing

Quote from Bob Smith :

I think the devs were question about the lack of new rally(cross) content in S2' and said rally content had been dropped from S2 to speed up the release, and it would be added afterwards. We just have to wait and see on the last bit.

I have read, somewhere, that the dev`s intention, is to simulate everything that can move on wheels

I think it was in an interview, given to either the danish, or norwegian community

That opens up, quite a lot of opportunities, as I see it

Well done Renku

Ehhhh !!!
I use custom FOV --> 90 degrees.

Quote from richo :

You still missed the point,
And your still behaving like a child , i dont like this so i,m taking my bat and ball and going home

Personally i cant see many servers closed to "your kind" some leagues maybe but i cant see many servers enforcing it.

****ing storm in a teacup...

/Subject no longer an option - Sorry !

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Which is an advantage - you can see more, you can see the front wheels and exactly where you're placing them. Don't you think that wheels view (and chase view) would be a way to cheat in the current autocross competition?

I can`t answer that. Subject is closed for me
Autocross I accept the forced view in

/OUT !

Quote from richo :

Jesus guys theres 300000000 threads crying for change and when some change comes we have 20000 crying like my 4yr old boy when i tell him its bed time.

How many servers do actually think will enforce it? Truly calm the hell down and put your panties back on..

This reminds me alot when bunnyhopping was nerfed in CS/TFC so many ppl cried that they would stop playing and it was all doom and gloom, now who cares?

Im 49, and certainly no kiddoe
I can`t remember the last time, i cried !? But you can ?

I bougth Lfs, because ONLINERACING was great, and physics blasted the other games away

Look at the poll - 68% is potentially forced view drivers
That gotta reduce my online experience, I think

I will still drive a lot, but I will start doing much more hotlaps, I think.
If I try to find an exciting server nowadays, I seldom find one which fullfill my needs. Now comes forced view, and that is doing no good, from MY point of view

More servers will be "closed", for me and my kind.

With this I leave this subject for good.

/Alland44, a noob, scumbag and with a "cheaters" raceview
Over and out !

EDIT :
And I beg you raceplanners. Please put the forced view thingie first, so we don`t have to read miles and miles of text, to find out, that the race is closed for us Please !

Last edited by alland44, Tue 10 Jul 2007, 00:46.

Quote from Huru-aito :

I understand the people who have temporarily lost their custom views, it's hard to adapt if you need a special setting because of your different hardware or something. But, in general.. Well, i made a picture.

Maby it`s funny, but as a wheelsview driver, I can see you don`t have the sligthtest idea, of what you are expressing.

The view are "sitting", as in forced view - Just without the car body !

Could you make a nice picture of that ??

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Why? We don't need players that fly over cars, adopt the realistic option or leave. I haven't messed with view options, so i don't know can you make cockpit view only to see top of the dashboard, close to the windshield. If there isn't such an option Scawen should make it, so basicaly make Forced IN CAR view, if you wanna kiss the windshield, it's fine, be on the back seat, fine, but it's not fine to fly over the car or lay under the car. You have a HUGE advantage with outside view, it's redicolous, it's not even debatable.
IN CAR view should be forced, not an option, but the fully ajdustable in car view.

I don`t care, what people do, as long as I enjoy racing them

Keyborders aren`t much realistic and mousers too. Lets get rid of all that talk about realism, or shall we kick keyboarders and mousers !??

It`s about choice and enjoyment, which now is being limitated for 32 % of the customers

That`s my point.

Quote from ATHome :

Why don't all of the custom/wheel/chase view drivers don't understand that it's just an server side option, not likely to become a standard in lfs servers ?

Why can`t you understand, that this will limit my options, when choosing a server !?

Yesterday - Everything was available. That is not the case in the future
As simple as that

The poll says 32% is in the same situation. Yep ! Forced view is great

Quote from Avatar13 :

I'm surprised at the reactions to having an option for the game. I would think that those that don't like servers with the option enabled would just play on different servers. I guess I'm just too new at this to get it.

Catch this then.
What you see as an opportunity, I see as a limitation. I will have fewer servers to race on. Is that good for me, and 1/3 of the rest, you think ??



Edit :
It`s hard enough to find a descent server these days, as is.

Quote from ajp71 :

This new option has been very deliberately added by the devs, bringing LFS into line with other sims (which have had this as an option or in some cases no chase at all for years) and community requests.

Thankfully LFS's development is not a democracy and LFS is a racing simulator which any other side shows (like city driving/drifting) have to fit into of course some people will want to hinder the devs plans to remove the remaining arcadey elements of LFS but thankfully it seems Scawen sticks to his decisions, which so far have only been good for the serious racers which LFS is targeting.

It could be the costliest descision he had ever made

Quote from Doorman :

Despite the prophets of doom we spend a great evening of racing fcv. Attendances didn't fall off and no-one complained....I lie; one guy joined, said 'Forced cockpit?', '???', 'Goodbye then' and left. He came back 2 seconds later and said 'A thought, you should advertise it so as not to waste people's time' He'd gone by the time I typed 'It's in the server list marked F'

That was me.
I`m sorry that we`ll never meet again on the tracks

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It's not possible to regulate it, because you can't tell what view someone is using.

Imagine if you said "OK this competition you have to put 50kgs ballast in your car", but didn't actually check - do you think everybody would add all the ballast?

I would sure do it, and we had a series, before the weigth ballast was introduced. We regulated the gas percentage

I`m no cheater and I follow the rules present

Quote from deggis :

Now you got me interested

I know a guy, who drives with sparco gloves.

And I know that a couple of the Danes, drives in the nude - Fully covered with vaseline, in leather seats !

Now that`s kinky

I cant see what why we need it.

If an admin says - No racing here without inview, i would do so, or split
If that`s a rule, I will follow it - It`s as simple as that

I also drive my car, with 2 wheels on the curbes, and dont cross the white lines, in serious races Its a rule !

So.

If the rule of the cup is = Inside view, I would do it Or most likely, not participate

What`s the catch ?

Quote from bbman :

Erm... So how does this add up to this:



THERE is your advantage! When I race in Cockpit-View, I also don't know if I kissed the apex exactly, I can guess where I am through calculating the distances by noting various reference points, but I didn't see it, so I never know! You on the other hand, SEE exactly where your car is and if it loses traction by seeing the skidmarks... Now tell me that this is no advantage...

I have driven with wheelsview, and I don`t see the skidmarks, before i pass the same place again.
And I could hit apex in a bucket. Apex is easy, its the entry point and leaving point, which are really hard

I do not think it is an advantage to drive my way, because i tend to oversteer far to much.

And the fastest I know, all go inview What about that !