I'll upload them when I get home.

There's still 2 months of paying a person to literally do nothing except read code.

Also, Scawen clearly doesn't want to. He wants to do things in the order he feels happy with. He's had chances for people to give wholesale car data, and rejected it because it's not in "his" vision of LFS.

I can respect Scawen for having his own vision for LFS, and not compromising that vision to make a quick buck or to hop on some trend that he's not passionate about. It may not be what we desire, or at the speed we desire, but it was made extremely clear before we purchased our LFS licence that LFS was in development, and that things could change at will.

Quote from Gabox :

That was a good one man. I was laughing my ass off reading this...



You don't have to explain, I do understand what the current situation is.
What I'm saying is that I would love to see LFS going in the iRacing direction. ie. a quality and consistent service run by professionals, instead of laggy and inconsistent user maintained servers, with their own set of rules and weird stuff...

Kristi isn't incorrect.

My boss used to work at a games studio building first party Nintendo games. When they hired a new programmer, they expected 6-8 weeks of uselessness as he gained familiarity with the code base. Then there's assigning this person a task. Then reviewing it to ensure that it is up to a reasonable specification.

Every person you add creates more channels of communication which takes time to manage. Eventually you hit the point where you have people who are literally responsible for simply managing management and doing gant charts just to be able to see what people are doing/when they should deliver something.

As for LFS becoming more like iRacing, I don't understand why you want this. iRacing exists, some people are brainwashed into paying for it, others are smart enough not to. If you like the iRacing model so much... Just play iRacing?

Quote from Gabox :

Look, I'm an experienced programmer myself, and worked in teams consisting of 20-60 people. You can't convince me, that such an amount of people can't be managed, as I have seen it happening. All you need is a competent project manager, and perhaps some good methodology like XP or Scrum. It can be done, but the main problem here, is that Scawen don't want to get involved with this shit. Only god knows why.
You can also get away just be hiring very talented people, and you will see them creating quality stuff without any management. A good example of such a company is Valve.



The current online infrastructure doesn't even come close to what iRacing has. It's a wreck fest, and now also a ghost town. Don't say, that there are no work to be done, because it's not true.

Valve is an unusual anomaly in that they have the luxury of nearly infinite time for projects. Never mind that their process is flawed. DOTA 2 has had strange bugs, out of date tooltips and many other problems for a long time. They have yet to make HL2 episode 3 (or HL3). The most recent major DOTA patch had a game breaking bug where if a specific hero died to a non-hero, the whole game crashed for everyone.

Valve isn't perfect, in fact they are far from it. They need more accountability between projects and teams.

Also, you don't understand what Vic does (obviously). Vic is responsible for LFS' websites along with LFS World's backend. That stuff is all stable.

The servers are run by the users. If a server is a wreck fest, that's not Scaviers problem, that's the server owner. If you don't like that server because there is no admins, join a different server.

So, Vic's maintainence tasks are few and far between because he has built a stable system for all of the various things the LFS sites can do.

Quote from Gabox :

What's wrong with that? Is this a serious question?
Come on dude, this project is going nowhere, and something like this is a great indicator of what is happening behind the scenes.

I myself very much doubt, that underutilization was the problem. It's more likely he was not happy with the money he received from Scawen.

Had they went with the subscription model few years ago, none of this shit would have happened.

Well, good thing that those familiar with LFS know that you're incorrect on all counts.

We know Vic wasn't being utilized for too much because LFS' web services are pretty solid and issue free.


As for your assumption that a subscription model would have saved LFS is frankly ridiculous. It's clear that you're not reading the link I've posted several times in this thread, as it explains real world situations where teams attempted to bring in more programmers to finish a project quicker, when in fact it did the opposite. More money would also yield no gains, as money does not buy problem solving, nor can money actually make anyone write code quicker either.

I don't know why you insist the iRacing model is the future, considering there's a sizeable population who have rejected it for various reasons. Other simulators are being released with more traditional release models and are far superior.

Heh. MadCatX.. GET OUT OF MY HEAD! (We virtually wrote the same post )

Quote from Gabox :

I suppose it's been a while since you played iRacing. Give it a try, and come back sharing your thoughts. I think it's pretty good expecially with tire model version 5 (yes, they already managed to roll out the kind of complex tire model, that Scawen is still working on)

You assume it's been some time since I've tried iRacing. I assure you it hasn't been, and it's still utter and complete garbage.

Quote from Gabox :

Who said that bullshit?
Sure, replacing Scawen with 10 monkeys wouldn't help, but a team with 10 competent people can achieve more than only 3.

No. You're incorrect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

Building software is not the same as bolting together a car. Building a car, adding more people can improve the efficiency. However, with software, communication is critical. With 1 developer, you have 0 lines of communication, thus that developer is aware of all design decisions and ramifications.

With 10 developers, you've made the lines of communication grow exponentially, which adds more delays due to requiring more meetings to coordinate 10 people, more time spent managing what each developer is working on, and more potential for conflicting design decisions to cause chaos.

It's a common middle management mistake to think that you can simply throw more developers at a problem to raise efficiency, defying logic, the opposite actually rings true.

Quote from Gabox :

It's not even MMORPG business model. It's called software as service, an essential part of cloud computing.

Those are the same thing... SaaS is just a buzzword that marketing managers love, as "monthly subscription service" doesn't seem as appealing.

Quote from Gabox :

They are not honest to the community, and not even honest to themselves. Money is a problem, otherwise you wouldn't hear shit like a dev member had to take another part time job to make the living...

Or that Victor's day to day role is very little as the current LFS online infrastructure doesn't require constant attention as it's reasonably stable and now quite resilient to attacks.

Again, you keep trying to convince us that subscription model is "the future" and that LFS is moving towards that, when there is literally no proof or even reasonable prediction to back this up. It's ridiculous.

Last edited by dawesdust_12, Tue 6 May 2014, 08:39.

Not a gif, but hilarious: (It's not long enough to belong in video thread)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OGtnj9C7v0

I even linked the bible of "moar devs !== moar productivity" in this thread!

Quote from Gabox :

But you do know, that in 20 years, 95% of cars manufactured will be pure electric? Why? If something doesn't make sense anymore, it is slowly replaced by a new, and more efficient paradigm. There are pioneers like Tesla, but others will join soon.

For me iRacing is the Tesla of racing sims...

Except your comparison is imperfect:

The reason cars will eventually turn to electricity is not because it makes sense as current battery technology is heavy and requires a lot of batteries to provide adequate power. Never mind that batteries do have a finite life span, and do eventually fail to hold a charge.

Cars will eventually turn to being primarily electricity because we will simply run out of fuel. Oil is not a renewable resource (without millions of years of time).

iRacing aren't pioneers. They're just arrogant enough to think that people will pay them monthly for subpar physics. The wiser ones have abandoned iRacing as they've realized how terrible it truly is. Eventually iRacing will be left with a decrepit pit of users, crying every week, saying that "Kaermer will bring us good physics next build!"

And then the next build never comes...

Quote from Gabox :

Yeah it is expensive but a quality service. And the quality is ensured by the monthly subscription fee, that allows them to keep the service healthy each month.

Pay once, play forever model is simply not efficient for massive multiplayer games like racing sims.

Check out my similar thread in the AC forum for more details:

http://www.assettocorsa.net/fo ... ac-is-not-a-service.8253/

Suggesting that iRacing "got it" would mean that all of us play iRacing and AC and LFS aren't required to continue development as everyone plays iRacing.

It's pretty obvious that isn't the case, so to suggest every racing sim to go to a service model, would be like suggesting every motorcycle to become a trike, because 1 manufacturer makes trikes.

Good thing all of Racer Y's posts come with a simple tl;dr of:

"Ignore me."

I've been around LFS for 10 years. I understand how to yield to faster drivers. It's a skill that others would benefit to learn.

Quote from Deutschland2007 :

It's not hard to have a clean race when the number of starters can be counted with the fingers on your hand.

I'm pretty sure if we put both Kingsburys on the track together, they could muster a 10+ safety car race.

In 50 laps.

Ok.

Quote from Bmxtwins :

I will compete in the LFSCart, but I hope oval rounds will not be on the schedule, with the exception maybe of some autocross oval.

Oval behavior last season was horrid.

Correction:

Oval behaviour between the non-LFSCART competitors was horrid.

The KY1R oval race was quite clean.

Quote from Rpbert :

Sorry folks. LFS is dead. It isn't coming back this year or the next. It just isn't. A post on a forum from one of the devs in 2003 should be an indicator. Like others, im loving the denial.

You must be great fun at parties.

Troll.

Quote from MadCatX :

Brilliant! Apparently I was wrong thinking that the conspiracy theories about frozen LFS development cannot get any crazier

Challenge accepted!

Quote from vitaly_m :

I am looking forward to LFSCART. And personally I prefer not to have Kyoto 500 in the champ schedule. Nothing wrong with ovals, but 2 hours race is not for me... Also, there will be lots of those who want to participate in Ky500, but not the LFSCART.

Having some usual ~145 laps oval race is not bad though.

I enjoyed the KY1R race. It was something different and enjoyable.

Quote from Kristi :

Thanks for the help, I really appeciate it

People say that the forum isn't helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

Everyone who seems to think more people == mre development should read that.

Quote from Mustangman759 :

oh that's why there was so many yellows then

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Quote from Mustangman759 :

Even you should be able to qualify in this year!

I qualified last year...

Don't care whether or not the KY500 is in or not but I'm in to make sure the safety car gets used.