Quote from e2mustang :

why would any1 buy a dlc when the community can make mods prolly

It's difficult for the community to make high quality laser-scanned tracks and high quality cars with co-operation and input from the manufacturers.

Quote from Eclipsed :

Found some wi-fi hotspot

Just to be clear, are you attempting to download GBs of updates from a public wi-fi network or are you borrowing it from a neighbour?

Quote from Funnybear :

Firstly, thankyou for lumping me together with the mindless drones. Oh, no, hang on, they would be the ones who think that NO LAW is ever broken by anyone anywhere in the F1 world championships.

No, they would be the ones who are happy to believe unsubstantiated rumours and hearsay as true.

Quote from Funnybear :

But anyway. I base my assertions on the fact I got a mate working for one of the big team who where mildly successful last year and who are based in the Golden Triangle of the Thames valley in the UK.

Ah, so it's one of those "I've-got-a-mate-in-F1-therefore-I-have-credibility-because-he-tells-me-everything-and-you-couldn't-possibly-be-better-informed" deals. Got you.

Quote from Funnybear :

Not only where they running a 'soft' traction control (which, like has been expanded on, most other teams where trying with the reduced cylinder use etc etc. I don't limit all my fire for RBR, but they are the worst.)

Which isn't against the rules...

Quote from Funnybear :

also adaptive temperature related aero

Care to provide any more details? Are you talking about the thermoplastic floor?

Quote from Funnybear :

they where running illegal defusers whenever they felt they could get away with it

Illegal how, exactly? Any proof, other than your F1 'contact'?

Quote from Funnybear :

along with some rather natty and smart, but also illegal tyre rim aero

Like this?

Quote from Funnybear :

along with other temperature/brake/exhaust clever gizmo's.

Unlike the other teams, of course, who never do anything clever. Any more information about these gizmos or how exactly they're illegal?

Quote from Funnybear :

It's an open pitlane secret, most of which can't be proven, but doesn't stop me using them to slag the team off.

That sentence is a good indicator of why you're lumped into the mindless drone.

Quote from Funnybear :

But like I said, the biggest thing that had the teams goat up was the use of the RBR technology centre whilst everyone else was having enforced breaks due to union rules. RBR isn't part of the union, the only team that isn't. The use of technology to over come rules and regs is only to be expected. All the teams do it, and some push it more than others. My mates team actually had to make that choice for this last season just gone, just to be a viable and competitive team. Before that, they played by the rules and where proud of that, but the gap has grown to big between those that don't and those that do. And to maintain large corporate sponsorship you have to run with the pack. That was an executive desicion to push certain boundary's. RBR have no such conscience. The team is based on winning at all costs.

Nothing to do with building illegal cars.

Quote from Funnybear :

And anyway, Webber didn't get all the trick bits Vettel did.

That may be true.

Quote from Funnybear :

There is a reason he doesn't race with them anymore.

He got fed up being a number 2 driver and with the treatment he says he got from the team? Plus he was offered a factory drive in WEC by Porsche?

Quote from Funnybear :

And there is a bigger reason why he signed a non-disclosure contract for the foreseable future, although knowing Mark, that might not count for much with him.

Sounds like a standard part of a driver contract.

Quote from Funnybear :

So, yea, you might think I'm talking out of my arse

Yep.

Quote from Funnybear :

but it's arse talk that comes from an inside perspective.

Yeah, I'll just take your word on that.

Quote from Funnybear :

A perspective that noone will ever talk about too much in the press, because they all like their jobs too much.

You must not read some of the same things that I do then. There's been a lot of coverage in both the 'mainstream' F1 press (e.g. Sky/BBC/Autosport etc) and the more technical F1 press/sites (e.g. F1Technical and SomersF1) analysing teams exploiting potential loopholes in the rules (e.g. flexi front wings, the brake ducts which RBR were asked to modify and RB's 'plastic' front nosecone (spotted during a front wing change at Abu Dhabi last year) to name a few.

Quote from Funnybear :

So slag me off if you like, don't really care.

I care when people think it's OK to throw out baseless rumours and try to claim they're fact. If you're going to say that Vettel's car was illegal at least put some effort in and show us why you think it was. Don't just say "Oh, I've got a mate and he says so, but I can't prove anything because it's a secret".

Quote from Funnybear :

The seasons results and timing figures speak for themselves. If you consider every team is trying to be as fast they possibly can, and they are all professional manufacturers, strategists and drivers then you get an expected timing spread from the second fastest man back. Vettel and that car are outliers. And they can be discounted as such.

Yeah, I totally agree. Every time one driver or team dominates a season they're definitely cheating. It's the only thing that makes sense!

Quote from Funnybear :

I don't believe he's worth four world titles, and I think you could take the slowest driver on the grid and within a few races get him as fast as the lead pack in that car. Vettel might be able to get the most from it, he knowns whats in it for a start, but the car is still the fastest 'car' regardless who is behind the wheel.

I don't necessarily believe he's 'worth' 4 titles either (I can certainly think of a few drivers I consider better off the top of my head that have no titles). However, he's in the right car at the right time and he's making the most of the opportunity. That's all he can really do. However, I think if he decided to move to a lesser team and try to build them up (as Schumacher did when he moved to Ferrari in '96) he might prove some people wrong, but I don't think he'll do that.

Quote from Funnybear :

Sorry. Rant over. I shall return to being a member of the mindless drone prolitariat.

...or you could try and make statements which you can actually support?

Quote from ACCAkut :

time to create my first ever Steam account then. Do they allow payment via paypal?

Yes.

Quote from JackDaMaster :

Most probable idea is that they were only using 4 cylinders mid-corner when the throttle is initially applied (hence why they got on full throttle so much earlier than everyone else). Would also explain the hilarious noise they made in the corners as well.

That's part of the system (along with possibly using KERS). However, many/most teams were using cylinder cut this season and the KERS system explained above isn't against the rules either. Hence why I was asking if Funnybear had any proof that Vettel's car was illegal, or if he was just crowing along with the mindless drone of repetition.

Quote from Funnybear :

Vettels car from last season was already in a different class (I mean that literally not figuratively) by using various amounts of strange and wonderful and not altogether legal technologies *cough* traction control *cough cough*.

Any proof for that assertion, or are you just adding to the mindless drone?

Quote from BlueFlame :

Why? He's known only for driving the number #1 the #27 and I think it was either #12 or #14. Can't remember exactly though.

His number at Williams in '94 was 2.

Quote from BlueFlame :

Where did I say that I didn't believe it? I just said it wasn't really possible which in my retarded syntax means 'difficult'.

Ah, so you're not content with redefining maths, you want to do the same to the English language? I see...all your posts make sense now.

Quote from BlueFlame :

You do know the track, when on track you know whats coming next, but you couldn't possibly remember all 140~ corners by memory in the correct order. It's just not really possible for the human brain to do it.

Quote from amp88 :

Do you still refuse to believe that some people know the Nordschleife corner-by-corner in-sequence from memory, though? That's the annoying claim which you made, and I hope you've come to reconsider it.

Quote from BlueFlame :

I have never refused to believe it. I said if you took pictures and asked someone to order them it would be a struggle to do it and they probably wouldn't get it correct.

...

Quote from BlueFlame :

The difference is you're mentioning ICONIC turns. The landmarks of those particular tracks.

If you read, I specifically gave examples of corners which were memorable and said that even people who are untrained enthusiasts (i.e. most of this forum's members) would be able to picture them. The point was that if even untrained people can do it for memorable corners then why wouldn't trained professionals (i.e. people who make their living driving) be able to do it for all corners on the tracks they regularly drive?

Quote from BlueFlame :

If you mention a relatively minor corner or a corner not alot of people pay attention to such as Stavelot at Spa or Cascades at Oulton or Craner Curves at Donington. But if you gave the corner numbers before the name it's alot harder to visulize depending on what system you're used to of course. [numbers as opposed to corner names]

I struggle to relate corner numbers to corners on real tracks, but I think I'm pretty decent at putting corner names to images of those corners. The thing is that most corners you care to name at F1 tracks that have been in use for any length of time have had incidents occur at them. So, even the 'minor' corners are memorable for the incidents that have occurred there, even if they aren't because they're interesting corners in and of themselves. For instance, during the 2000 Belgian GP (the one in which Hakkinen and Schumacher both passed Zonta up to Kemmel and Hakkinen came out in the lead of the race), Hakkinen had lost the lead earlier when he half-spun on the exit of Stavelot after catching a white line in the damp conditions (I remember that without looking it up, incidentally, but you can choose not to believe that if you wish).

Quote from BlueFlame :

But lets not stray off topic here, my original point was you may not know the track inside out but it doesn't stop you from knowing what corners/sections DO come next. Personally there's too many versions of Nordschleife. GT's epic version, Forzas weird version and rFactors shit version for someone here to say they know it inside out anyway..

Do you still refuse to believe that some people know the Nordschleife corner-by-corner in-sequence from memory, though? That's the annoying claim which you made, and I hope you've come to reconsider it.

Quote from BlueFlame :

If I screamed a random corner number at a random track you think anybody would just instantly know what it was? Of course they wouldn't. They'd have to play out a few corners in their mind before getting close and even then they have a great chance of being wrong.

For the memorable (or oft-mentioned) corners (such as 'turn 8' at Turkey, 'Eau Rouge' at Spa, 'The Corkscrew' at Laguna Seca, 'Skyline' at Bathurst, 'Karussell' at the Nordschleife etc) most of this forum's members would be able to picture them in their minds immediately, without having to visualise the preceding corners or any of the rest of the lap. That's for 'untrained' enthusiasts, not people who make their living from driving. Do you really think it's that difficult for racing drivers to visualise corners in isolation?

Quote from BlueFlame :

There are probably very few techniques where visualizing will a whole lap would help. Nobody is going to simulate [real-time] mentally driving the Nordschleife or Le Sarthe back-straights for instance. They're just focusing on the important aspects, braking points, turn in, peripheral references.

It doesn't really work as an exercise unless you try to do it as close to the real thing as possible, so skipping the straights doesn't make sense. Additionally, just because you're on a straight doesn't mean you're necessarily inactive (i.e. you could be making a brake bias/anti-roll bar etc change (depending on the rules of the category)).

Quote from BlueFlame :

This Loci method only seems to be applicable to those who are gifted with an insanely large and accessible memory bank. But before now I hadn't read anything about that.

Actually, it forms part of the training in a number of memory courses 'normal' people might attend. Just Google for "memory training" and you'll find numerous instances where it's mentioned as part of a course. An aunt of mine (who wouldn't mind me mentioning that she's not especially mentally gifted) used a loci-based course to help her remember a speech that she was going to give so that she didn't need to take notes with her (she was nervous about appearing to read from the notes too much and wanted to give a more fluid delivery). The loci-based method worked particularly well in her case; she remembered the speech flawlessly and the confidence she gained made it easier to overcome her nervousness.

Quote from BlueFlame :

But I think sports people get too much benefit of the doubt in that respect in that they know every aspect of teh track they're racing on and every little camber change and tiny bump. The reality is they probably remember the track just as anyone else would with the same amount of experience on that said track. Just cos they can drive a car fast as hell doesn't make them a superhuman brain too. I mean, look at Maldonado...

Any proof?

Quote from BlueFlame :

If you read.

I actually do read what people write if I intend to comment on what's written, unlike some people.

Quote from BlueFlame :

You'll notice that I said when you're ON the track you'll know whats coming next but it's almost impossible without proper training to recall from your memory alone all 140~ corners because it's theoreticallyimpossible to process 140 images in your mind successively.

Have you never heard of visualisation as a key technique in racing? Drivers often sit in the car before going out on a qualifying run (or even the night before the session) and 'drive' a 'perfect' lap in their mind, before going out to actually attempt to do it. To have any use there has to be a significant degree of detail in this approach, so for many it includes more than just "what corner is coming up next", but things like camber/surface changes, braking/turn-in markers and other points of significance. Again, you don't think professional racing drivers and development drivers who've done thousands or tens of thousands of laps don't know what's coming up next when they're sitting in pitlane or at home? Also, I like the fact that you're now attempting to retroactively qualify what you said so that it basically comes in line with what I said before about professional or development drivers who are clearly 'properly trained' to remember a high degree of detail about the tracks they drive on. However, you still think it's 'theoretically impossible' to remember 140+ successive images.

Quote from BlueFlame :

If you had a picture of each corner of the Nordschleife and were asked to put them all in order I bet even professionals would get a few corners wrong. It's just the way the human brain works.

Ever read anything about the loci memory training method? In essence, it works by training the brain to associate certain keys (such as places, people, memorable objects) with the data you have to remember. Simply put, adding a visual element to the challenge (i.e. giving someone pictures of all the corners and asking them to place them in the correct order) should be significantly easier for the human brain than simply asking someone to visualise a lap in their own mind.

Quote from BlueFlame :

Much like trying to draw a track map from memory on a piece of paper, you'll probably draw something completely shite, but it doesn't mean that you don't know the track like the back of your hand.

It's pretty easy to draw fairly detailed circuit maps of tracks that you've seen hundreds of times before. Even I (as an untrained monkey) could probably draw pretty decent versions of the current F1 tracks that have been in service for 10+ years. I can't think of a way for me to prove that assertion in a fashion that would make cheating impossible, though...

Again, for a driver who does this for a living (a racing or development driver) that skill of recall is quite a crucial part though. Think about when a driver debriefs with their engineer after a session. They communicate corner names/numbers (modern drivers tend to use numbers because it's shorthand) and the behaviour of the car at multiple points (e.g. braking, turn-in, mid-corner, exit) through the corner.

Quote from BlueFlame :

You do know the track, when on track you know whats coming next, but you couldn't possibly remember all 140~ corners by memory in the correct order. It's just not really possible for the human brain to do it.

Are you serious? You're saying that even professional racing drivers and development drivers who have done literally thousands or tens of thousands of laps there don't remember exactly what's coming next? Also, if you think remembering a race track is impossible for the human brain then you really need to take a look at some serious feats of memory recall.

Quote from matijapkc :

Any chance to get more of this pure cargasm awesomeness?

Le Mans 2004 Onboard - Colin McRae Ferrari 550-GTS Maranello

Quote from CheerioDM :

They could use Johnny Depp, Jude Law, and Colin Farrell to finish his scenes.

I see what you did there

Quote from BlueFlame :

Well for the most part a hotlap is invalidated in the game itself first before it even goes to lfsworld.

That in no way is a valid response to my post. Please would you bloody read things? Why do you think I was specifically mentioning LFS World as a source of validation?

Quote from BlueFlame :

I didn't upload the replay. I was under the impression that the main body of the 'cheat protection' was done via the game .exe itself rather than lfsworld web coding.

Totally useless. Why did you think I specifically mentioned checks done on LFS World before? Just because you managed to get grip_h4x.exe working locally means absolutely nothing when it comes to cheating the actual hotlap rankings (which I've been talking about from the start and you agreed with me that that's what we were talking about).

Quote from BlueFlame :

And Ray, what I'm saying is that I was sick of seeing MARUS bust everyones WR's and went on HL mode with some hacks to see if its possible and it is.

So, to be clear, you used some form of hack (e.g. a grip hack), you uploaded the .spr to LFS World hotlaps and the lap was considered valid by LFS World? If so, when did this happen and can you provide a copy of the replay, please?

Quote from BlueFlame :

Yes

So, the part of the process of validation that's done automatically on LFS World to make sure the replay is of a genuine lap wouldn't be able to detect if a grip hack tool (or similar) had been used at the time the replay was recorded? You're saying that it would only be able to detect (through "JOOS - CAR", for example) changes that the player had made to the car model? If that is what you're saying, do you have any proof of that assertion?

Quote from BlueFlame :

Very wrong. LFS has no 3rd party detection. It can only detect if something in the game has been altered. Grip mod etc is undetectable.

To be clear, we're talking about cheating on the LFS World hotlap rank, right?

Quote from BlueFlame :

Plus the multitude of LFS 3rd party shizzle for people there to use is alot different to AC where if you were that adamant on cheating you'd have to code or make some kind of cheat yourself.

Without describing the process the amount of time and knowledge it takes to be able to modify cars in AC is very low at the moment.

Quote from BlueFlame :

What, and it hasn't been possible/always been possible on LFS?

Sure, it's still possible in LFS to cheat on the hotlap rankings, but it's much more difficult (with the detection system on LFS World). I've got no doubt that there will be a similar type of detection system in AC (it just makes sense), but for the moment there isn't.

Being fastest doesn't mean anything when there's no mod detection either. At this point it's easy to, for example, decrease car mass by 50kg and increase power and downforce by a couple of percent. You can make changes that are difficult to detect but will have significant performance impact. Until there's proper mod detection and (hopefully) some form of official leaderboard these hotlap times should be considered entertainment and taken with a pinch of salt.

edit: Note that I'm not actually accusing anyone of cheating to get to the top of leaderboards; I'm just saying that at this point it's possible.

Quote from BlueFlame :

You really think in an f1 engine you can reduce the fuel mixture to cater for a 6hour race without having to downgrade the cam profile? Wow. I'm actually astonished. Sure there is alot of ECU shizzle you can do these days as far as valve timing goes but for such a change you NEED to change the cam profile.

You should email Ferrari's engine department. I'm sure they'd love to know that they're wrong in considering using the same base engine for F1 and WEC.

Quote from R3DMAN :

any ideas?

How much brake pressure are you carrying as you turn in? I'd go back to the default setup and try bleeding off the brake pressure more quickly around the turn-in point to see what difference that makes. For me the back end is definitely quite lively if I'm trying to squeeze laptime out of it and trail-braking as late as possible.

Quote from atledreier :

One could say the same about your posts, though....

I tend not to speak for other people though, that's the difference.

edit: If you look back through BlueFlame's post history it's very easy to find examples of massive generalisations (without sufficient evidence to support them), racism and other examples of prejudiced thought. I think you'd be hard pressed to do the same for my post history.

Last edited by amp88, Mon, 9 Dec 2013 14:01.