Quote from tristancliffe :

Maybe we should go back to S1 - non-wearing tyres, and non-changing cars, and then we can just use a macro to drive us around...

I know some that do want that and I'm not totally against it either for short quick races. But I prefer and always have prefered longer races and in such races the more variables that can come into play the more challenging and interesting such races will be and therefore for me at least the more fun they will be

And rainbowed coloured tracks uugh!

If you had chaos because of wind and none was willing to slow down it might take another race or two but eventually the mob will realise to take it slightly easier the first few laps till then know how the wind is effecting them.

Depending on how well you know a track it is pretty easy to work out how wind is effecting you, simply make metal notes before hand in practise what your top speeds are at the end of each straight that in combination with wind direction from observing a flag or two and your set

I actually find it more engaging when you have to think about such things Imagine for a moment what it would be like if grip levels on the track changed throughout the race or even from lap to lap...

Quote from Oxygene :

I would like to see a feature in lfsw where you could pick an username and it would show all the races you have done with that user. I am a bit stats freak but i sometimes just browse my old race details and then check the usernames if they still do LFS, with this feature you could do it the other way around.

I was just about to make this vary suggestion. Would be useful and fun for those of us that have been around for awhile.

I got to know a bloke that I was racing with the other night and he said he had seen me around over the years I went back through his online race details (took me 20-30mins) and found I first had raced with him back in july '04 Would be cool if we could do searches like that in seconds

I wonder how many who complain about too low grip have ever exceeded all available traction on approach to a corner in real life, gravel or bitchemen I've come close on bitchemen but have had several big moments and written off a car or two on gravel. And I can tell you that when you exceed your traction budget by an appreciable margin it does feel like soap!

Having said that LFS does need attention at lower speeds.

Quote from Jakg :

I'm not sure if you can with TH2Go as it feels windows into thinking you have 1 huge monitor...

TH2G comes with a utility that allows maximised programs to be snaped to a specific monitor. Most programs handle it well but a few do funny things the first time you fire them up but once they have saved default layouts there fine (Photoshop CS for example)

The TH2G might seem like an expensive option but to get the same sort of frame rates I get with a TH2G on softTH I'd have to spend at least the same amount if not more than the cost of a TH2G.

Three screen with high frame rate is good I do find it a lot different, it enables me to drive in a much more natural way. I.e. with a single screen you are always compromising something, either sense of speed or precision (view distorting) with tripple screens you can retain good perception as well as have good visual sense of speed.

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I like the idea guys Hopefully it will take off with regulars frequenting the server 24/7

I'll be sure to give it a bash some time aussie time Have been racing the XRR in 1hr 30min races abit recently so 35min will be a good "pick up proper race"

I also don't mind the TBO's so gives some good variety on the one server.

Quote from racerboy59 :

Me too. I want to know when someone plans to crash into my car on T1, and every other corner

What, You don't have that psychic ability yet? Back to demo then until you have mastered the art!

Quote from durbster :

Up Broome way? We lived there for a couple of months during the wet season and also worked and lived on a pearl farm up near Beagle Bay. One of the happiest times of my life

Nope even further up was born in Wyndham, and grew up in Kununurra long before anyone new about the town or the surrounding regions. And yes it was much better then than now

And as for aboriginals living like westerners, why would they want to? I often as a young boy desired to live off the land and live a simple life especially in the rich land of the north.

Quote from durbster :

Not a huge amount but I've seen all sides of Australia and I feel that's enough to make some kind of judgement. I spent a bit of time living and working in remote areas so met some of the people living away from the towns.

What really struck me about it all was how happy the tourist board are to use Aboriginal imagery on their adverts and yet, you land in Sydney and there isn't a hint of Aboriginal culture to be seen.

Most of what people knew seemed to be from second hand stories and cheap journalistic bollocks from Today Tonight. I don't know how many people told us not to go to Alice Springs because it was a certainty we'd be stabbed and killed. And it was always people who had never been there.

Fair enough was just making sure your not full of shit sorry to hear that you met so many that had opinions and yet hadn't been anywhere. I can asure you we are certainly not all like that, I grew up in the very north of Western Australia and have been around aboriginals my whole life, many who I have had as friends. Most of the misconceptions come from people that spend their entire lives in the cities (both sides) and is normally mixed with youth

O/T Today tonight is tabaliod trash imo I never believe a single word I hear on that show infact mock the tactics they use to gain sensationalised stories

Quote from durbster :

mostly by people who just don't have a clue. It's quite astonishing how little the average Australian knows about their culture and the problems out there.

Out of curosity what is your first had experience with aboriginals?

Very much over exaggerated I think

We have many cultures living side by side mostly in harmony with the odd flare up here and there, but nothing really to speak of - unless you like to hang out in seedy spots...

How can we hate all non-whites we are a dying bred

I'm fifth generation Aussie, have had very good friends that were aboriginal, Asian, Italian, Greek, Argentinean, Yugoslavia, German, South African, etc - need I go on

When you say outback what do you mean remote part of Australia if so where are you thinking? Do you have any relatives here now?

I agree with Framaris's take and now as I am just about to make post patrese. Race incident in my book both patrese and Ring could have done abit more to avoid incident but in heat of battle errors are made were all human

I believe patrese was aware that Ring would be aggressive under brakes and therefore was making a defensive move to make his pass stick. In my eyes patrese's only error was that he braked hard straight away and perhaps should have come on the brakes slightly more gentley at that point to allow more time for Ring to brake. Ring on the other hand could have braked slightly earlier than normal knowing that the xrg brakes earlier than the xfg, but he was probably thinking he still could challenge on the outside planning a switchback to go up the inside at the exit of the corner either way just too good drivers pushing hard and this time not pulling it off, race incident.

Physics updates will be interesting but I imagine it will not be quick to do, as changing one thing can have so many effects elsewhere. For example I can foresee that changing how tyres behave fundamentally could have effects on how tyres heat and cool (especially non-driven wheels), wear rates, car balancing (think GTR and TBO's ) etc. So it most likely will require a lot of testing and tweaking. But that is all stuff that I'd really welcome so Scavier take your time and when it is ready bring it on!

Quote from Furryappleseed :

Question I have is why does one who uses manual clutch not want to drive against someone who is. Reading previous post I cant really pinpoint it because if its not for the position and is just for realism, then why does it matter if you are on a pub server with other people using different control types?

I'll try make it clearer for you, I think you will find a lot don't race for the win. This does not mean we don't enjoy winning or that we don't try to better ourselves to win more often, it just means we enjoy a good scrap with racers of similar ability. If I'm right at the back of the field but there is someone who is fighting with me for position then even if we come last and second last it is a good race. Conversely if I'm in the top three and I'm scraping for 2nd place I'm just as content too if we scrap to the end as if I pass him and go on to win. On the other hand if I pull away from everyone and win comfortably I wouldn't call that a good race.

So what are the factors that set the tone for a good scrap then and why do I prefer to race against human in preference to AI? (this game or other games)

It's a genuine question.

The main reason I prefer to race against humans is because they are not robots! What I mean is that humans will make mistakes, they will buckle under pressure, they will get tired, etc They have a WILL. The most thrilling part about racing is a battle of wills, not one being superior to another in skills or equipment, etc which is why so many see LFS as a great platform to race on.

That's one component of the question for me, the other is the oportunity for those things to transpire. In LFS we have cars that are pretty equal which leads to two drivers of equal skills having a good race, in the LFS environment at the moment drivers can make errors so the above does happen to a certain extent (that's why I'm here!) but I beleive it could happen to a much greater extent with more variables in play. Variables like less perfect road surfaces, dynaically variable grip levels due to sand, deberis, rubber laid down and track temperature variations. Variables such as better representation of tyre wear / damage, wheather conditions and vehicale damage. All these things would make it more dificult to do perfect lap after lap which in turn when you put two people of similar ability together it will ensure a closer more thrilling race, rather than a close race until one opens a small gap only for it to stay that way for the rest of the race.

Now that leads me to this option suggestion. Using a clutch H-Pattern setup does throw an extra variable into the mix in that it opens up another avenue of error for a driver. Therefore racing against other clutch H-Pattern users is exciting because you will both likely make small mistakes and your shifting times, braking manouvers etc are all going to be more variable than other methods of driving. This adds to the excitement of a good scrap with another equal competitor imeasurably. It's something that is hard to explain, hopefully this discription helps.

It does not mean that if we choose to race this way (if it's available) that we are better or any such thing, all it means is that we can experience racing to the best of what our setup allows. This does not necessarily have to be on packed servers, I for one have always had my best battles on servers with less than 15 people racing often with only 3 to 6 people are needed. Numbers don't mean as much to me as finding people of similar ability, hence why I'm in favour of such options even if it will only be used by a minority.

I'm not deluded enough to think any feature that is suggested immediately becomes a priority for Scawen to add to LFS. All the improvement section of the forum really is for is a place were people can get off their chest an idea they might have in a way that doesn't interupt Scawen from his main job such as OT posts in the test patch forum, 99.999% of the ideas that are posted have been posted before.

I'm sure that Scawen has well and truely hashed out the direction he wants to take LFS. On occassion though a thread title or one of the people he communicates with might point him to a particular thread, and he might make note of it. But other than that I'd has it a guess that the majority of what goes on in here goes pretty much unnoticed.

I've submited what I consider a pretty serious bug report more than a year ago, never got a reply to the post or a pm (I also pm'd Bob about it and he left a message for Scawen) so I know that it would have been noted and that Scawen probably was already aware of it but because it would upset so much in the way of HL an such I'm sure it will get addressed at some stage when a major physics overhaul takes place.

So I wouldn't worry too much about any I'll advised changes being made to LFS that will alienate you all, because the whole process is much slower than that and hence will ensure that the stupid idea's don't get through

The question remains though what Scawen thinks is stupid is most likely different to what you or I think is stupid

Quote from tristancliffe :

We could get rid of a lot of LFS (and any other game for that matter) if we ONLY supported what the majority wants.

Yes thankfully Scawen has never been dictated by what the majority want but more by what vission he has for LFS.

FCV wasn't a waste for me at all, in fact it has brought more life to LFS for me! I always used custom wheel draw view for years (partly for fps but also partly for easier precision in placing your car on the track), it was the introduction of FCV that got me out of that rut to try something different and I am now comfortable and enjoy cockpit view more than any other view now.

Scawen is currently looking with some interest at the shadow system and how it behaves on linux machines. I'm guessing the population of linux users who run LFS on there machines is pretty much a minority group also, so the whole arhument about majority rules is pretty mute.

And as I've said I've already enjoyed racing on a clutch H-pattern forced server with FCV and no helps etc and enjoyed it a great deal even though there wasn't many people on the server. The dynamics are just different and is something worthwhile even if it is for a minority group imo.

Did the test as described on pause

Ubuntu 9.04
Wine 1.1.25
nVidia Driver Ver 180

Test with 20 AI KY2 XFR and TV camera view looking at 6 or 7 cars just after start paused
Standard shadows 8.1fps
Test shadows 25.0fps!

Cockpit view on start grid 20 AI KY2 XFR (not paused)
Standard Shadows 3.0fps
Test shadows 10.8fps

On my new PC with Win XP there is negligible difference between test and std

Some combinations seem to have bigger differences than others

20 AI KY2 LX6 (Paused) TV Camera View
Standard Shadows 19.6fps
Test shadows 23.0fps

20 AI KY2 LX6 (Paused) In car Cockpit View
Standard Shadows 15.5fps
Test shadows 34.0fps!

20 AI BL1 LX6 (Paused) TV Camera View
Standard Shadows 14.2fps
Test shadows 16.1fps

20 AI BL1 LX6 (Paused) In car Cockpit View
Standard Shadows 19.3fps
Test shadows 29.5fps

20 AI BL1 LX6 (Un_Paused) In car Cockpit View Average up to 1st sector
Standard Shadows Average 8.0fps
Test shadows Average 13.0fps

So fps is also significantly faster in paused mode...

Last edited by Glenn67, Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:36.

Um can I have an option to filter out all the drift an cruise servers and I'd love an option to filter for server country of origin too, while we are talking about options

But I guess all the above arguments for not having a clutch only option (except for the point regarding hardware equality) could be said about these options also

Quote from pik_d :

Even if you refuse to agree with most of my points, what about the last one?

Ah but I do understand your points and even agree with several of them in different aspects I just still have a differing opinion about the possible end outcomes (and yes it is only an opinion) I also agree with your last point which if you read closely my previous posts in this thread you may be able to acertain that I'd concede this point - doesn't stop me from wanting to discuss it though

But following your logic to the extreme (as you are following our logic to the extreme) would mean that none of us should have LFS at all beacuse there are many individuals in the world that can not afford a good enough PC to run LFS properly or internet connection to allow low ping racing let alone a wheel. So it's not fair to them that we can so therefore we should rally and get Scawen to dumb down LFS so it will run on even the slowest PC's so all who want to race can no matter what there circustance.

If the out cry was because a certain segment of the community was demanding that a change be made that would exclude even a small segment from using LFS at all that would be different, but when your just talking of an option in which a small but loyal portion of the LFS community would get some enjoyment out of without excluding anyone else from enjoying LFS in the way they currently do I just don't get it.

Quote from h3adbang3r :

If you are so bent on realism and that everyone on the planet can afford a $300 wheel, why not buy a real car and race it on a real track with other real cars?

Um Tristan does that already along with many others on this forum!

For me though I am a part owner of business which is not just within normal business hours and is growing and expanding rapidly, then I also develop properties when I'm not running our business which uses up all remaining funds and spare time I might have (I do the majority of the work myself ). So when I do play a game, I take it serious because for me I get fun out of treating it like real as I don't really have the opportunity to pursue racing in my day to day life (as that would take up too much time and cost a lot more than a sim rig, computer and some software, this time and money I choose to spend on developing houses to prepare for retirement). That may change in the future but it's not what I can or want to do now. I can though spend a small amount of money (to me) on a racing rig and choose to treat sims in a perhaps more serious manner which doesn't mean that only 'sucessful' (I treat that term very lightly becuase finacial sucess means nothing without other more important things being present in ones family and life also) people can do what I do, I know numerous people (some unemployed, some on disability pensions and others that work in a more normal way. Some single, some married with kids and guess what they all can and many do have similar setups to my own it comes down to the choices they have made).

I already spend a lot of my 'LFS time' on a wheel only server, but this doesn't mean I don't spend any time on other servers, I do. But I like the choice! And racing against all wheel users or all clutch users is different I know because I've tried it, which isn't to say I don't enjoy racing against people that don't use wheels, it's just different and another enjoyable choice that LFS offers. In much the same way as LFS offers drift servers, cruise servers, demo derby servers, cops an robbers servers, road cars, to f1, rallycross, autocross, oval to road courses, etc. To me all those choices don't offer much choice to me as I personally don't enjoy many of those choices or have any interest at all in them. (i.e. cruise, drifting, oval, open wheelers, etc) my preference is for road cars, so I choose to spend all my time on race servers mostly in road cars, I don't begrudge the rest of the users that choose to spend the bulk of there time on drift servers, oval racing, driving the open wheelers, etc I infact have great respect for many of them - especially the ones that are commited and are good at what they do.

There was a time I would have argued against all that choice though thinking it fragments the community (i.e. like when we went from S1 to S2) but times have changed, I know there are many that have moved on from LFS some because they felt all the added features in LFS took away from the pure racing that was around in S1 days to others that have lost interest and moved on because they find LFS isn't hard core enough for there taste. I now believe that the more choice LFS has the more people will remain and perhaps many return to enjoy it in the future.

I personally have no issue even with server options that would allow S1H style racing conditions through to ultra hard core options. I would choose to race on S1H style servers sometimes and I would choose to race on ultra hard core servers sometimes but I'd probably still end up racing mostly on wheel only servers. The thing is I'd enjoy each of the different options in different ways and in varying amounts.

I guess some people welcome choice while others will fear it

Quote from hp999 :

Then Logitech MoMo owners(like me) woun't have even a chance to race/cruise at most of the servers.

Yes you would, the vast majority of drivers on LFS still would not have three pedal set ups so it is extremely unlikely that more than a mere handful of server operators would even consider forced clutch let alone implement it

@ Tristian I agree with your analysis of pedals 100% and that is pretty much my long term plane for my sim rig

Last edited by Glenn67, Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:42.